I'm convinced the town I work in is full of crazy people.

[shoju]

I was really hoping that I would be able to get through election day in this sleepy little town without witnessing the craziness that accompanied the first presidential election I was here for.

Nope. Not going to happen. Outside of the Post Office were a pair of people with a table, and lots of signs trying to convince the public that President Obama knew and was complicit in the 9/11/12 attacks in Libya that killed American Ambassador Chris Stevens.

They have gone all out. They procured some Obama posters, and took the time to oh so delicately (in black sharpie) give Obama a Hitler Mustache. They have signs saying "Impeach Obama! 9/11/12 HE KNEW".

The woman who was working their little "Booth" tried to talk to me on my way in, and on my way out. Apparently, the look on my face of "really?" on that way in was not enough to deter her. And on the way out she tried again, "Come on over, join the fun"

I looked at the growing police presence and back at them, and said "You don't want to hear my opinion" and walked away.

After I picked up my lunch, I drove by again, hoping to snap some photos of their silly little booth, but I'm fairly confident that every cop in Shelby was there by that time. Parked in front, parked across the street, and standing around, obviously discussing what they could do.

Obviously, they can't tell them they can't demonstrate, it's a public sidewalk, and they have the right to gather and "do their thing", but I'm pretty sure that the police are going to make them move their awesome obstruction to somewhere where it isn't obstructing the curbside parking, and the sidewalk all at the same time.

Now, so far the craziness hasn't hit the N word level of the 2008 post election trip to McDonald's (that's a crazy story there.), but we'll see tomorrow what happens. Yes. When Kaine (Lurker, knows Frag and I and a few others) and I went to lunch the day the results were announced in '08, we were greeted with a litany of crazy talk over lunch, most of it racially motivated, culminating with a man staring at the TV and saying "That damn ***** stole the election."

I just... /facepalm.

[eppie]

Pretty late this election for a election topic to pop up here on the lounge. The more i read the more i am convinced there is something seriously wrong over there. Too much influence of big money. Screaming endlessly that it is the land of the free doesn't make it so.
Of course more than 95% of the world hopes for an obama win, but it wont change the heart of this war mongering, minority hating, money loving majority. Even worse is that we in europe are a bunch of sheep and want to do everything like you do. The more i think about it the less problems i have with china becoming the worlds super power.

[shoju]

Oh, this isn't an election topic. This is a "Crazy stuff that happens in this creepy town I work in around the election" topic.

These people are convinced that Obama didn't just know, but that he was actually complicit in the acts that happened in Libya. They aren't trying to disuade you from voting. They are trying to get people riled up. The "people" can't even "start" the impeachment process. It's solely handled by the House of Representatives. This was just fear mongering, and conspiracy crazies out and about in this oddly weird little town I work in.

I wont like, there are a lot of things that I love about the US. But trust me, I look at some parts of Europe, and say "That's not too frikken' bad". If I could find a place that had American style first and second amendment rights, I could probably live a very happy life.

And by second amendment rights, I'm not talking assault weapons. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. I like to hunt from time to time, and I like to go to a gun range, and blow through 20 bucks in ammo. It's a good time.

[FireIceTalon]

And you are surprised by this stuff? I'm not - it is the norm, and it just gets sillier and more pathetic with each election. Pretty much why I chose International Relations as my area of focus for my major instead. American politics is one big, nasty train wreck.

Obama is the lesser of two evils, but I don't vote for any evils - be they lesser or greater. I suppose under another Obama term that Medicare/Medicaid, pell grants, women's reproductive, healthcare rights and economic security, will last a bit longer, and perhaps delay a war with Iran. But all roads lead to austerity, and ultimately fascism, just one faster than the other. So what is it going to be, gentleman? A complete Republican/Tea Party summary execution, or Democratic victory and death by a million little cuts? Take your pick.

@eppie, I don't want ANY nation to be a superpower. It doesn't matter if its America, China, or whoever - it is all bad.

[kandrathe]

And by second amendment rights, I'm not talking assault weapons. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. I like to hunt from time to time, and I like to go to a gun range, and blow through 20 bucks in ammo. It's a good time.

Not to get distracted in a "crazy crap people do" thread, but the intention of the 2nd amendment gives you the right to defend, your life, liberty and stuff -- it says nothing of hunting. What is the difference between an assault weapon, and one I use to defend my home from a zombie horde?

[DeeBye]

Edwards: Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it.
Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

[shoju]

It says right to bear arms. I am perfectly fine with people wanting to own guns, shotguns, rifles, hand guns. I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

[GhastMaster]

It says right to bear arms. I am perfectly fine with people wanting to own guns, shotguns, rifles, hand guns. I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

I'm glad you believe in personal defense. However, did you miss the part about a well regulated militia? Do you think the 2nd amendment should be changed to reflect your opinion?

