Party Strategy Guide

[bkelly1984]

Hi Gnollguy,

That all makes sense. I'm still uncomfortable with the emphasis you put on the tank's role to generate threat for the AoE'r (I'm thinking it's backward) but the numbers from an instant arcane explosion are impressive.

I'd like to hammer on this topic a bit more as there are still logistical problems in my mind and I won't be able to describe them to others well until they is resolved. I'll keep asking questions to Treesh on this. Please feel free to respond there.

Brian

[bkelly1984]

Some in depth nitting

All fixed. Thanks.

Brian

[Carnifex]

Vanish, feign death and fade are very different because their effect on threat is temporary. You do lose a lot of your threat, but as soon as you reappear or stand up, all the threat you have built returns if there is still combat. Since you can't attack after a vanish or feign death without interrupting the effect, there's no way to uses these skills to do more damage without taking aggro.

Actually, both vanish and feign death (when they work as intended) wipe you off the aggro table. All threat generated to that point permanently gone.

[bkelly1984]

Thanks again for the fixes Brista. All of them are fixed with two exceptions.

Actually giving direction on what you want the pet to do is very useful. Succubus cc is on a par with mage sheeping and Hunter off-tanking is a very useful last line of defence for the healers. If the pet owner is a newish player it helps to remind them to set pet to passive so it doesn't automatically go chasing after runners, mobs that shoot at the owner etc

I agree with everything you said and mention it in the "Pets" section of "Dealing Damage". This sentence is talking about assigning a party role like "secondary tank" to a pet. If you don't think that is clear I can rework the paragraph.

And I can't believe I forgot about the crowd control of a Warlock's succubus! I'll add it to the list for now since I'm planning to expand the crowd control section anyway. Seduce can only be done on humanoids and can be recast, right?

I'd dispute this. Intelligent players will adapt their strategies to the situation. Basically you're saying priests shouldn't wand (since they're healers not dps), warriors shouldn't Execute (tanks not dps) and dps shouldn't rescue the healer. Unless you have foreseen everything that can possibly go wrong you need to allow people some freedom to make intelligent choices

Actually, I agree with you (that people should sometimes do the job of a role not assigned to them). I was even thinking of talking about rule number two: there are no rules. I left it out because if you say "follow the rules unless you think it's best not to" then nobody is going to follow the rules at all. I could write in something later in the document saything that you can do someone else's job if you can explain your reasons to the party leader. It still seems a bit subjective. Might you have a better suggestion?

But with that, I think your summary of my message isn't accurate. At the top of this secion I say "If you have your assigned roles well in hand or if you weren't assigned a role to begin with your job is to deal damage." This means Priests and Warriors are DPS if their other jobs are handled (but I'll also add the wand part into the healing section). On rescuing the healer, except for the secondary tank pulling aggro and the secondary healer healing, you're right and it is a case where I hope someone would step outside their roles if they know the job wouldn't be done otherwise.

Brian

[bkelly1984]

2) In your opinion, how often should a group do an AoE fight?  If a well-rounded group of five (one mage say) encountered 5 mobs, I think almost everyone would agree that AoE should be used if all five are non-elite.  Would you still recommend an AoE fight if 1 mob were elite?  What about two?  Three?

All depends on the fight, the type of mobs, and the party composition.

Well, sure, but this doesn't help me. I'm working on a strategy guide and need to give actionable advice.

I know there are a lot of factors but I tried to outline a fairly specific scenario. Okay, in addition to the above, let's say they're equal leveled mobs that melee only. No crowd control is possible. The party is Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Mage and Hunter. If there is anything else that would play a part, mention it and make an assumption. In this setup, would you recommend at least starting with AoE if of the one of the five mobs were elite? What about two? Three?

Now with that, do things change if the Hunter is replaced with a Warlock?

