03-28-2006, 04:26 PM
Cleoboltra's 1.10-release day raid-healing final build.
Maybe someday I'll go nuts and spec for healing PvP power, picking up some of those juicy talents that would make her unbelievably hard to kill, but that's for a future time. I did allow myself the luxury of Holy Nova, since I can argue it has a few PvE raid applications while also being a godsend in PvP (rank 1 stealth-breaker and flag-cap preventer FTW! Suck it, rogues!).
You'll notice no more Mental Strength; after weeks of staring at different specs, I'm just not sold on it anymore. I will miss my 9000 mana pool in raid buffs, but Mongo's right in that it's overkill. Spiritual Guidance is just so uber; it scales with your gear, and actually (gasp) gives you more offense as well! Shame on me for thinking that way (*slap*).
Still, Mental Agility is an absolute MUST and I'm frankly surprised you didn't get it, Mongo. It's not just for Renews, as you well know. Critical spells like Shield, Dispel, Abolish Disease, Inner Fire, and of course scores more that are all instant-cast benefit from Mental Agility. These are all spells you can't go down a level to gain efficiency on like the heal spells. I'm aware you made a number of sacrifices to give yourself more healing power, and you do have better gear than Cleoboltra does (having all of BWL on farm status for months now), but I think you'll still find yourself gasping for mana too often.
Martydom I can't blame you for, playing on a PvP server where you're randomly attacked all the time. That's one of my "man, I wish I could get that for PvP" talents. Some rogue appears to gank you? Laugh in their face as you heal away their initial damage, uninterrupted...
I no longer care about Improved Prayer of Healing. It's used too rarely, and when I do use it I tend to use it with Inner Focus. With the new 3-minute cooldown, meh.
I'm still debating Silent Resolve. It's a must for Shadow Priests. Can I make the argument that I don't need it (Subtlety/Silent Resolve) anymore and it's my tank's fault if I get aggro? I've yet to pull aggro ever in BWL on Broodlord, Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor with the pre-1.10 Subtlety. If I had 5 pieces of Transcendence, I'd be a bit more comfortable ditching Silent Resolve because I'd have my "backup" fade to rely upon. Chromaggus gave me two good whackings last night thanks to Time Lapse, despite my Fading (yay, soulstones). I could remove three points from Silent Resolve and dump them into Improved Power Word: Shield. But can I afford to? I don't know!
You can't deny that aggro reduction talents will help for Razorgore, the Suppression Room, and Nefarian Phase 1 (we got to Phase 2 last night, woo hoo!). What are aggro issues like in AQ40? Fights with lots of adds are always the most dangerous to us.
I'm also somewhat surprised that you'd get Spiritual Guidance without getting Divine Spirit, Mongo. You can make the argument that there's always going to be some other Priest in your raid with Divine Spirit, and you'd be right. But what about when you're not raiding? Divine Spirit will increase your damage when soloing, increase your healing in a small raid or 5-man, and of course provide you with that extra mana regen. All for one point. If you're getting Mental Agility, you have to get Divine Spirit, which I did. And I can't see myself NOT getting Mental Agility (see above).
Given the chance, I'd love to pick up all the Holy tree talents that you chose. But I can't. So, Mongo, where you and I disagree is on three points, all Discipline-tree related:
1) The power of Mental Agility
2) The usefulness of Divine Spirit
3) Wand Specialization vs. Unbreakable Will
Greater Heal will definitely become the spell of choice for healing tanks. Before, Greater Heal was too long a cast to be safe under most conditions, unless it was also backed up by other Priests using Flash Heal to stabilize the tank (talking BWL here). There is one little catch here, though: Mana Conserve breaking in 1.10.
