Blizzard vs. Real Money Trading (RMT)

[Bolty]

Blizzard has now removed the "listing fee" concept. Blizzard will charge $1.25 for each successful sale, meaning that if you sell Uber Item of Amazing Awesomeness for $8, you will end up with $6.75 in your Battle.Net account.

This means that players are able to list items without risk of losing money, but listing something for anything $1.25 or less will cost you money. You are also limited to 10 auctions at a time.

[Wiccan]

Hmm, so now they have to up there prices to make money.. say like dangeritemseller wanted to make money he could up knowingly up his price to 15.75 he would still make 14 .50 off the item{s} that he listed.. do they say why they removed the listing fee?

[swirly]

do they say why they removed the listing fee?

Pure speculation on my part in this post, but I think it makes sense. A listing fee puts a burden on the seller to only post what they know can sell and it discourages people from trying the system out. Basically acts like a barrier to entry. Only those willing to risk losing money on something not selling can take part.

So getting rid of the listing fee and using a per sale fee instead removes that. Now there is no barrier to entry other than listing a price of at least $1.25. (to break even) Thus anybody even tempted to sell can do so. Should result in a much stronger seller base.

From a buyers perspective it makes it so there is a min amount you will ever spend. I'm not sure it really increases the cost of items overall though. A serious seller in a listing fee system would have to add a buffer cost to all their items in order to compensate for whatever percentage of listed items don't sell. Would that compensation be more or less than $1.25? Beats me. I'm just saying that in either system there is that pressure to raise prices to compensate for such. In the end though I don't really think it works out that way.

It all depends on supply and demand. If an item is so rare that only a small number sell it then they set their price at some high point that some sucker is willing to pay. If that sucker is willing to pay more then they would already be charging the higher price anyway due to lack of competition keeping the price down. So they don't really raise their price based on that sale fee due to their price already being as high as will sell. Though now they can feel free to test the waters with a really high price since they won't be charged when the sale fails. With a listing fee system they would have to start out more reasonable to try and limit fails.

On the other hand, if there are multiple sellers then there is pressure to be lower than the others without lowering the overall market. If they all up the price (and people are still willing to pay) then they can, but with a decent amount of sellers there will always be some that stick to a specific price which thus prevents others from raising their price. Basically the increase in seller competition from having no listing fee should keep prices down on anything not super rare.

So I think it is a good move. It opens the selling side up to anyone who wants to stick their toe in and likely doesn't really hurt the buying side other than maybe super rare items being slightly more before the market is known for them, but they still have to bow to what demand is willing to pay.

I know that from my perspective I would be much more hesitant with real money at risk for even listing an item. As a first time seller I'd be scared that it wouldn't sell and I'd lose money. So likely would not bother or if I did risk it I would undercut the market by a large margin to be sure it sells. With there being no risk of money loss I'd feel comfortable putting something up and seeing what happens without such a large undercut. I have no data to say that others feel similar, but it seems reasonable to me.

[Roland]

You know, I find the more I read about Daeity's musings on Blizzard the more disgusted I become with the company. Honestly, I'm beginning to see that if I don't take a step back, or away, from it I'll end up ruining any chance at playing this game out of sheer disgust over the company that's made it. It's becoming harder and harder for me to separate my enjoyment of the game from the forces that created (and, more importantly, shaped) it. I don't know that I have a solution to that quandary.

[Bolty]

You know, I find the more I read about Daeity's musings on Blizzard the more disgusted I become with the company.

Take a step back, though. If you knew about the internal workings and machinations of any entertainment company, you'd develop the same viewpoint.

In the end, companies are out to make money. Behind the PR fronts that each and every company on earth puts up is a grubby, messy, dirty underbelly that is kept hidden from the public. It may seem more offensive when it involves an entertainment company, but it's the same anywhere you go.

[Roland]

Take a step back, though. If you knew about the internal workings and machinations of any entertainment company, you'd develop the same viewpoint.

In the end, companies are out to make money. Behind the PR fronts that each and every company on earth puts up is a grubby, messy, dirty underbelly that is kept hidden from the public. It may seem more offensive when it involves an entertainment company, but it's the same anywhere you go.

Is it though? I can't imagine that all human beings are so bloodsucking and heinous. Honestly, do you truly believe that? Are you truly resigned to that? I understand that it's a business. I work for a living, at a job that bears my name on the company logo, so I know all about making money. What I also know about, and refuse to participate in, is putting money before principles. I do not see how Blizzard is keeping the same path.

Or, to put it into better perspective, why are you OK with what Blizzard is doing, but now OK with what EA and/or Bioware are doing? What sets one apart from the other?