If the above questions are still unanswerable could someone at least provide a few guidelines as to when they would recommend AoE and when they wouldn't? I'm trying to get a feel for how much members of this forum think AoE should be used in the later instances. Coming here, my feeling was that AoE should only be used with non-elite groups, but I'm getting the impression that most find it's much more useful. If most see it as a staple attack, then perhaps I should change the whole system.

Also, your tank damned well better know just how many elites vs. non-elites are going to be in a pull.  *snip*

I'll demonstrate why the tank needs to know the pull before the pull with a little story. *snip*

Well I still don't know why a tank needs to know this. I see you're quite emphatic, but I didn't see any reasons why in your first paragraph. As for your story, it sounds like you had a bad puller but the moral I get from it is the puller and the shackler need to know who the elites are (and not even the shackler if the puller hadn't been lazy and used names), but not the tank. If a tank's job is to hold aggro, then every 15 seconds he or she needs to sunder the armor on each mob. Who cares if they're elite?

However, in this conversation I'm seeing the plan needs more commincation here. Knowing elite is important for people who need to set priorities, so it needs to be communicated to the Main Assist and perhaps crowd controlers. The tank would need the information only if he or she plans to hold aggro on specific mobs. Perhaps the puller should communicate the number of elites and non-elites. I'll think about this a bit more.

*snip two paragraphs on AoE being situation dependent*

So, after that rambling, it's best to say at the beginning "Don't AoE until the tank says it's ok". If you notice your tank is just a tool anyway, be prepared for an annoying and/or frustrating instance anyway.

Great. Any suggestions on advice I should give the tank on when to give the ok?

Brian

[Skandranon]

I know there are a lot of factors but I tried to outline a fairly specific scenario.  Okay, in addition to the above, let's say they're equal leveled mobs that melee only.  No crowd control is possible.  The party is Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Mage and Hunter.  If there is anything else that would play a part, mention it and make an assumption.  In this setup, would you recommend at least starting with AoE if  of the one of the five mobs were elite?  What about two?  Three? 

And now you run the problem that your scenario is both too specific and unreasonable. How does this result in actionable advice?

The problem, I think, is that you're looking for a set of general guidelines as to when to AoE and when not to. The only rule is that, if it's clear that Blizzard intends you to AoE, do it; if not, don't. This is the thing that people are trying to communicate to you: there are no general guidelines of the type you're looking for, and any attempt to formulate some would be fallacious. Trying to define an AoE scenario is like trying to define life: either your definition is too narrow and misses many, or it's too broad and includes too much. Ultimately you have to go with the same solution: I know it when I see it.

There's a couple of distinct issues here that you're somewhat trying to fuse and it isn't really working. Firstly, you want to know: when do we AoE? And secondly - what do we do when we AoE? Neither of these questions can really be answered with general rules.

In massive raids, where you're going with 5 people over the number designed to hit the instance, a lot of groups simply AoE everything. I wouldn't really call that a good example of play, though, just a brute-force application of power to speed through a raid.

In 5-man groups, the only indicator that a pull might be an AoE pull is that at least one non-elite is present; even then, the presence of a non-elite doesn't necessarily mean it should be AoEed. Maraudon contains a pull where all of the critters are elite and yet AoE is still the best response, though it's AoE-kiting. Which brings us to the second point: what you do when you AoE. There are strong-tank AoE pulls, moderate-tank AoE pulls, untanked AoE pulls and AoE-kiting pulls. Which tactic one uses is highly specific to the situation.

If a tank's job is to hold aggro, then every 15 seconds he or she needs to sunder the armor on each mob.  Who cares if they're elite?[right][snapback]84889[/snapback][/right]

A sunder every 15 seconds won't hold mobs against AoE; sometimes a sunder every 1.5 seconds won't hold it. There's a lot more to tanking than a sunder every now and then.

[Kevin]

All depends on the fight, the type of mobs, and the party composition. Well, sure, but this doesn't help me.  I'm working on a strategy guide and need to give actionable advice.

