A Study Of N00bs

[Quark]

Or if I'd been kicked after my cat ran down a cliff, bringing a lot of uncleared slime mobs with her, that I'd not have learned that they don't follow you off a cliff (Like I thought that they did)., but take the 'sensible' way down.
[right][snapback]81944[/snapback][/right]

Nit: In my experience, pets have been floating down when their player jumps recently. It wasn't always like that, but I'm pretty sure it is now.

[Mavfin]

I've got to agree with Quark here.  If I wait even just two seconds into the fight before ambushing, I generally won't take aggro from the warrior.   Now, blade flurry + slice and dice with my sword will pull aggro to me a lot of the times which is part of why I don't use it in dungeons unless a group of non-elite things go to the druid healer.  Then you bet I throw on blade flurry, slice and dice and then hit evasion.  If there's a third one, it gets blinded for a bit.  Since they're non-elites, they are either dead by the time evasion wears off or else the main target has gone down so the tank (or a real offtank) can get things off of me.  But I keep the druid safe and able to heal everyone else.

But honestly, opening with ambush does not make a rogue a bad rogue.  There aren't a whole lot of other openers from stealth and the smart rogue knows how to use ambush and feint (when necessary).  There are rare cases such as way too many crits right in a row, but that's an exception and not the norm.
[right][snapback]81941[/snapback][/right]

Treesh and Quark, both of you....I said *open* with Ambush, and really meant hit the mob with Ambush before I hit the mob. Now, neither of you is going to do that, usually, are you? At least on an elite one? No? (see my comment about non-elites below) Then there's no issue. I said 'the dumb ones'. Meaning the ones who tee off on the mob immediately, with no thought to the warrior getting aggro. The mage who pyroblasts one before I touch it is the same manner of problem.

And, Quark, yes, there are always exceptions on the 'let me die' rule, too, but, surprisingly the groups I've played with are disciplined enough to let the rogue die and rez her/him in the situations it would cause a wipe, and the rogue was smart enough to know the difference.

Also, non-elite mobs, mixed with the elites? I rarely worry about those as MT. Rarely do I have to. The off-tanks/mages/rogues clean them up while I thoroughly piss off the elite(s). Rogues are free to hit them as hard as they like. Non-elite trash mobs are perfect for rogues high damage to clean up, especially if softened up by AOE from mages/warlocks. I only worry about non-elites *if* they become too much of a problem to a group member, or the elites are dead. :D

[Treesh]

Treesh and Quark, both of you....I said *open* with Ambush, and really meant hit the mob with Ambush before I hit the mob.  Now, neither of you is going to do that, usually, are you? No? Then there's no issue.  I said 'the dumb ones'.  Meaning the ones who tee off on the mob immediately, with no thought to the warrior getting aggro.
[right][snapback]81958[/snapback][/right]

For me, and I guess a lot of other rogues, "open" doesn't mean "when the group starts combat". It means "use a skill that can only be used from stealth" since that is so frequently a rogue's first move. I'm sorry you've grouped with rogues who attack before the warrior even touches a critter. Yes, you are right. Those ones suck. ;)

[Tal]

For me, and I guess a lot of other rogues, "open" doesn't mean "when the group starts combat". It means "use a skill that can only be used from stealth" since that is so frequently a rogue's first move.  I'm sorry you've grouped with rogues who attack before the warrior even touches a critter. Yes, you are right.  Those ones suck. ;)
[right][snapback]81960[/snapback][/right]

Yes they do. Its also why I've completely stopped running instances at all with pubbies on Shalandrax. I stick with my Etheramwen, Ramala, Yuen and Novaa. Good rogues make a warrior happy. Great rogues like above make a paladin MT VERY happy. ;)

[Treesh]

Also, non-elite mobs, mixed with the elites? I rarely worry about those as MT.  Rarely do I have to.  The off-tanks/mages/rogues clean them up while I thoroughly piss off the elite(s).  Rogues are free to hit them as hard as they like.  Non-elite trash mobs are perfect for rogues high damage to clean up, especially if softened up by AOE from mages/warlocks.  I only worry about non-elites *if* they become too much of a problem to a group member, or the elites are dead. :D
[right][snapback]81958[/snapback][/right]

You edited right after I posted! Monkey! ;)

That's why I do it that way. We frequently don't have mages with Taranna and Eth so no big AoEs to hold aggro against the heals and when GG has to heal the tank a lot, the non-elites beeline for him. Since druids don't have a fade (hooray for the dagger that drops in Sunken Temple that has a fade proc!), he can't just shed the aggro on the little buggers and if someone doesn't get them off of him, the heals are stuttered and the tank is dead. And druids also don't have the fancy shield to help the mages stay up without taking a lot of healing or else the mages burn extra mana because they have to use mana shield. If the tank at least does a thunderclap or dem shout or something to get aggro on everything around him, then there's going to be a lot less peeling of those trash mobs. Yes, concentrate on the elites in the group, but if you're a warrior, you have very good skills to use to keep lots of critters on you and keep everyone safe without having to focus on every single critter.

