The New Ragnaros

[MongoJerry]

There's some grumbling on the official forums about the new much tougher Ragnaros (the group I raid with was at a complete loss on how to handle him on the day of the patch), and this post just made me smile:

Don't worry about it; they'll re-nerf him when Blackwing Lair comes out.

Then they can re-buff the Tier 2 set items, and as people progress through Blackwing Lair, they'll nerf the zone, then accidentally nerf the Tier 2 set items again, then re-buff those in a later patch, where they buff Nefarian and consider buffing his loot (because he'll probably drop a +8 SPR/+12 Arcane dmg caster choker). Then they'll nerf Nefarian once again when Zul'Gurub comes out and buff his loot, while buffing the Tier 2 set items once again. However, while Karazhan is Under Development, they'll re-re-buff Nefarian by fixing the 'bugs' they produced in the patch where they re-nerfed him.

As for Ragnaros? He'll probably be re-re-nerfed a few times during Blackwing Lair, to provide a zone for pick-up raids to progress through. However, if there are too many going through it, they'll re-buff Molten Core and Ragnaros, and, at a later date, re-re-re-nerf Ragnaros (probably when they nerf Karazhan). When Karazhan is nerfed, however, they'll have to re-buff Medivh's Evil Ghost while the Caverns of Time is in development, and re-re-nerf Medivh's Evil Ghost when Caverns of Time comes out. Since Caverns of Time is only a 5-man zone, they'll have to "fix the bugs" with Medivh and accidentally re-buff him while accidentally re-nerfing the loot, as Hyjal is under development.

With me so far? Good!

So, as people progress through Hyjal, Blackwing Lair will be re-re-nerfed and Karazhan will be re-nerfed, and when they get to the top of the mountain and face Lord Kazzak's Older Brother, they'll buff him while they re-buff Karazhan as a way to stop the uber guilds from progressing; however, while they are re-buffing Karazhan, parts of Hyjal will be 'fixed' (a.k.a. nerfed) while they re-re-re-re nerf Blackwing Lair and buff the Tier 3 items (as a stealth nerf to make Hyjal easier). Of course, they'll have to nerf the Tier 4 items so people will be confused and revert back to the Tier 3 items. However, when Lord Kazzak's Older Brother is defeated, they'll re-buff the Tier 4 items, re-nerf the Tier 3 items, re-re-nerf the Tier 2 items and re-buff the Tier 1 items, while re-re-re-re-nerfing Blackwing Lair and re-re-re-nerfing Karazhan, in order for the pick-up guilds to progress through a nerfed Hyjal, but a buffed Nefarian and buffed Medivh's Evil Ghost.

And then Emerald Dream comes out...

So funny, because it's so true.

[Quark]

So I was reading the posts there, and it seems that people's main complaint is how Blizzard changed the encounter to make sure Rogues die? Tank gets knocked back, causing him to lose aggro, 1-2 Rogues die before someone else can gain aggro? So Rogues go from being the most valuable class versus Ragnaros to one that becomes risky to use?

Sorry for all the questions, all I know about MC is what I hear from others.

Edit: If it is like this, it kind of sounds like the Prince fight in DM. No aggro rules that I've ever seen, so it's basically just pile it on and hope he doesn't pick the player you need most.

[MongoJerry]

So I was reading the posts there, and it seems that people's main complaint is how Blizzard changed the encounter to make sure Rogues die?  Tank gets knocked back, causing him to lose aggro, 1-2 Rogues die before someone else can gain aggro?  So Rogues go from being the most valuable class versus Ragnaros to one that becomes risky to use?

In a nutshell, yeah. He has this big knockback attack that causes the main tank to get flung away and lose aggro, and if people try to use the pre-patch tactic of going maximum all-out dps on him, then yeah all those high dps rogues are toast. However, from the hints people are giving without giving full details (It's interesting how secretive people are being now), it seems that one can still control the fight if one has a backup tank ready to go and if you don't have your rogues go all out in full dps mode. Also, I have a feeling that I think people are standing in the wrong spots now, so those rogues are getting hit with more lava damage than they should be. It's all speculation for me, though, since we haven't tried Ragnaros since Tuesday.

Edit: If it is like this, it kind of sounds like the Prince fight in DM.  No aggro rules that I've ever seen, so it's basically just pile it on and hope he doesn't pick the player you need most.