I know there are a lot of factors but I tried to outline a fairly specific scenario.  Okay, in addition to the above, let's say they're equal leveled mobs that melee only.  No crowd control is possible.  The party is Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Mage and Hunter.  If there is anything else that would play a part, mention it and make an assumption.  In this setup, would you recommend at least starting with AoE if  of the one of the five mobs were elite?  What about two?  Three? 

Now with that, do things change if the Hunter is replaced with a Warlock?

1 Elite and 4 non elite with your party. Puller pulls, tank hits and holds the elite mage and hunter can AoE, or hunter can focus on the elite with the rogue.

2 Elite and 3 non with no CC possible. Pull, tank gets attention of everything with a dem shout or whatever (more likely a thunder clap after an intercept charge if not the puller), get sunders on both elites, AoE with both mage and hunter or mage and warlock. Tank should be able to hold both elites and AoE will wipe out the rest. If priest has to heal early and pulls the non elites AoE around priest to get aggro. Tank can pull not elites into AoE if they feel they can hold them from hitting the AoE.

3 Elite and 2 non elite. Pull, tank gets everythings attention. Focus on the elites first of course. Hunter does a volley that will pull the nons to him but should leave the elites. Mage can then AoE them with a shield up and everyone goes back to focus fire. Mage and lock you can have the mage flame strike then have them AoE. Want mage to get any aggro as lock can be interrupted. Depending on the tank the primary target has probably been feinted around. Kill it. Tank should have solid aggro on other two you can focus or AoE them down.

4 Elite 1 non. Can AoE or focus fire. To AoE. Tank gets everythings attention while people hold back. Rogue can start attacking primary target. I would put the pet on another target with growl one, tank can ignore that one. AoE up by the tank. Rogue my have to evasion tank one of them. Pet should hold the one, warrior should hold 2, rogue may very well have to evasion tank the primary here, but it will die quickly with a mage and warlock AoE or a mage AoE and a hunter focus on it as well. Would most likely focuse fire down a group like that though.

5 elite. Can still be AoE'd but the rogue will be out of combat for awhile while tank builds aggro or will have to evasion tank. Hunter pet would have to hold one in the AoE as well. Would not recommend AoE here as tank won't be able to hold that many elites through AoE and the elites will kill the AoE person.

Well I still don't know why a tank needs to know this.  I see you're quite emphatic, but I didn't see any reasons why in your first paragraph.  As for your story, it sounds like you had a bad puller but the moral I get from it is the puller and the shackler need to know who the elites are (and not even the shackler if the puller hadn't been lazy and used names), but not the tank.  If a tank's job is to hold aggro, then every 15 seconds he or she needs to sunder the armor on each mob.  Who cares if they're elite?

Because the elites need to be held the most strongly. If you are going to lose a mob to a peel it should be a non elite or the least dangerous mob. The tank needs to know what is CC'd so that they don't waste time locking that mob down. If the tank knows that AoE is happening very early he wants to keep the elites from hitting the people doing AoE since they do the most damage and can very likely ignore the non elite mobs. There is no reason to let one or 2 elites ever hit a squishy, but if the tank doesn't know where or what the elites are they waste time in finding them to get them locked down. And you won't be able to keep the elites in check if you spend time holding the non elites. Or if you have bad rage generation that fight for some reason you let the lower priorities have the higher chance of exiting lock down. If focuse fire is going to be heavy and you are only holding the rest vs healer aggro you can be even more stingy on how that aggro is applied to make sure the mob doesn't go peeling off to a DPS class.

[Treesh]

Well I still don't know why a tank needs to know this.  I see you're quite emphatic, but I didn't see any reasons why in your first paragraph.  As for your story, it sounds like you had a bad puller but the moral I get from it is the puller and the shackler need to know who the elites are (and not even the shackler if the puller hadn't been lazy and used names), but not the tank.  If a tank's job is to hold aggro, then every 15 seconds he or she needs to sunder the armor on each mob.  Who cares if they're elite?