Now that Blizzard's disabled the StopCasting power, we can't use Mana Conserve anymore. Wasting a Greater Heal because someone else nailed a heal on the target 0.1 seconds before you did is going to cost quite a bit more than if you were flash healing. Fights like Firemaw where you have lots of healers raining them down on the MT are going to be somewhat brutal. I know our "guild"'s healers have discussed dropping down to lower ranks of heal/greater heal there and just spamming them constantly, to keep a continuous steady stream of heals on the MT, but that might not be good enough to handle a damage spike like a Shadowflame/crit/crit combo that can eat off 7000 hit points in a flash. The mana pool must be extended for fights like that, especially in a guild like mine that doesn't have its tanks decked out in BWL gear yet.
Agree with you, except for the Mental Agility thing.
I'd rather have the Mental Agility. Renews will cost 10% less mana to cast. If the target's at 100% health, the extra healing power is wasted and I've blown more of my mana pool; if someone else casts another Renew on the target, the extra healing power is wasted and I've blown more of my mana pool.
Again, it's a difference in style that you and I have. There are situations where yours is better, and situations where mine is, but your next point always stands true. :)
I really wish Blizzard would fix this. Supposedly Renew's tick value will no longer be affected by swapping equipment around after you cast it (was this 1.10 or 1.11, can't remember), so maybe that's a step toward the game being able to calculate which Renew is REALLY stronger.
Likewise, Neriad can't "rank down" her dispel, abolish disease, PW:S, etc spells, so they're all costing her 10% more mana. It adds up in a dispel-heavy fight. If Priesting were all just pure healing and nothing else, it would rock. But I feel there's too many intangibles to dismiss the power of 10% cheaper instant cast spells.
Also, when you're soloing and 5-manning, you lose Divine Spirit. This would help you regen more, give you more +heal, let you do more damage (even if it's just with SW:Pain), and help your partymates who use mana as well.
My philosophy has always been "mix, mix, mix." A mixture of healing power, regeneration, and mana pool. Specializing in any one of the three leaves you weak in the other two areas. My initial build was heavy in mana pool but weak in the healing department, but I think yours is too weak in the regeneration/mana pool department. Perhaps you have the gear to make up for it.
As far as crits go, *crits are never wasted*, since I didn't spend mana on the extra healing. When healing tanks, my crits are actually very rarely blown as overhealing, since by the time I'm flash healing they're usually down 1500-2000 hit points or more (percentage-wise, not a large amount of their life). My Flash Heals crit for around 1900-2000 at the moment. You can't "waste" a crit because it never cost you additional mana in the first place. You can "waste" an Inner Focus trying to get a crit, but otherwise crits are a passive entity that fire off depending on your gear and spec. Take advantage of that.
Mana efficiency vs. real-world usefulness is always an issue. Otherwise we'd all have been casting Greater Heal all the time before 1.10, right? :) I think that's the crux of our different specs; you're saying yours is more healing-efficient, which I can't argue - but I'm saying mine (well, my new one) will have more real-world use.
As a Priest who operated without Subtlety pre-1.10, I'd be interested in hearing how much of a difference you noted in fights with lots of adds (Razorgore, Nefarian Phase 1, when things go wrong in 5-man groups). Do you use at least 5 pieces of Trans as well? I only have 4 at the moment. Did you need Subtlety when The Core was still learning these encounters? I know you also didn't have the edge of Blessing of Salvation, so it would have been even more critical for you.
I would love to dump out points in Silent Resolve to get Improved PW:Shield. But I can't decide.
Lightwell sucks. The most mana efficient heal spell ever, but way too limited in scope to be useful beyond certain sporadic occurances. <disclaimer>In my opinion.</disclaimer>
Meh. Cleoboltra can't farm. Getting Wand Specialization will only be of use when soloing, and I just don't solo with her anymore. It's too painful. Sure, I USE my wand in parties and raids, as something to do when I'm not healing, but Wand Specialization isn't going to turn me into a DPS'er. Who am I kidding? My job is to enable others to kill things faster and more safely.