[vor_lord]

Nit: In my experience, pets have been floating down when their player jumps recently.  It wasn't always like that, but I'm pretty sure it is now.
[right][snapback]81953[/snapback][/right]

Saw this twice recently too -- wonder if there is any official confirmation about something like this? It'd sure be nice to know if jumping is "safe" now in an instance.

[Treesh]

Saw this twice recently too -- wonder if there is any official confirmation about something like this?  It'd sure be nice to know if jumping is "safe" now in an instance.
[right][snapback]81964[/snapback][/right]

Some places the pet will follow you safely, but just yesterday out in the world I had my pet take the long way around. I haven't tried it in an instance yet due to paranoia on my part and not wanting to wipe the group. ;)

[Roane]

Some places the pet will follow you safely, but just yesterday out in the world I had my pet take the long way around.  I haven't tried it in an instance yet due to paranoia on my part and not wanting to wipe the group. ;)
[right][snapback]81965[/snapback][/right]

Likewise. My pet has been following me down when I jump more often than not (but still not always), but if it failing to follow me down will bring adds, I'm not trying things that way.

[oldmandennis]

Now I don't mean to go on a rant here...

<snip the rant about druids vs priests on tribute runs>

[right][snapback]81930[/snapback][/right]

Three points: Druids should NOT be as good of healers as priests. Why would anyone play priests if Druids were as good, and had neat shape shifting abilities too? However, Druid + Sham/Pally should get you through any 5 man instance.

Second, you have picked one specific way to do one specific run of one specific instance, and there is a lot of ways to go where Pally/Druid is more then adequate. I'll admit because of the mechanics of a tribute run having either a rogue, an engineer, or a blacksmith around is a great idea, but if you pick 5 non rogues what are the chances that none of them are blacksmiths or engineers?

Third, to solve your specific delima of wanting 2 healers 1 rogue 1 tank 1 pet and 1 aoe, why not combine aoe and pet, and bring along a lock. It doesn't HAVE to be that exact set of classes you took, any configuration will be stronger in some aspects and weaker in others.

[Ruvanal]

Nit: In my experience, pets have been floating down when their player jumps recently.&nbsp; It wasn't always like that, but I'm pretty sure it is now.
[right][snapback]81953[/snapback][/right]

Only on some of the slopes and cliffs will this happen. I have been experiencing it with Taunshu and Orion for at least 2 patches now, so it really is not that new. It is not limited to instances and is a matter of how that particular cliff face is set up as to if the pet can have viable but some what obstructed path to follow you down. The obstruction aspect is what makes them seem to float down as the keep getting hung up on the cliffs irregularities and slowed by them. The same invisible irregularites is what slows a following pet down so that they 'lag behind' a fast moving player on what appears to clear terrain to the player (and the fact that the pet is not really following the players path but actually a pursit plot to a point the left and slightly ahead of the player).

[Drasca]

And druids also don't have the fancy shield to help the mages stay up without taking a lot of healing

Yes, concentrate on the elites in the group, but if you're a warrior, you have very good skills to use to keep lots of critters on you and keep everyone safe without having to focus on every single critter.
[right][snapback]81962[/snapback][/right]

Wholeheartedly agreed that non-elites should be handled one way or another. Preferably let tank tank, and everyone else off-tank--cause its just a non-elite. Don't want bee-lining to healers to happen!

Druids work better healing warlock AoE'ers due to extremely high health pool locks have to work with. In desperate (like bee-lining), or comfortable situations where healing is plenty, my warlock simply hellfires his way through instances, soul link, intensity, or no. Its not exactly mana efficient if you think in terms of life tapping and melee against cloth, but you're limited to mainly one target who isn't easily overhealed, and the rest of the party is free to go nuts on damage aggro. End-result with enough healing: everything dies around the lock while aggro is somewhat spread around due to presence of rogues and high aggro damage abilities

Ok, we are going to jump down. You should dismiss your pet now". Things would have been fine and I would have learned the easy way.

My point is that smart people learn from their mistakes

Smart people learn to predict and correct other potential mistakes too. Pubbie groups are a potluck, but oragnized leaders should warn about mishaps. For example, any decently organized group leader would normally warn you in UBRS-Rend arena that your pet might need to be dismissed.

A warrior lost his chance of loot simply because of the difference in Res ability.