However, in this conversation I'm seeing the plan needs more commincation here.  Knowing elite is important for people who need to set priorities, so it needs to be communicated to the Main Assist and perhaps crowd controlers.  The tank would need the information only if he or she plans to hold aggro on specific mobs.  Perhaps the puller should communicate the number of elites and non-elites.  I'll think about this a bit more.

Great.  Any suggestions on advice I should give the tank on when to give the ok?

Brian
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A tank needs to know how many elites and how many non-elites are going to be in a pull because the tank needs to lock down at least the elites so he needs to focus on them first. Say you've got a pull coming up with 3 elites and 3 non-elites (that don't do a lot of damage) in a group and you can't crowd control any of them (Ah, sunken temple memories). The tank is going to have to grab aggro on the 3 elites or they'll just eat through the mages/warlocks. Hopefully the tank will be able to hold on a couple of the non-elites through one or two of the AOE "pulses" so they won't immediately break to the AoErs. (Mages, remember you can also start with Blizzard rather than flamestrike or arcane explosion so your threat doesn't start off with a large amount, but you're still doing AoE damage. If you're specced to chill with blizzard, even better.) If the tank doesn't know what's elite and what isn't before the pull, he's going to be scrambling to find the elites to lock them down after the pull (as I did trying to get a shackling target, which is why I mentioned the little story) or else will just grab what he can, probably grabbing non-elites first, meaning the elites are more likely to hit the AoErs causing a lot of extra damage and healing. You do not want multiple elites beating on your cloth wearers. If the tank can't lock down the elites, it's going to be a struggle to keep the AoErs alive, especially if one is a warlock with that damned suicide AoE. The warlocks get hurt enough from hellfire (I think that's the name. None of my locks are big enough to have it yet). They don't need to be taking extra damage from elite critters too, despite their huge hitpoint pools. If your tank doesn't know what the elites are and how many before the pull, he's not going to be able to lock them down as well (unless he's a great player and those are rare in pickup groups) and they will eat your AoErs.

When to AoE and when to not AoE. If it's all non-elites that don't really hurt much or will die quickly, AoE whenever. If it's just one elite and a bunch of non-elites that don't hurt much, you can probably AoE and not give your healer a heart attack. If it's one elite and a bunch of non-elites who do hurt a lot but will probably die farily quickly, let the tank get aggro on as many as he can before unleashing. If it's all elites in the pull, get creative with crowd control first before thinking about AoEing. The more hitpoints and damage the critters have/can do, the less likely you are to AoE successfully (meaning without your mages/warlocks ending up dead. Dead people does not mean successful in my book for 5 man runs). You are better off trying to crowd control that mess. If you are pressed for time and have say, two mages and a warlock in the group with your tank and healer, you can try it to save some time, but frequently it's too risky.

I wish I could tell you just how to tell the tanks to know when they've built up enough aggro on the really ouchy critters so they can call for AoE, but it does kind of depend. It's a feel thing. Sometimes the thunderclap, dem shout, sunder everything else repeatedly can hold them, sometimes it can't. If it was a ranged pull rather than a charge pull, it's going to take a little longer to really lock them down. If they are one of the warriors who fears defensive stance for some reason, it may take them longer to lock down multiple mobs or just take more attention to do. If your tank is a pally, it's going to be awfully rough on them to hold down multiples even with consecrate sometimes. Give them time to lock down as well. It's harder for them than for warriors, but they can still do it. It still just comes down to feel. If the tank has gotten some lucky crits on sweeping strikes or cleave or even just on auto-attack, he can call a little earlier. If the tank has been missing like crazy, he needs to wait.