Last time I actually "farmed" anything solo with Cleoboltra was a month or so ago when I wanted to get a few Essences of Water. Chinese Farmers, decked out in greens, were outpacing me 2 to 1. God forbid an epicly-geared Rogue would have come along, or they'd have cleaned out the place before I could get 2 mobs. Remember, I'm not on a PvP server where I could just kill them if they were on the opposite faction in order to get them out of "my spot."
Meanwhile, every time Onyxia fears and I resist it, I laugh (remember, I'm on "easy mode" and keep my tank Fear Warded). Every time a warrior charges me in AV and I resist it, I laugh. Every time a rogue tries to keep me in stunlock and fails, I laugh. I think I even resisted a BWL Wyrmguard's stomp once. Yes, it's more PvP than PvE oriented, but there are cases in raids where it shines - I can keep healing while other healers are stunned and save the day. You and I both know it's those "little things" that add up to wipe-savers.
-Bolty
Maybe someday I'll go nuts and spec for healing PvP power, picking up some of those juicy talents that would make her unbelievably hard to kill, but that's for a future time. I did allow myself the luxury of Holy Nova, since I can argue it has a few PvE raid applications while also being a godsend in PvP (rank 1 stealth-breaker and flag-cap preventer FTW! Suck it, rogues!).
You'll notice no more Mental Strength; after weeks of staring at different specs, I'm just not sold on it anymore. I will miss my 9000 mana pool in raid buffs, but Mongo's right in that it's overkill. Spiritual Guidance is just so uber; it scales with your gear, and actually (gasp) gives you more offense as well! Shame on me for thinking that way (*slap*).
Still, Mental Agility is an absolute MUST and I'm frankly surprised you didn't get it, Mongo. It's not just for Renews, as you well know. Critical spells like Shield, Dispel, Abolish Disease, Inner Fire, and of course scores more that are all instant-cast benefit from Mental Agility. These are all spells you can't go down a level to gain efficiency on like the heal spells. I'm aware you made a number of sacrifices to give yourself more healing power, and you do have better gear than Cleoboltra does (having all of BWL on farm status for months now), but I think you'll still find yourself gasping for mana too often.
Martydom I can't blame you for, playing on a PvP server where you're randomly attacked all the time. That's one of my "man, I wish I could get that for PvP" talents. Some rogue appears to gank you? Laugh in their face as you heal away their initial damage, uninterrupted...
I no longer care about Improved Prayer of Healing. It's used too rarely, and when I do use it I tend to use it with Inner Focus. With the new 3-minute cooldown, meh.
I'm still debating Silent Resolve. It's a must for Shadow Priests. Can I make the argument that I don't need it (Subtlety/Silent Resolve) anymore and it's my tank's fault if I get aggro? I've yet to pull aggro ever in BWL on Broodlord, Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor with the pre-1.10 Subtlety. If I had 5 pieces of Transcendence, I'd be a bit more comfortable ditching Silent Resolve because I'd have my "backup" fade to rely upon. Chromaggus gave me two good whackings last night thanks to Time Lapse, despite my Fading (yay, soulstones). I could remove three points from Silent Resolve and dump them into Improved Power Word: Shield. But can I afford to? I don't know!
You can't deny that aggro reduction talents will help for Razorgore, the Suppression Room, and Nefarian Phase 1 (we got to Phase 2 last night, woo hoo!). What are aggro issues like in AQ40? Fights with lots of adds are always the most dangerous to us.
I'm also somewhat surprised that you'd get Spiritual Guidance without getting Divine Spirit, Mongo. You can make the argument that there's always going to be some other Priest in your raid with Divine Spirit, and you'd be right. But what about when you're not raiding? Divine Spirit will increase your damage when soloing, increase your healing in a small raid or 5-man, and of course provide you with that extra mana regen. All for one point. If you're getting Mental Agility, you have to get Divine Spirit, which I did. And I can't see myself NOT getting Mental Agility (see above).