If so:
Have you ever considered what would happen if we lost major battles and were subsequently invaded without a well armed citizenry? Ever consider how nice everyone would be in public if we all had machine guns on our backs?

[Taem]

It says right to bear arms. I am perfectly fine with people wanting to own guns, shotguns, rifles, hand guns. I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

I'm glad you believe in personal defense. However, did you miss the part about a well regulated militia? Do you think the 2nd amendment should be changed to reflect your opinion?

If so:
Have you ever considered what would happen if we lost major battles and were subsequently invaded without a well armed citizenry? Ever consider how nice everyone would be in public if we all had machine guns on our backs?

Two words: Red Dawn

[kandrathe]

I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

What good are guns without {am}munitions? In the US, we can own any type of weapon. Certain weapons, when owned by civilians, are permitted with the ATF. They check to see that you are in fact, normal (i.e. sane, non-felon, citizen).

How about; http://driveatank.com/

[eppie]

Oh, this isn't an election topic. This is a "Crazy stuff that happens in this creepy town I work in around the election" topic.

We have lots of loony's here as well. I just think our election proces works a bit better in general.
Isn't it so that the US does not want to have international controllers to have a look if the election process occurs fair and correct?

The story you mention here would in Holland lead to things like official investigation, public outrage, arrests etc.

---

I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

What good are guns without {am}munitions? In the US, we can own any type of weapon. Certain weapons, when owned by civilians, are permitted with the ATF. They check to see that you are in fact, normal (i.e. sane, non-felon, citizen).

How about; http://driveatank.com/

We have had this discussion before and I have come to really understand and respect your point of view on this one.
For the same reason I want to get a house with big garden and produce my own electricity and grow my own food.
When things go wrong owning a gun can be good for a person, but I hardly think it would end up alright.
Yes you will be able to defend yourself against your neighboor but not against some army or militia group.

In the meanwhile it is a fact that people owning guns leads to more violent crimes (every burglar brings a gun when he enters a house) and more victims, both among the cirminal and the 'defender'.

So this is my reasoning why I am still against your gun laws, eventhough i respect and understand your reasoning.

[bldavis]

It says right to bear arms. I am perfectly fine with people wanting to own guns, shotguns, rifles, hand guns. I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

I'm glad you believe in personal defense. However, did you miss the part about a well regulated militia? Do you think the 2nd amendment should be changed to reflect your opinion?

If so:
Have you ever considered what would happen if we lost major battles and were subsequently invaded without a well armed citizenry? Ever consider how nice everyone would be in public if we all had machine guns on our backs?

isnt it sweden that the populous is required to serve in the military and to own at least one firearm?
oh and also has the lowest crimerate in the world...

[kandrathe]

So this is my reasoning why I am still against your gun laws, even though i respect and understand your reasoning.

I respect yours as well. And, in fact, while I do have some hunting guns my Dad left to me, I don't have any "self defense" type guns in the house. I'm not really interested in owning or shooting them. I believe (and have found) conflict can be deflected or avoided.

My position is strictly for the same reason I believe in the 1st amendment right to free speech. I'm not a hate spewing radical, but I defend the rights of hate spewing radicals to free speech. I don't want the government censoring people.

For arms, I don't want the government to rule on whether you have the right to defend yourself. I choose not to own those types of guns, but I support the rights of others to choose for themselves.

[shoju]

I'm glad you believe in personal defense. However, did you miss the part about a well regulated militia? Do you think the 2nd amendment should be changed to reflect your opinion?

If so:
Have you ever considered what would happen if we lost major battles and were subsequently invaded without a well armed citizenry? Ever consider how nice everyone would be in public if we all had machine guns on our backs?

No. I didn't miss the part about the militia. But I feel a lot has transpired since the acceptance of the 2nd amendment, and today. Most Militia's today are fringe groups, right out there with "Preppers."

If we were invaded without a well armed citizenry? Well, I would expect then that our allies would probably step in as well. A smart invading force would quash the majority of a well armed citizenry. That's a school of thought that is outdated with the advances in military technology.

And Nice? No. That's not nice. That's called Fear. You see that type of fear and "nice" that you call it in countries that are going through civil strife right now.

I'm not ok with normal people owning assault weapons, automatic weapons, and munitions.

What good are guns without {am}munitions? In the US, we can own any type of weapon. Certain weapons, when owned by civilians, are permitted with the ATF. They check to see that you are in fact, normal (i.e. sane, non-felon, citizen).

How about; http://driveatank.com/

No sir. You are confusing Ammunition with Munitions, or maybe don't understand the difference used in my line of work, (military Surplus)

Ammunition, would be your bullets. Meant for guns.

Munitions, are larger mortars, RPG's, etc...

Ammunition Trailer - this is how they handle ammunition used in handguns, rifles, machine guns, etc...


Munitions Trailer - This is how they transport Mortars, RPG's, Cannons, Cannon Shells, etc...