[Darian]

Well I still don't know why a tank needs to know this.  I see you're quite emphatic, but I didn't see any reasons why in your first paragraph.
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In addition to the detailed answer Treesh gave you:

Everyone in the party needs to know what mobs they're going to be pulling and whether they're elite or not. Crowd-controllers need to understand the most pressing threat, if there are controllable mobs. The tank needs to know his primary and secondary targets for lockdown. The main assist needs to know what order he intends to lead the group through the mobs. And everyone else needs to know what's coming so that they (1) aren't caught clueless and (2) remain mentally involved in the action.

Any suggestion that there's any member of the party who doesn't have a need to know what's coming in the pull is a bad idea. It leads to people who aren't fulfilling "key" group roles into playing like lazy automecha.

[Treesh]

Everyone in the party needs to know what mobs they're going to be pulling and whether they're elite or not.  Crowd-controllers need to understand the most pressing threat, if there are controllable mobs.  The tank needs to know his primary and secondary targets for lockdown.  The main assist needs to know what order he intends to lead the group through the mobs.  And everyone else needs to know what's coming so that they (1) aren't caught clueless and (2) remain mentally involved in the action.

Any suggestion that there's any member of the party who doesn't have a need to know what's coming in the pull is a bad idea.  It leads to people who aren't fulfilling "key" group roles into playing like lazy automecha.
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Excellent point and I'm glad you put it in writing. This is something that I just assume - everyone is going to try to know what's in the pull. Some of the pulls are a little trickier than others to let people know just what is and what isn't coming, but everyone needs to make an effort to know.

However, this does not mean to have everyone crowd around the person who is scouting out the pull (like the Line of Sight pulls), especially if it's a rogue doing the scouting. Priests can mind vision the scouter, warlocks can use the eye of kilrogg, rogues and druids can just stealth to peek (but be careful). If you're a mage who needs to get a target for sheeping, have the scout target something for you and then /assist the scout. You won't really find out the pull composition that way (if it's around the corner or out of your visual range/nameplate range), but at least you will be ready to help with crowd control.

[kandrathe]

One example from recent experience,

I'm not understanding you here. I believe overly specific jobs increases the effectiveness of a party as described in "The Reason for Roles". I also don't understand how your assignment of healers is any different than mine. Could you expand a bit?

A warrior, priest, druid, hunter, and warlock go on a DM Tribute run. One pull had two ogre melee and two ogre mages. One ogre mage was MC'd (and died quickly), a Freeze trap was at the priests feet, one ogre was being seduced, the tank had one, but the druid decided to go into bear form and off tank the third ogre. The result was that the warlock ended up dead due to the priest being unavailable to heal both tanks after the MC was completed. It is valid for some classes, like rogue, paladin, druid, hunter/pet, warlock/pet to offtank a mob as the situation demands, or heal -- but they need to choose correctly. The druid might have left the tanking to the warrior (who was more than capable of tanking two ogres), and instead aided in healing the warlock. It wasn't a wipe, but without the additional CC and damage, the remainder of that fight was dicey when it really didn't need to be.

Basically, the smaller the group, the more roles one needs to adopt and know when to adopt without every group pull being analyzed in detail. In 15+ person raids, you could have tank, MA, healer, back up healer, puller, etc. In 10 person or less groups, you sometimes need to rely on people intelligently grabbing deep into their bag of tricks.

[Darian]

However, this does not mean to have everyone crowd around the person who is scouting out the pull (like the Line of Sight pulls), especially if it's a rogue doing the scouting.  Priests can mind vision the scouter, warlocks can use the eye of kilrogg, rogues and druids can just stealth to peek (but be careful).  If you're a mage who needs to get a target for sheeping, have the scout target something for you and then /assist the scout.  You won't really find out the pull composition that way (if it's around the corner or out of your visual range/nameplate range), but at least you will be ready to help with crowd control.
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And anyone used to running with -- specifically -- Quark and I are used to him calling out my pull if it's a blind pull. Just common sense, really.