Given the chance, I'd love to pick up all the Holy tree talents that you chose. But I can't. So, Mongo, where you and I disagree is on three points, all Discipline-tree related:
1) The power of Mental Agility
2) The usefulness of Divine Spirit
3) Wand Specialization vs. Unbreakable Will
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:On the other hand, my philosophy is this: If you're not running out of mana, further mana efficiency is unnecessary. I am assuming at this point that Greater Heal will become the dominant means by which priests heal in raids from now on. Currently, most raids use the Flash Heal spam method to heal their tanks even though Greater Heal is currently (theoretically) 10% more mana efficient than Flash Heal. But GH's efficiency is getting another natural 10% mana efficiency boost in the next patch. Plus, Improved Healing will make it another 15% more mana efficient on top of that. Putting it all together, that will make the new Greater Heal healing method 31% more mana efficient than the Flash Heal spam method most raids currently employ.
Greater Heal will definitely become the spell of choice for healing tanks. Before, Greater Heal was too long a cast to be safe under most conditions, unless it was also backed up by other Priests using Flash Heal to stabilize the tank (talking BWL here). There is one little catch here, though: Mana Conserve breaking in 1.10.
Now that Blizzard's disabled the StopCasting power, we can't use Mana Conserve anymore. Wasting a Greater Heal because someone else nailed a heal on the target 0.1 seconds before you did is going to cost quite a bit more than if you were flash healing. Fights like Firemaw where you have lots of healers raining them down on the MT are going to be somewhat brutal. I know our "guild"'s healers have discussed dropping down to lower ranks of heal/greater heal there and just spamming them constantly, to keep a continuous steady stream of heals on the MT, but that might not be good enough to handle a damage spike like a Shadowflame/crit/crit combo that can eat off 7000 hit points in a flash. The mana pool must be extended for fights like that, especially in a guild like mine that doesn't have its tanks decked out in BWL gear yet.
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:But that's not all. Mediation is now available early in the Discipline tree. Back when I was holy/disc spec'd and had Meditation plus 3-piece transcendence (a combined 30% mana regeneration while casting), I basically never ran out of mana. Toss in an Inner Focus when you need to cast an expensive spell like Prayer of Healing, and spending the talent points to get Mental Agility and Mental Strength seem overkill.
Agree with you, except for the Mental Agility thing.
I'd rather have the Mental Agility. Renews will cost 10% less mana to cast. If the target's at 100% health, the extra healing power is wasted and I've blown more of my mana pool; if someone else casts another Renew on the target, the extra healing power is wasted and I've blown more of my mana pool.
Again, it's a difference in style that you and I have. There are situations where yours is better, and situations where mine is, but your next point always stands true. :)
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:Plus, yeah, I hate casting a Renew on somebody only to have the game tell me that a "more powerful" renew is already active.
I really wish Blizzard would fix this. Supposedly Renew's tick value will no longer be affected by swapping equipment around after you cast it (was this 1.10 or 1.11, can't remember), so maybe that's a step toward the game being able to calculate which Renew is REALLY stronger.
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:But what if Neriad really needs that extra staying power in a really long fight? The solution is simple: Drop down a rank in one's healing spells. By dropping down a rank, Neriad will have heals that are just as strong as Cleoboltra's and her mana efficiency will be such that she could actually cast more Greater Heals before she runs out of mana than Cleoboltra will be able to, despite Cleoboltra's advantage in having an extra 10% mana. Meanwhile, Cleoboltra will never have the option to go the other way. That is, if Cleoboltra ever finds herself in a situation where she needs to heal very quickly, she can never "rank up" her healing spells and match Neriad's healing strength.
Likewise, Neriad can't "rank down" her dispel, abolish disease, PW:S, etc spells, so they're all costing her 10% more mana. It adds up in a dispel-heavy fight. If Priesting were all just pure healing and nothing else, it would rock. But I feel there's too many intangibles to dismiss the power of 10% cheaper instant cast spells.