Little bit more complex than that. Party equipment & organization time to clear vs repop and boss corpse despawn time determine if people able to run back or not. Party looking at corpse while members are released also negate loot. Your best chance to loot is when your members scream "do not touch corpse" until everyone is rezzed and nearby. Your party made a choice to use druid rez early. If there were no repops, it would be best to simply run.

It is not the solely fault of the player or class limitations for loss of loot.

Can anyone tell me any of that is really preferable to simply having a Priest?

If you're going for ideal parties via druid inclusion, replace both hunter and mage with warlock. He can serve both pet and aoe role, while druid is better able to heal him. You can have a rezzer for 5th if desired, but really not necessary. Any class should do. Warlock inclusion is more likely to survive the dogs too, and the HoT's work better on locks with their high health pool. This lock actually prefers druid healing in aoe situations. Back to dogs, their rend is nerfed, so it doesn't stack as much. Should be easier to heal against, so long as the mage doesn't have 2k health.

Currently, Moldan's key isn't an issue. I like rogues, but for a DM north trib run vet, killing guard mol'dan in the first courtyard and resetting is no big deal. If they make the key instance only and drops don't improve, it does become an issue.

With druids, there's potentially less wipes with track humanoid ability too. Fewer patrols catch you off-guard. I certainly like that in DM north.

Druids are certainly preferable to priests from a warlock perspective. Give me druids!

[Quark]

Did I say Druids should be as good healing? No.

Did I say there weren't other ways around it? No. But that's not fair to the players we had ready to do DM.

Nothing you said counteracts the fundamental fact that there is never a reason to have a druid around instead of a priest. It makes you more forced into other class selections if you actually want to res people, and loses out on the PW:S which is a huge boost for casters.

If you ever want to see druids on a semi-consistent basis, they need to be able to res people. Otherwise people will almost always go for the priest instead.

[Warlock]

The res issue is a hassle on my Druid; I pretty much have to have a Paladin or Priest in the group if there are any fights hard enough to risk a death. I feel that two healers in a party is generally a good idea so don't think of it as a major issue... though when it does bite it bites hard. Ending a run just before the boss because two people died and the entrance has respawned is not fun.

I feel that Druid and Priest healing is comparable right now, if both classes specialise in it. Priests are superior in short sharp fights, Druids in long steady ones If neither specialises, Priests are better - without Nature's Swiftness and Innervate the Druid is stuck using slow or inefficient heals with a smaller mana pool.

A month ago I was feeling that I should have just played a Priest - equivalent healing, vastly higher damage, fade, silence, better crowd control and unlimited res. Since then I've changed guilds and started tanking more, so I'm happy again.

[Mavfin]

You edited right after I posted!&nbsp; Monkey!&nbsp; ;)

That's why I do it that way.&nbsp; We frequently don't have mages with Taranna and Eth so no big AoEs to hold aggro against the heals and when GG has to heal the tank a lot, the non-elites beeline for him.&nbsp; Since druids don't have a fade (hooray for the dagger that drops in Sunken Temple that has a fade proc!), he can't just shed the aggro on the little buggers and if someone doesn't get them off of him, the heals are stuttered and the tank is dead.&nbsp; And druids also don't have the fancy shield to help the mages stay up without taking a lot of healing or else the mages burn extra mana because they have to use mana shield.&nbsp; If the tank at least does a thunderclap or dem shout or something to get aggro on everything around him, then there's going to be a lot less peeling of those trash mobs.&nbsp; Yes, concentrate on the elites in the group, but if you're a warrior, you have very good skills to use to keep lots of critters on you and keep everyone safe without having to focus on every single critter.
[right][snapback]81962[/snapback][/right]

Of course. I use aoe hate liberally, including piercing howl, thunderclap, demoralizing, and I save challenging shout for when I need to do something drastic. And I try to have a secondary healer in the group for this kind of problem, but, again, that's not always possible, and I have to tank accordingly. Good tanks, warrior or pally, adjust. The situation you mentioned is tailor made for a pally off-tank to help with. He can heal you, and maybe even draw a couple of them to him.

[oldmandennis]

Exactly the sort of debate I was hoping to have here, Quark! If they feel like it a "real" druid can step in, mine's only 26.

Did I say there weren't other ways around it?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; But that's not fair to the players we had ready to do DM.

That's a little bit silly. If you had a rogue, 2 warriors and 2 warlocks ready to go, is it fair for them to expect to get the tribute?

Nothing you said counteracts the fundamental fact that there is never a reason to have a druid around instead of a priest.&nbsp;

If you ever want to see druids on a semi-consistent basis, they need to be able to res people.&nbsp; Otherwise people will almost always go for the priest instead.
[right][snapback]82005[/snapback][/right]

Hmmm... I have considered playing my druid more, and this issue is NOT what is stopping me. When my druid was untagged, he couldn't buy a bale of hey in XR without recieving 3-4 guild invites. If you are considering a druid, 5 man groups are almost always looking for a healer, and how hard is it to find a shaman or a pally?