[Ruvanal]

(Mages, remember you can also start with Blizzard rather than flamestrike or arcane explosion so your threat doesn't start off with a large amount, but you're still doing AoE damage. If you're specced to chill with blizzard, even better.) 
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I think this brings up a good subject with mages and their AoE attacks, but in this case I think you should look a little closer at the damage outputs and the timing of that damage. In my opinion the open of the AoE with Blizzard in many cases could result in a worse situation than using Flamestrike to open with. Why? Because for most similar paired rankings of Blizzard and Flamestrike, the damage of the first 3 pulses (3 sec) of the Blizzard will out damage the initial damage pulse of the Flamestrike (3 sec casting). The Blizzard could also start pulling a mob off the tank earlier if it had not had enough time to get a more solid aggro lock. With the 3 second casting of the Flamestrike, that is an addition 3 seconds for the tank(warrior) to work up more hate on the elites that really need to be held the most prior to things starting to get pulled off. The Flamestrike is also a front loaded casting spell that will do its damage sequence once the spell is finished casting. This leaves the mage in a postion to then begin casting either Blizzard or Arcane Explosion for addition AoE damage while the remaining portion of the Flamestrike damage plays itself out. The situation and availability of PW:S will help determine which of those two is the better follow up spell to be using.

The subject AoEs and mages to most players simply means the full 5 point improved Arcane Explosion attack for instant damage. This in many cases is poor choice of the attack to use and why most equate the use of AoE to being an automatic complete mana drain requiring a drinking period at the end. For the highest ranks of the 4 primarily used mage AoE spells the damage per mana they generate are
DpM spell
0.65 Arcane Explosion (10 yard radius centered on caster)
0.76 Flame Strike (5 yard radius of effect, 30 yard range for center of effect)
0.85 Blizzard (10 yard radius effect, 30 yard range, channeled for 8 sec)
0.92 Blast Wave (10 yard radius centered on caster, gives a 6 second stun also, 45 sec cooldown)

Note that with Blizzard, any damage done to the caster can cause stuttering which shortens that channeling time. This in turn reduces the damage done and correspondingly will lower the damage per mana value.

While the damage per second of the Flamestrike and Blizzard are going to be somewhat lower than the damage per second of a spammed instant Arcane Explosion, the use of these other two skills can result in more flexibilty to the party by both reducing the mages own mana expenditure and hopefully also the healers mana expenditure by not always having to expend as much on healing some of the cloth wearers.

For a bit of tactial advice to BKelly, have the party decide prior to AoE pulls on who is going to be the central aggro generator for the AoE effect. This can limit the healer to only worring about the tank (who should be ok during the main AoE phase) and just one cloth wearer. With a priest healer the appropriate use of PW:S can even reduce this amount of healing considerably. Above all, communicate about how the group intends to do AoE pulls before ever pulling one. Don't assume that just because there is a chance to do AoE attacks that the whole party is expecting it to happen.

[Treesh]

I think this brings up a good subject with mages and their AoE attacks, but in this case I think you should look a little closer at the damage outputs and the timing of that damage. 
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You're right. It does depend on the timing a lot. How antsy is the mage? Can he/she wait a bit or not? I'm very glad you posted about flamestrike vs blizzard. For me, usually flamestrike pulls aggro to me quicker than blizzard does, but that could very well be my playstyle rather than the skills themselves because of the timing of things.

Edit: To anyone else reading this, listen to Ruv about aggro management and mages more than listening to me. I've seen first hand how little his mage draws aggro, even end game. He's got it down quite well. I'm still learning. ;)

[Brista]

Seduce can only be done on humanoids and can be recast, right? 

True and true

Actually, I agree with you (that people should sometimes do the job of a role not assigned to them).  I was even thinking of talking about rule number two: there are no rules.  I left it out because if you say "follow the rules unless you think it's best not to" then nobody is going to follow the rules at all.  I could write in something later in the document saything that you can do someone else's job if you can explain your reasons to the party leader.  It still seems a bit subjective.  Might you have a better suggestion?