Nah, that's not true. Have your main tank tank him against the back wall, so that he doesn't get knocked back by the Prince. Also, have everyone come in close to the Prince so that if the main tank does end up losing aggro at some point, the tank can quickly taunt him and get it back again. It's only when parties scatter and run around chaotically that the Prince has a chance to win that fight.

[Taeme]

You guys don't really like challenges eh?

[MongoJerry]

You guys don't really like challenges eh?

Please don't troll.

[Taeme]

Please don't troll.
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I'm serious. The fight is hard, but it's far from undoable by a well geared group. He wasn't buffed btw, they fixed two bugged abilities and actually nerfed the splashes.

[Quark]

I'm serious. The fight is hard, but it's far from undoable by a well geared group. He wasn't buffed btw, they fixed two bugged abilities and actually nerfed the splashes.
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So? Did MongoJerry state that his group thought the fight was too hard? That the encounter shouldn't have been changed from "oh, lets bring our twinked Rogue alts in now?" No, he stated that there's rumblings on the forums (there are), his group hasn't figured it out yet (they will, but sometimes it takes time to get it right), and linked to a funny post (that has some truth to it). I don't see anything to cause your response. :huh:

[MongoJerry]

I'm serious. The fight is hard, but it's far from undoable by a well geared group. He wasn't buffed btw, they fixed two bugged abilities and actually nerfed the splashes.

And I'm serious when I ask you not to troll. Nothing in what I said stated or implied what I personally thought of the changes to the encounter. I simply linked to a very funny post that I thought people here would enjoy. If you want my opinion on the encounter itself, I'll say that I'm happy that the changes were made, because the supposed highest boss currently in the game shouldn't have been the joke encounter that he was before. However, you're quite wrong. They did buff him significantly. First, the splashes weren't nerfed. Sure, an individual splah causes less damage, but they come a lot more frequently compared to the almost nonexistant splashes in the pre-patch Ragnaros encounter. However, our group was prepared for that. What we weren't prepared for on the first night of the patch was the new knockback attack on the main tank. That simple attack changes the encounter significantly. We tried a few ideas, but after a handful of attempts, people wanted to stop and go play the new battlegrounds some. Besides, we didn't really have our "A" team in the instance anyway, so we were having problems just from inexperienced members of the raid not doing what they were supposed to. We stopped, figuring we could start fresh the following week and bring the "A" team in to see what we can do.

I have some vague ideas of what to try and mentioned them in a post above. It sounds like, however, that you do have an idea of how to handle the main tank knockback attack (which is different from the grenade attack). If you would care to enlighten us on that and perhaps give some suggestions on where tanking and melee dps players should be placed, I would appreciate that. If, however, all you can do is insult me and the group I raid with, I ask that you refrain from doing that.

[Rinnhart]

Don't know much about the ragnaros event, but can he be wall tanked? That's how I've always seen knockback attacks on raid bosses handled before (assuming, of course, he can be lead to a wall for tanking- rooted bosses are a bit more interesting).

[Taeme]

It sounds like, however, that you do have an idea of how to handle the main tank knockback attack (which is different from the grenade attack).  If you would care to enlighten us on that and perhaps give some suggestions on where tanking and melee dps players should be placed, I would appreciate that.  If, however, all you can do is insult me and the group I raid with, I ask that you refrain from doing that.
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First off, I didn't insult the group you raided with. It's an offhand comment. And yes, posting something with 'I find this funny' is usually a way of saying 'I agree with it'. I don't agree with people falling into the 'the developers are #$%&ing us again' mentality. The encounter was bugged all to Hell and it let people outdps it to avoid the stupid splashes. Beating a boss when it was bugged and we all knew it was bugged is, well ... Hell we all did it.

Second, they fixed bugs. Bug fixing is not buffing. The splashes didn't even occur period in stage 1 of the fight before they fixed it after you wiped once. You admitted before that you were letting him clear his splashes with a wipe. That was a bug. They fixed it. They were also enviromental damage, meaning it was a random 1500 strike that you could not resist, just like lava, which make the whole thing random and stupid. That is a nerf. The splashes before were absolutely mind-numbingly brutal. You HAD to overdps him to stay out of post-Sons, because if you didn't the splashes would wipe your dps to a man and then kill your healers in very short order.