Blizzard, in my eyes, is actively working to swindle you. They are creating mechanisms and steering their entire platform around fucking you over for their own profit. I expect that sort of behavior from the likes of EA, but it's been my experience that either the developers or the customers or both have enough sway and pushback to keep that moderately in check. Blizzard has nothing of the sort - just legions of new fanbois bred on WoW, who have no knowledge nor desire to learn about Blizzard's past, their foundations, their principles. Blizzard saw a mass exodus of employees - for whatever their reasons, but from what little I've heard it's because of a genuine disagreement in the direction of the games and the company. That sounds to me like the guys who made Torchlight, and Hellgate: London, and Mythos, and whatever else didn't want to follow the direction Blizzard has been, and currently is, taking.

I know what you're saying Bolty about business - they need to make money, to turn a profit. I get that. My livelihood depends on that just as much as theirs, if not more so. Even so, I'd rather see my company fail - honorably - than resort to the sorts of practices they are engaging in. Maybe that makes me a poor businessman, putting scruples over survivability, but I like to sleep at night (however little I get). I understand that there are far worse companies out there (Zynga, for example), but I have to believe there are far better, and I also have to believe that Blizzard was not always about profits. I think, in creating WoW, they have lost focus on what made them great in the past. I think they've lost their true passion, and I think it's been done so slowly and subtly that they don't even realize it. Honestly, I pity the developers there that I am sure have tried to resist the commands from higher up (as possibly noted in the recent Skill Rune changes), but I cannot seem to separate my personal beliefs regarding the ethics of the company from the product they produce.

World of Warcraft, IMHO, is a mediocre game. Starcraft II is a mediocre game. Diablo III is a mediocre game. I'm tired of mediocrity, but more over, I'm not willing to put up with mediocrity designed to milk me for every dollar I have. I pay damn good money (too much!) to game companies that deliver something, and on principles that far outweigh Blizzard's. You do not see the level of narcissism and greed at Wargaming.net, nor Hi-Rez Studios, nor Bethesda. I have paid untold amounts of money for League of Legends, World of Tanks, and Tribes: Ascend. I have bought into Alphas and Betas to support developers that don't even have a finished product - some of them nowhere near complete! - because I believe in what the developer is doing, I see a good (possibly great) game within their desires, and I want to support them in their efforts. I do not feel the same way about Blizzard anymore.

I see absolutely no reason for me to buy into Blizzard's bullshit except for the chance to have some truly awesome games with some truly awesome people - and it has nothing to do with what game I'm playing. The game is merely a vehicle for enjoyment and camaraderie, but in purchasing that vehicle I help fund a company that I am learning to despise. It's a painful choice for me to have to make. At this point I'm still intending to purchase Diablo III, but it's not with any excitement or, even, any true enjoyment. It's just so that I may once again fight side-by-side with people whom I've grown connected to (in some way) over the years. To build stronger bonds with existing friends, and forge new bonds with strangers. I am not, in any way, impressed by Diablo III. I am offended by the company behind it. There are simply too many negative things for me to turn a blind eye to.

Anyway, enough ranting and rambling. Sirian has the right idea - don't dissect everything, just play the damn game and find some fun in it. I'm hoping I can do that - I truly am. I just don't know that truly want to over making an actual stand in the only meaningful way I can - by not purchasing the game. We'll see what I ultimately decide, but after the disappointment that was SCII and now Diablo III, I'm debating even buying the rest of the SCII trilogy - something I was looking forward to buying when they announced it, despite my agreement that it's a cop-out to milk more money from customers. I could handle buying a glorified expansion pack at an inflated price when I believed in the company, and wanted to collect the extra goodies for posterity's sake, but not now. I'd be surprised if I've put in more than 30 hours in SCII, a game I eagerly bought the CE for, and one that I have virtually no desire to return to. Contrast that with the likes of World of Tanks, or Tribes: Ascend, both of which I've spent as much if not more than the price of the CE for Diablo III (and the latter isn't even out yet), and will happily continue to do so because I enjoy the games. I have no problem with paying continually for enjoyment, even if it costs me far more than the old model of gaming. I wholeheartedly embrace a proper Freemium model, or even a model that requires purchasing the game upfront, and paying for additional content (ala Skyrim, Oblivion, etc.) As long as it's ethical and not game-breaking - ala "pay-to-win" - I have no problem with it. I refuse to support pay-to-win scenarios, though. It ruins the game, IMHO.

And yes, I'm still ranting. Enough for one post. We'll see what happens, and I'll try to find some faith that Blizzard is better than they appear.

[MongoJerry]

do they say why they removed the listing fee?

My understanding is that they did it to avoid anti-gambling rules in some countries.