But with that, I think your summary of my message isn't accurate.  At the top of this secion I say "If you have your assigned roles well in hand or if you weren't assigned a role to begin with your job is to deal damage."  This means Priests and Warriors are DPS if their other jobs are handled (but I'll also add the wand part into the healing section).  On rescuing the healer, except for the secondary tank pulling aggro and the secondary healer healing, you're right and it is a case where I hope someone would step outside their roles if they know the job wouldn't be done otherwise.

I think the wording you're looking for is in your answer: don't jump out of your role unless you know the job wouldn't be done otherwise and unless it's a more urgent job that your customary role

So Hunter rescuing Healer with pet and Serpent Sting at the same time as Mage goes to rescue Healer with re-Sheep = bad while Hunter rescuing healer because there's no one else on the case is good

[kandrathe]

I do agree that hunters can be very effective group members and don't get enough respect.
...
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Some don't earn it, and a few rubes cause the class to be viewed with suspicion. In line with what you and Brista were discussing, it's been my experience that most healers will not heal or buff pets. Which makes keeping them alive even harder as Blizzard has stripped them of any innate resistances, and we have no way to give them any which is why we love druids and their "... of the wild" buffs. Our mend pet skill is woefully weak (channel 245 hp for 5 sec (1225 total) (option +10% with two talents in the >15 beast talent tree *not worth it dept*) for the mana investment (480). Compare mend pet to a priests Renew 810 hp/15 sec instant cast for 365 mana, or a druids rejuventation 756 / 12 sec instant cast for 335 mana. I use mend pet as a last gasp when I have to keep my pet alive, knowing that I'm sacrificing most if not all my mana (special skills including FD) to drop a target that has a shred of life remaining.

In instances, we keep pets in passive mode with auto cower to keep them from stealing aggro until we want them to try to grab aggro. I've been on some quickie raids and groups that try to bypass mobs, which is extra dicey for a class with a pet, as the pets pathing is entirely AI (read unpredictable).

The third challenge that Hunters have is that our effectiveness in dealing damage is affected by armor, where the other ranged dps classes aren't. Against some instances (with lots of plate wearers) we look pretty weak due to DR of our main damage type (physical). If the tank does a number of sunders it can help our dmg output, however most tanks only do enough sunders to hold aggro.

And finally, our attack choices become more restricted in instances. Aimed shot can only be used once it is clear that the tank has aggro locked, multi shot and volley usually cannot be used due to CC issues. Leaving autoshot, Arcane (+183 dmg 1/6 sec), concussive (1/12sec base dmg) and stings (also base dmg). I'm sure the other dps classes also feel this restriction on some of their skills, however I feel as a hunter I'm pretty restricted most of the time. I tend to open with a sting, sic my pet on the target, then use autoshot while the tank builds aggro, than add Arcane shot, and finally pump in Aimed shots when I can until the target is dead. Switch targets to the one that the tank has aggro locked on, rinse repeat.

Having damage meters helps me to measure just what my hunters contribution is, and in a 20 person raid my contribution is in the 5% to 8% of damage, with the bulk of it usually going to mages. In a 5 person group my contribution is usually in the top 2, losing to mages, warlocks, and rogues depending on the effectiveness of the toons, and the type of instance. I view it as somewhat irrelevant if the teams goals are achieved, but it is worthwhile to compare rogue, mage, warlock, and hunter as their primary purpose is dps.

Additionally;

Pets are one of the most dangerous things to being into a dungeon because of aggro. Not only do they have a tendency to run off and aggro large numbers of mobs, but they can also build threat on the wrong mobs and really make it much harder for the group to control aggro.

I have to take exception to this. Pets are not the problem, it is the Hunter, and they are an obvious scapegoat to other party problems. Sometimes using /assist, the designated MA is briefly looking at the wrong target, and since I've already set the pet to attack it takes additional effort to recall and retarget before the pet draws aggro. And, managing an additional character takes extra effort with a poor set of AI tools (attack everything, attack whatever hits me, and do nothing), so there are many opportunities for error. When traversing terrain, dismissing the pet is the safest and I tend to do that more now that I'm lvl 60. Using EoTB, needs to be done in conjunction with "Stay". I tend to have the pet jump down first, then "Stay", drop EoTB, then jump down myself, and return it to "Follow" mode. If you forget to use "Stay" the pet will try to run back to you and undo that marvelous EoTB work.

[bkelly1984]

...I believe that charging by the tank should still be used far more often than just single strong opponents.

I can see that. I added a paragraph suggesting the puller consider a charge pull in safe circumstances.

Other pulls done with a ranged weapon I like to have it be someone else, so that the warrior can still charge.  The warrior positions behind the party slightly, to allow a charge that intercepts in a safe place to fight.  Puller pulls, mobs come forward, warrior charges, demo shout, sunder, and the battle is on.

Yes, of course. I can't believe I left that out. I put in another section under "Charge In" talking about this.

Another suggestion is to include more about how to handle pulls on mobs that attack from range.  Breaking LOS, Silence, Counterspell could be discussed.

These are good additions. I've already included them.

Thanks for the feedback vor_lord. Let me know if you have other ideas.

Brian

[bkelly1984]

I must add here, that warlocks have THE spell to hold runners, which is Curse of Recklesness...

Indeed! Both me and the guide stand corrected.

Also I may add, Druids have roots to prevent mobs form running if outdoors and in caster form.

You are right, but I don't believe it's reliable since damage can interrupt the effect.

I may be even so bold as to say that if there is a warlock in the party, he/she must be responsable for runners. Just slap a CoR when the mob is short of running.

I would prefer a well-armored Paladin with a Seal of Justice, especially after what you say below.

However it is my experience that classes who CC in battle like mages or Warlocks with succubus, which will be changing targets to refresh the CC, will do bad MAs.

Ah, good point. I'll add a sentence mentioning this.

Thanks very much for your feedback Redinter,

Brian

[Tharn]

AoEing elites is only possible with multiple AoE sources, so I wont talk about it. In general I never recommend party to AoE when there are only 1 or 2 non-elites, it's faster, safer and more mana efficient to quickly kill them right in the begining (after dangerous casters are dead).

So in your cases above in general:
1 elite + 4 non elite: pull elite and focus fire on it and AoE
2 elite + 3 non elite: CC one and then the same, if CC is not possilbe, party will have to agree on something depending on composion of both group and the targets
3 elite + 2 non elite: no AoE, unless there are more AoE sources

But as always, it depends on party and mobs and only experience what you can and what you cannot do with the pull right in front of you.

In any case, I prefer charge pull, since all mobs gather around tank and especially ranged attackers in the pull stay close and in AoE range (e.g. BRD pulls around Constructs). As a frost/arcane mage I always begin with FN/CoC and then just IAE and throw CoC again when it becomes available.

I tried to begin with Blizzard for higher mana efficiency, but always ended these fights with less mana than when doing the above because of:

1. With most tanks the mobs tend to break and go after healer very shortly after pull/charge - I often have barely enough time to FN them after they gather around tank

2. Even when I was giving tank some time, the Blizzard broke all mobs after 3rd wave at most and then 2-3 more waves and I had to cancel Blizzard anyway. I think about trying out Flamestrike, but it's not possible when mobs are breaking from tank, it also has rather small range.

By the way, I also think everyone in the group should know exactly what's going on and I don't see why not.

[bkelly1984]

Actually, both vanish and feign death (when they work as intended) wipe you off the aggro table.  All threat generated to that point permanently gone.

Thanks Carnifex. While this meant the section needed a rewrite, I kinda thought it needed one. Let me know if you see anything in the new version.

Brian