Also, when you're soloing and 5-manning, you lose Divine Spirit. This would help you regen more, give you more +heal, let you do more damage (even if it's just with SW:Pain), and help your partymates who use mana as well.
My philosophy has always been "mix, mix, mix." A mixture of healing power, regeneration, and mana pool. Specializing in any one of the three leaves you weak in the other two areas. My initial build was heavy in mana pool but weak in the healing department, but I think yours is too weak in the regeneration/mana pool department. Perhaps you have the gear to make up for it.
As far as crits go, *crits are never wasted*, since I didn't spend mana on the extra healing. When healing tanks, my crits are actually very rarely blown as overhealing, since by the time I'm flash healing they're usually down 1500-2000 hit points or more (percentage-wise, not a large amount of their life). My Flash Heals crit for around 1900-2000 at the moment. You can't "waste" a crit because it never cost you additional mana in the first place. You can "waste" an Inner Focus trying to get a crit, but otherwise crits are a passive entity that fire off depending on your gear and spec. Take advantage of that.
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:I really badly want Lightwells to work. If only they increased how long they last and decreased the cooldown on them, I could see them being a very mana efficient source of healing. But so far, I don't see the advantage of them over, say, bandaging oneself, either.
Mana efficiency vs. real-world usefulness is always an issue. Otherwise we'd all have been casting Greater Heal all the time before 1.10, right? :) I think that's the crux of our different specs; you're saying yours is more healing-efficient, which I can't argue - but I'm saying mine (well, my new one) will have more real-world use.
As a Priest who operated without Subtlety pre-1.10, I'd be interested in hearing how much of a difference you noted in fights with lots of adds (Razorgore, Nefarian Phase 1, when things go wrong in 5-man groups). Do you use at least 5 pieces of Trans as well? I only have 4 at the moment. Did you need Subtlety when The Core was still learning these encounters? I know you also didn't have the edge of Blessing of Salvation, so it would have been even more critical for you.
I would love to dump out points in Silent Resolve to get Improved PW:Shield. But I can't decide.
Lightwell sucks. The most mana efficient heal spell ever, but way too limited in scope to be useful beyond certain sporadic occurances. <disclaimer>In my opinion.</disclaimer>
MongoJerry,Mar 28 2006, 02:27 AM Wrote:It's interesting that you as a PvE person choose to go with Unbreakable Will instead of Wand Specialization. I've always thought of Unbreakable Will as a PvP talent. If I didn't PvP, I would choose Wand Specialization, since I use my wand so much in parties, raids, and when farming alone.
Meh. Cleoboltra can't farm. Getting Wand Specialization will only be of use when soloing, and I just don't solo with her anymore. It's too painful. Sure, I USE my wand in parties and raids, as something to do when I'm not healing, but Wand Specialization isn't going to turn me into a DPS'er. Who am I kidding? My job is to enable others to kill things faster and more safely.
Last time I actually "farmed" anything solo with Cleoboltra was a month or so ago when I wanted to get a few Essences of Water. Chinese Farmers, decked out in greens, were outpacing me 2 to 1. God forbid an epicly-geared Rogue would have come along, or they'd have cleaned out the place before I could get 2 mobs. Remember, I'm not on a PvP server where I could just kill them if they were on the opposite faction in order to get them out of "my spot."
Meanwhile, every time Onyxia fears and I resist it, I laugh (remember, I'm on "easy mode" and keep my tank Fear Warded). Every time a warrior charges me in AV and I resist it, I laugh. Every time a rogue tries to keep me in stunlock and fails, I laugh. I think I even resisted a BWL Wyrmguard's stomp once. Yes, it's more PvP than PvE oriented, but there are cases in raids where it shines - I can keep healing while other healers are stunned and save the day. You and I both know it's those "little things" that add up to wipe-savers.
-Bolty
Quote:Considering the mods here are generally liberals who seem to have a soft spot for fascism and white supremacy (despite them saying otherwise), me being perma-banned at some point is probably not out of the question.