Personally, I think the RMAH is fine. Such a market existed from the very beginning of Diablo II. The only difference here is that it'll be a much more secure process. I admit that I actually bought a couple of Diablo II items for real money on EBay (*shock!* *horror!*) for about $10 that I needed for a specific build I was trying to play. I then sold a couple of items for real money on EBay to recoup that $10. If you're not the type that has to have every uber-l33t item in the game, then this shouldn't affect you at all. Personally, as you know, I tend to go the opposite direction: I beat a game with better gear and then try to see if I can keep beating it using worse gear but better tactics.

The only issue I have with it is not with the RMAH itself but the way that items drop in the game. I was disappointed to see in the great "Devil in the Details" podcast video that items drop on the ground the way they did in Diablo II. This makes me fear the old Baal runs where when Baal got to a sliver of health, suddenly everyone huddled over his body and snatched every item up that popped as fast as they could -- and the winner was the one who was the fastest clicker or perhaps had a mod or bot that helped with the looting process. This won't be such a big deal if you're only playing solo or with friends, but I actually do like to venture into the unknown world of meeting people via pug'ing, and if rare or epic loot (whatever the terms will be for Diablo III) just plops on the ground, then the possibility of being able to sell things on the RMAH will make this looting process even more cut-throat. I hope that they change it so that certain types of items get rolled on the way they do on WoW.

[Mavfin]

The only issue I have with it is not with the RMAH itself but the way that items drop in the game. I was disappointed to see in the great "Devil in the Details" podcast video that items drop on the ground the way they did in Diablo II. This makes me fear the old Baal runs where when Baal got to a sliver of health, suddenly everyone huddled over his body and snatched every item up that popped as fast as they could -- and the winner was the one who was the fastest clicker or perhaps had a mod or bot that helped with the looting process.

This will not be a problem. In co-op, all the loot you see drop is yours. Other people have their own drops. No one else knows what dropped for you, and you don't know what dropped for them. So, there's no more 'grabbing for loot'. The only way for that to happen is for you to pick up one of your drops and toss it back on the floor. Then it's free-for-all for the fastest clicker, but as long as you don't do that, what you see drop is yours, including gold.

Health globes are shared; i.e. they affect the whole group, no matter who grabs them. So far, even barrels and corpses drop their own loot for you, even if you don't pop them. The exception, as far as I've been able to tell is the lecterns in the Cathedral with lore books on them, you have to pop those yourself, and they drop gold, too, but, once again, no one else sees what you get.

OT thought: I'm wondering if the 'new' LFR loot model for MoP came from what they did to solve this problem in D3...

Edit: So, the effect of the RMAH on this is lessened. The main effect will be that in public games, people will most of the time keep what they pick up, and not offer to trade among the group. Friends will, though. When co-oping with friends in the beta, I tossed a weapon that I was pretty sure (I think) Roland could use as an upgrade, and he could, but until I tossed it on the floor, or offered trade, he didn't even know it existed.

[MongoJerry]

This will not be a problem. In co-op, all the loot you see drop is yours. Other people have their own drops. No one else knows what dropped for you, and you don't know what dropped for them. So, there's no more 'grabbing for loot'. The only way for that to happen is for you to pick up one of your drops and toss it back on the floor. Then it's free-for-all for the fastest clicker, but as long as you don't do that, what you see drop is yours, including gold.

That's wonderful!

OT thought: I'm wondering if the 'new' LFR loot model for MoP came from what they did to solve this problem in D3...

Possibly -- in the same way that WoW introduced soulbound items and random loot rolls as a way to solve problems that existed in Diablo II.

[Treesh]

The only issue I have with it is not with the RMAH itself but the way that items drop in the game. I was disappointed to see in the great "Devil in the Details" podcast video that items drop on the ground the way they did in Diablo II. This makes me fear the old Baal runs where when Baal got to a sliver of health, suddenly everyone huddled over his body and snatched every item up that popped as fast as they could -- and the winner was the one who was the fastest clicker or perhaps had a mod or bot that helped with the looting process.

The exception, as far as I've been able to tell is the lecterns in the Cathedral with lore books on them, you have to pop those yourself, and they drop gold, too, but, once again, no one else sees what you get.

Minor correction, if someone who has already received that bit of lore touches a lectern, it'll drop only gold for everyone, but if you haven't collected that lore then you can click it again and get the scroll and sometimes more gold.

I love the fact that the orbs heal everyone too. This is how I get to play healer even when I'm not on my monk. If I'm ranged, I go stand by an orb. If some of the other folks get really hurt and don't notice it or are being stubborn and don't drink a potion, I can just sidestep onto the orb and then go move next to another one for the next time. =)