/em OldManDennis throws rock, which bounces off two shammys and a pally
/em Pally bubbles

I agree, having a druid as your only source of healing is a bad plan. However, Druid + pally/shammy is just about as good as priest + whatever you want IMHO. I guess the one exception on the horde side would be a 5 man with really bad curses. I can't think of any, but haven't spent much time in Strath/Scholo/DM.

[Quark]

Little bit more complex than that. Party equipment & organization time to clear vs repop and boss corpse despawn time determine if people able to run back or not. Party looking at corpse while members are released also negate loot. Your best chance to loot is when your members scream "do not touch corpse" until everyone is rezzed and nearby. Your party made a choice to use druid rez early. If there were no repops, it would be best to simply run.

You're right it's more complex, and you missed points which hurt druids even more. Obviously there were repops -> the eyes. The time difference between the two fights was minimal, so you can't say the eye wouldn't have been there for Mage had he run back. What if two people had died during the final fight? I've seen the tank go down too early in DM Tribute, popped Evasion and went against the King for awhile, then went down myself right before the Hunter took him out. "Saving" the res wouldn't have helped us at all in that case, but the Priest would still be happily ressing people.

The only possible "better" outcome was that a more prepared Mage would have an easier time of dealing with an Eye than an less prepared Warrior.

You also forget mobs have limited time in existance. The warrior didn't lose his chance at loot because someone else tried to check too early, he lost his loot because we were afraid of losing it all to corpse decay. We didn't even spawn the Tribute chest, but the King will only stay around for so long. After losing loot because of deaths before, you never want to do it again. Once we had to deal with the spawns from the Eye, I could no longer sit content with the loot screen open waiting for the warrior to come back - they needed my help fighting.

It is not the solely fault of the player or class limitations for loss of loot.

It's solely the class design that moved us from a 5 second fix to a 10 minute "oh crap" adjustment period.

If you're going for ideal parties via druid inclusion...

Yeah, ideal parties are nice aren't they? Too bad you play with what you have. We played with what we had in both parties, and the 2nd showed the weakness of the druid design. The same exact battle outcome resulted in too much more frustration.

Currently, Moldan's key isn't an issue. I like rogues, but for a DM north trib run vet, killing guard mol'dan in the first courtyard and resetting is no big deal. If they make the key instance only and drops don't improve, it does become an issue.

Riiiiight, how about you read the patch notes from 1.5.0 again, or actually play DM Tribute before misleading people. Your if has been truth since the patch.

With druids, there's potentially less wipes with track humanoid ability too. Fewer patrols catch you off-guard. I certainly like that in DM north.

Not relevent enough to cover res. A well organized group doesn't need tracking to know where mobs can be. A Hunter can also do the same thing.

[Artega]

Can anyone tell me any of that is really preferable to simply having a Priest?
[right][snapback]81930[/snapback][/right]

One word for you: Retaliation.

Have the Warrior retaliate, have the Druid heal him, and then have the mage or warlock hop in with some extra AEing after the first couple of seconds of Retaliation. All six dogs will be firmly locked on the meaty Warrior, leaving your Warlock/Mage to AE all they want without worrying about aggro.

Alternately, don't die on the six dogs. I've done plenty of tribute runs where a Druid kept the Mage alive.

[Quark]

That's a little bit silly.&nbsp; If you had a rogue, 2 warriors and 2 warlocks ready to go, is it fair for them to expect to get the tribute?
[right][snapback]82028[/snapback][/right]

I don't consider it silly at all. You have Tank, Healing, AoE, DPS, Crowd Control, and off-tanking (pet) in both groups. Yet one group is completely inferior to another. Your example is lacking one of the two most important parts -> tank and healing.

[kandrathe]

Nit: In my experience, pets have been floating down when their player jumps recently.&nbsp; It wasn't always like that, but I'm pretty sure it is now.
[right][snapback]81953[/snapback][/right]

If they can find a run path they will take it, so I don't trust jumping with the pet.

[oldmandennis]

I don't consider it silly at all.&nbsp; You have Tank, Healing, AoE, DPS, Crowd Control, and off-tanking (pet) in both groups.&nbsp; Yet one group is completely inferior to another.&nbsp; Your example is lacking one of the two most important parts -> tank and healing.
[right][snapback]82031[/snapback][/right]

Well, then add "Res" to the list of requirements, and make it more important then AoE, which I find nice but highly optional.

You should also consider adding "Wipe recovery", meaning a shaman, a hunter with cables, or a warlock.