As to Wrath of Ragnaros, which is the PBAoE that knocks back the MT, they fixed that as well. This is not exactly buffing : This is how Ragnaros was supposed to be.before the patch. Trust me, he did have that ability and it was active, it was just under-ranged for some odd reason. Ask your MT or whoever first attempted the encounter, they probably knew to stay at max range from Ragnaros at all times. It went from 18 yards to 25 yards in the patch. You were outdistancing it before and can likely avoid it now. I don't know how. I know that you were able to before though. I believe it's measured from the centre of ragnaros, since 25 yards from his body would be pretty damn big.

Third, from what I know of the fight, I don't believe you can't position to avoid lava splashes (I believe they're just random damage) and I am told that while rogues can be still useful, they have to be a lot smarter than they were before. Beyond that I haven't actually done the encounter yet, but I'm looking forward to Ragnaros being interesting for all of the fight, instead of the awfulness that was 'dps dps dps OH GOD SONS dps splash kills eight rogues dps loot loot loot' before.

And I am in a pretty secretive guild so I can't go read the official strats (which I haven't yet) and tell you them. Sorry. This is just from what I know of the fight before doing it.

[savaughn]

And I am in a pretty secretive guild so I can't go read the official strats (which I haven't yet) and tell you them. Sorry. This is just from what I know of the fight before doing it.
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So, in other words, you haven't done it yourself, you don't know how, but you're comfortable insulting people who haven't figured it out yet. And you don't consider that trolling.

Right!

I'm getting my sign back out.

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[Phoenix]

Bug fixing is not buffing.

Bullcrap. If something becomes better, it's buffed. Whether it becomes better because a bug was fixed, or because there's increased damage or whatever doesn't matter. When the code is changed so something is better, it's a buff.

And yes, posting something with 'I find this funny' is usually a way of saying 'I agree with it'.

Saying that a post about ever-fluctuating nerfs and buffs on different raid instances is funny is not at all the same thing as "I agree that Ragnaros is too hard".

[Quark]

Second, they fixed bugs. Bug fixing is not buffing.
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Just like bug fixing isn't nerfing? Tell the Paladins that. The necessity of a change does not affect whether or not it's a buff or nerf.

[Zoid]

So, in other words, you haven't done it yourself, you don't know how, but you're comfortable insulting people who haven't figured it out yet.  And you don't consider that trolling.

I am in the same guild as Taeme. I was in the group that killed him. He dropped Priest and Hunter pants as well as a nice hunter hat and ring.

I'm not really a fan of being secretive, but I respect our guild wishes. I'll give you a bit of a tidbit, however.

The splashes were fixed to be there all the time, but you can resist them now. With 150 fire resist on my priest they only do less than 200 damage to me on average. The melee range knockback can be resisted with fire resist as well. I think you're seeing a trend here.

Ragnaros is not an easy fight, unless you have proper gear for your characters you're going to have problems. You can't just go from half completing your blue set from Strath/Scholo/BRS to killing Ragnaros. You need to work at getting the materials and equipment suited to the fight. Get your guild to work on their fire resistance gear.

[Mavfin]

So, in other words, you haven't done it yourself, you don't know how, but you're comfortable insulting people who haven't figured it out yet.  And you don't consider that trolling.

Right!

I'm getting my sign back out.

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| . . . . . DO NOT FEED THE TROLL . . . . . . .|
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Kids, take the insults and personal attacks elsewhere. Any more of it and this thread is closed.

[Taeme]

I don't personally think bug fixing should be seen as a nerf or a buff. Essentially speaking you're looking at an element of the game that doesn't work how it's supposed to, and it's being brought back into order. Yes, it does change the game, but nerfs and buffs are aimed at changing game balance, while this is just fixing it - it depends on your thoughts on the vocabulary. Nerfs are bad, but bugfixes are pretty much how things will always go. And this game, this game be full of bugs.

Honestly, to me a buff would be something like Shazzrah. We can disagree on the terminology but that doesn't essentially change the fact Ragnaros was bugged before.

So, in other words, you haven't done it yourself, you don't know how, but you're comfortable insulting people who haven't figured it out yet.  And you don't consider that trolling.

Right!

I'm getting my sign back out.

*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . DO NOT FEED THE TROLL . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
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I like when people get self-righteous about how they feel other people are trolling and basically behave in a hypocritical manner that helps no one. It's pretty impressive. I like the sign by the way, it reminds me of people spamming macros on IRC or somesuch nonsense.

I've done the encounter now, by the way. It's pretty interesting. I didn't realise you could resist the wrath as well. Seems FR is even MORE important for the tank now.


Hi Mavfin!