If you want to get technical, sure. With enough money you can own any gun you want. But you can't just go down to the corner store and buy it. In Ohio, you are not allowed to own or possess a weapon that is fully automatic, unless you carry the proper licensing by the ATF, and even then, you will be hard pressed to find a place that you are allowed to shoot it (outside of owning a place to shoot it)

That doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't agree that you should be allowed to own an UZI (Full Auto), or fully Auto AK-47, or similar "combat" / Tactical firearm.

You want to own a completely badass tricked out AR-15 Semi Auto?
Fine.

You want to own an AK47 style 10round clip .12 gauge shotgun?
Fine

You want to own an AK47 fully automatic machine gun?
No. I'm not ok with that.

[GhastMaster]

...Ever consider how nice everyone would be in public if we all had machine guns on our backs?

...And Nice? No. That's not nice. That's called Fear. You see that type of fear and "nice" that you call it in countries that are going through civil strife right now.

Touché. Now I ponder the root of why people are nice in the first place.

[kandrathe]

Touché. Now I ponder the root of why people are nice in the first place.

Fear. If you aren't nice, you'll have no friends and no date for the prom.

No sir. You are confusing Ammunition with Munitions...

I looked up the definition. It can mean either arms or ammunition. War materials. Arms and ammunition are munitions.

With respect to militia, then and now; Then, militia were roughly trained townsfolk defending their property, now we have a state militia in states national guards. The self proclaimed "militia" are not really militia in the constitutional sense other than that we are all militia if we choose to be. Wikipedia topic on the constitutional meaning of militia.... If anything, the implication was that for national defense we rely on states training the populace who provide their own arms and ammunition.

County sheriffs, town police, and swat teams are also examples of local militia.

[shoju]

I wont argue that munitions can refer to multiple things. I should have stated that I was clarifying what I meant it as.

And I agree with you about the definition of militias. The problem that I have with how things are worded, is that it has led to a rise of these fringe "militias". I'm all in favor of your right to defend that which is yours, and I'm all for personal protection, but I'm not really on board with the right to automatic weapons.

I think at some point, you have to draw a line. My line is automatic weapons. I've had the experience of shooting them. It is a real rush, and shooting my handgun at the range isn't quite the same as lining up with an automatic AR15 and throwing a storm of lead down a range. I think that I could personally be responsible for, and with a weapon like that. But somewhere in life, I realized that you have to account for the Lowest Common Denominator in things like this, and I decided that Automatic Weapons are not the type of thing that I think need to be obtainable by Joe Schmoe.

I'm not going to go out of my way to campaign for it. I think there are far bigger things to worry about that gun reform, but if it became an issue, then yes. I would be in favor of further restrictions on access to weapons like that.

[kandrathe]

But somewhere in life, I realized that you have to account for the Lowest Common Denominator in things like this, and I decided that Automatic Weapons are not the type of thing that I think need to be obtainable by Joe Schmoe.

Where do you stop? You can't handle that kind of horsepower, you get to drive a lawn mower to work.

If my neighbor, Joe Schmoe, had a bunch of RPG's I'd be fine with it. He's a sane and reasonable fellow, not prone to irresponsible use. But, you are correct in that there needs to be a reasonable line between the potential misuse of a butter knife and a thermo-nuclear weapon. So, for example, when it comes to flying on a plane, it seems we cannot trust anyone with even a butter knife. But, I don't see too much difference in having to press the trigger 16 times, versus once. It hardly matters to those down range. The key thing here is that the purpose of owning the weapon is in that it is meant to kill people effectively. We either give that power to the non-felon, sane, citizen, or we don't.

Who gets to determine your capabilities, and limitations? I think our system, while imperfect, assumes that within reason, until you mess up, you are responsible for those things you do/own. In practice, we've often neutered our freedoms on the off chance someone "might" misuse them. We legislate by extreme anecdotes, rather than by real data and statistics. It is probably good common sense to be hyper cautious on the thermo-nuclear end of the spectrum, but it becomes ridiculous as we've practiced it with possible misuse of butter knives whilst flying.

[DeeBye]

The key thing here is that the purpose of owning the weapon is in that it is meant to kill people effectively. We either give that power to the non-felon, sane, citizen, or we don't.

I consider myself a fairly sane person, and the idea of owning a device that has the sole function of killing another person of my choosing with the press of a button is repulsive to me. I have no problem with people wanting to own guns for hunting or target shooting, but wanting to own a gun that is specifically designed to kill a person or a group of people in the most effective manner is absolutely horrifying.

[FireIceTalon]

Eh, I can't believe I am agreeing with Kandrathe. But the function of a weapon I think means little at the end of the day, you can kill someone with a .22 or with an AK-47. Hell, you don't need a gun to kill someone. If I really wanted to do that, I could just as easily snap someone's neck with my bare hands, or I could go Bruce Willis style: