Maybe Barb Masteries need a bump up

[Guest]

Right now it seems like barbs just dont compare with the other melee classes in damage out put.

I like the new options for bonus skills, but they dont seem to catch up with paladins and werewolve(bears seem pretty wimpy too). Maybe let barb masteries approach paladin auras in effectiveness.

[IlleglWpns]

No way. Barbarians already have good damage and the BEST survivability in the game. Just because they don't do as much raw damage as a paladin or werewolf in some circumstances doesn't mean they need a boost.

[Ignatz]

I mean, I just built a strain of WW barb and he was powerful, certainly, but not in a way that I felt was broken. I used a 250% CCB with three sockets and his killing speed was good, but not better than my Avenger or even melee Assassin. In fact, WW felt relatively balanced to me. People may disagree with me on that point, but I'd say it takes me about 20-30 seconds to kill a dozen guys with WW in a 4-5 player game in hell. With the new, harder brand hell, I would expect this would work out nicely.

But I'm worried that they'll remove the 100% crit strike, nerf WW (which it appears they did), and not give the barb a bone otherwise.

I'm severely disappointed so far that the Barb, who is a good, solid, relatively balanced character is getting knocked down a couple pegs, while the 'Zon is a damage dealing horror (yeah, it's pun...sue me). It doesn't seem to me that the Zon has been nerfed much, if at all, yet she's by far, and I mean by FAR the most broken character. I just built one, after an Assassin, Were druid, and WW Barb and the difference between she and the others was simply ridiculous. She kills at 5 times the rate of any of them, fears nothing at all, and only stops long enough to grab the loot.

[Guest]

Really?

The damage isnt even close to a paladins potential - through several builds. And only the concentrate barb barb maintains his high survivability.

The bezerk barb losses life leach. And for the freny barb now will give up signifigant survival skills to get damage which is still less than a paladin.

Perhaps WW will be viable now which would give barbs 1 good attack. I think Ill try to test it.

Maybe the thought is trade damage for survival. But if thats the case damage will probably win once people start designing builds/

[kandrathe]

I disagree. Or, is this a joke? Barbarians didn't get as much of a boost to capabilities, but they were already head and shoulders above the other classes. The critical strike bug, was a... well a bug, and barbarians enjoyed built in double damage for over two years.

Compare the barbarian's damage capabilities to the other classes. Warblade in another thread said;

- Speaking of the Defiant, I was 'absolutely thrilled' to see that a Barbarian's Shout Warcry now starts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, making it a true fire and forget skill, added to Iron Skin, a Defiance merc and potentially the Concentrate skill for incredible levels of Defence. That's before mentioning another Warcry can easily tack 40% extra life on a Barbarian too. Meanwhile the Defiant gets Holy Shield, which takes on +15% Defence per level from Defiance applied to the entire Defence, yet it still starts at 30 seconds. End result? The 'master of defence' is a comparative embarrassment against the Barbarian, doesn't get hit much, but can't hit back much either, so this old build is still back on the scrapheap.

He has a point regarding barbarians improved life and defense skills. Better rares will really help all melee classes with rare now being able to spawn higher affixes and duel leech rings are back. The lack of global 50% PI in Hell, in effect doubles the damage capabilities of melee fighters, of course most monsters have more than double the hit points.

Frenzy seems to have been vastly improved (max Double Swing, max Berserk, max Frenzy for 345% dmg), and now it allows up to 20% magic damage (and there are very few magic immunes). So, from another previous thread, lets take an accessible unique like the upgraded "Headstriker" usable at lvl 58. As a one handed conquest sword, its base damage goes to 37-53 or with +150%ed 93-133, then +1 max dmg/lvl, 1.5%/lvl DS (+58 to start, + 87% DS (chance for 2x dmg)) so, about 172 avg/hit. So, to apply the formulas... I'm assuming at least minimum strength of 142, and a lvl 55 might merc, and a 4 frame frenzy attack, and chance to hit 100% (same level or less).

I think the formula would be something like;
DamagePerSecond = WeaponDamage * (1 + Strength / 100 + MightMercBonus / 100 + FrenzyBonus / 100 + CS+DS/100) * 25 / AttackFrames * ChanceToHit / 100

or

DPS = 172 avg * (1 + 142/100 + 190/100 + 345/100 + 87DS + 20CS/100) * 25/4 * 100/100
DPS = 172 avg * (7.84 or 5.94 wo/ merc) * 2.8 * 1
DPS = 3776/sec or 2860/sec wo/ might merc

I would also note that there are far better weapons than this one in the cheese drawer for all melee classes. Perhaps the Immortal Kings Thunder Maul (has anyone verified that the tempering formula works on set items?).

Unless I am mistaken, none of us has yet played a barbarian to hell difficulty. So, I doubt anyone here can truely say what is, or is not balanced. Yet...

[kandrathe]

...and only stops long enough to grab the loot.

Yeah, but thats hard to do when you are at least one screen away from the action.

I'm afraid the zon will suffer greatly from the speed and lethality of NM and Hell monsters. No more pierce bug, and she will need to fire at least 4x the number of arrows for the same effect. That takes 4x as much time, and exposes her to more danger. She has a merc and valkerie to tank for her, but that is dubious. Valkerie is still as dumb and slow as a post.

[IlleglWpns]

>>And only the concentrate barb barb maintains his high survivability.

Wrong. Have you forgotten that Barbs get 4 HPs per vit? That they have THREE defense boosting skills that can work in tandem? That they have a skill that can greatly increase HPs? That they have a passive that raises resistances?

>>The damage isnt even close to a paladins potential

A frenzier comes pretty close to a zealot, which is one of the fastest paladin builds in terms of raw damage/second. A berserker does less damage than an avenger, but he does magic damage and the mana cost of berserk is half of vengeance. And no matter how I look at it I don't see how a barb is going to do less than a werewolf (fury does ~400% extra damage when maxed, but has no synergies).

So the barb no longer is the best in terms of raw damage. BFD. He has tons of other advantages that are at least as important, esp with the harder hitting monsters in 1.10.

[Guest]

I think its on the next page but I figured ut relative damages. The Paladin is the damage machine - not the werewolf.

[Ignatz]

Hm, I dunno. Several lurkers have reported that she's a tough nut to crack now. As in, the toughest of the summons. Unless the AI tells the monsters to go for the caster, that's still a huge advantage.

And the piece bug is fixed on GA, but isn't Multishot just as effective? And FA? And LF? She would have to fire 4X the guided arrows, but that's not what mows down the crowds, anyway. I mean, I HOPE she suffers, and suffers a lot. The Zon is much more fun to play when she has to actually move. I'm just wary since I couldn't believe how ridiculously powerful she is in 1.09. She hits many, many, many more monsters at once (even with zero pierce), while her weapon damage isn't much lower than a melee fighter's. Not fair by any means.

[Occhidiangela]

Get a Mastery to 25 (for 50% critical hit)
A combt Skill to 25 or more
BO for added Mana and life
Strength bonuses since less life has to be built via stats

I looked at your numbers. The place for concern to me was more in To Hit than pure damage, but it was nice to see the numbers compare.

Now, add a Might merc . . . Barb does OK, and lives long enough to keep doing damage.

Possibly . . . balanced?

[Guest]

I dont just mean % gear either. At least in 1.09 Damage reduction by point was extremely effective if you focused on it.

And the main effect is to give all melee classes comprable survivability. A 2 hand paladin already easily matched a beserk barb in damage with equel weapons.

It looks right now like the plan is paladins do 3 times as much damage as barbs and barbs are 3 times as tough. Maybe this will be good, So far I havent been able to test any high lvls with good gear.

[IlleglWpns]

>>I think its on the next page but I figured ut relative damages. The Paladin is the damage machine - not the werewolf.

I am quite aware of the numbers. You compared the barbarian to the werewolf in your opening post, which is why I brought it up. How sad that the barbarian isn't #1 in everything (when it comes to melee). :blink:

[Swarmalicious]

Frenzy seems to have been vastly improved (max Double Swing, max Berserk, max Frenzy for 345% dmg), and now it allows up to 20% magic damage (and there are very few magic immunes).

The damage here does look impressive - but the downside seems to be that, with realistically only about 80 skill points to spend, the barbarian is will be left hanging in terms of his remaining skills. The burly barb everyone's used to loses a whole lot of his resilience without being able to max Battle Orders.

Its down to choosing between resilience or damage output. The days of the stand-alone barb really do seem to be over - I've been trying for days to get great damage out of a barb who has maxed Bo as a jump off point, and it just doesn't add up - at least in terms of maxing 'classic' things like BO & Mastery.

On a related note - does the Concentrate animation have to be so lame? Its a solid way to go, but its yawn inducing.

[TaiDaishar]

Paladins may have more damage POTENTIAL but you still seem to ignore the Paladin is the worst melee surviver, amazon got the passives+valk, assassin got 3 charged pheonix, shadow warrior/master, Blade shield is also a nice way to defend if you get some cold elemental items, freezes target, knockback etc'.

So overall, paladins may have the best damage potential but if they can't even stay alive in act 1 hell it doesn't matter how much damage they do (not to mention they'll need to invest more in vit while the barb can pump strength more and is much more viable with the big damage 2 handed weapons)

[kandrathe]

Hm, I dunno. Several lurkers have reported that she's a tough nut to crack now.

Oh, I concur with the assessment that the valkerie is tough, but still her AI is inane compared to other NPC's. It hardly ever actually hits the monster, and then doesn't do much damage. Her only redeeming quality is that once you finally get her tanking the right monster, she doesn't die too quickly. But, valkeries are almost entirely useless against extra fast monsters (like; Stygian dolls, cold crows, Maffer Dragonhand, Ismail Vilehand, Battlemaid Sarina, Frenzytaurs... >shudder<) unless you happen to get lucky and she just happens to be standing in the way when they rush you.

And the piece bug is fixed on GA, but isn't Multishot just as effective?

GA did so much more damage with less mana, and with pierce giving you 3-4x dmg and that was unfair. MS or Strafe, can miss, and are much more mana intensive, so leeching is very important. Losing the many PI in Hell will be a benefit, and now then also dual leech rare rings of coarse. As Occhi, or was it Pete, said in a different thread, you cannot expect to make the ranged attacker on par with the melee fighter. But, what made the zon most unfair was the free availability of high damage, fast weapons. Take away the massively duped Eaglehorn, and Windforces, and what you are left with is Burrito's, Goldstrikes, Lycanders, or possibly Cruel Matriarchal bows. If they fixed the Burriza, then the playing field would be almost level.

[Kevin]

Hmm, I need to find WarBlade's original quote.

My new barb I was playing with got 20 seconds of shout at L1. I'd like to know where the 1 minute 30 seconds came from.

Shout is still a very intensive skill until you get 10+ points in it since anything that lasts less that 60 seconds needs a lot of refreshing in my opinion.

Ah well.

[Guest]

When you go max battle orders that in turn adds to shout time. It is nice. Shout used wear out so fast that it just became annoying to even use it.

[Guest]

-mastery at 25 doesnt gove 50% crit, it gives 22%

-I think its assummed all most 4melee builds will have skills at 25

-Frenzy builds dont leave much room for BO, assumming you build for paladin lvl damage.

-Str damage isnt multiplied by skills or is it? If its not(as I rememeber it) then spending extra points on str is very ineffiecient relative to spending them on vitality, since vitality is multiplied by skills.



Im not really saying the new system wont work(a Fant paladin + a BO should barb will be nice), Im just wondering. I need to get some good items imported to characters I guess so I can test them.

[kandrathe]

...with realistically only about 80 skill points to spend, the barbarian is will be left hanging in terms of his remaining skills. The burly barb everyone's used to loses a whole lot of his resilience without being able to max Battle Orders.

These are just examples, and I wasn't even factoring in +skills from items, the new elite weapons, better rare affixs, or a 3 socketed CCB. So, maybe you might need to settle for less points in DS, Berserk, Frenzy, and get more + skills from items.

So lets scale it down as far as skill points, 10 pts in Frenzy, 15 Pts in Berserk (optional for % Magic damage), 10 Pts in DS, 20 pts in mastery (55pts used here) + 10 skills from items.

20 pts Frenzy = 185% dmg + (10 * 8%) DS synergy = +265% dmg

DPS = 172 avg * (1 + 142/100 + 190/100 + 265/100 + 87DS + 20CS/100) * 25/4 * 100/100
DPS = 172 avg * (8.04) * 2.8 * 1 = 3872 dmg/sec (with 15% (581) being magic dmg)

(versus 3776 dmg/sec when I was not factoring in + skills)

This is a one handed weapon giving you a good shield and resistances, but you can slice it and dice it different ways giving more points for SS, NR, BO if you like. Substitute higher strength, the IK maul (277 avg dmg) and boots (+250-361 (300 avg) magic dmg) if you like.

DPS = 277 avg * (1 + 225/100 + 190/100 + 265/100 + 20CS/100) * 25/4 * 100/100
DPS = 277 avg * (8.0) * 2.8 * 1 = 6205 dmg/sec (with 15% (931) + 300 being magic dmg)

I like the idea that there is no *perfect* build. You now need to chose -- sacrifice protection for damage, or damage for protection... same boat as the Paladin, only less so IMHO.

[Occhidiangela]

-mastery at 25 doesnt gove 50% crit, it gives 22%

Yep, after I posted that, I went to Chippydips and slapped my forehead in dismay. I wonder if that will change any after the patch. I doubt it.

-I think its assummed all most 4melee builds will have skills at 25

I think that is a solid assumption.

-Frenzy builds dont leave much room for BO, assumming you build for paladin lvl damage.

With 4 pts per vitality point and BO bonuses for life and Mana, you put strength points where a paladin would have to allocate vitality. For an extra 20-30% more damage? It won't put the Barbarian over the top. I get your point on Frenzy, and having to make choices due to synergy set ups. (I'd still probably put quite a bit in BO in HC.)

-Str damage isnt multiplied by skills or is it? If its not(as I rememeber it) then spending extra points on str is very ineffiecient relative to spending them on vitality, since vitality is multiplied by skills.

Last I checked, it works this way: (Str/100 + skills bonus/100)*Wpn damage.

Im not really saying the new system wont work(a Fant paladin + a BO should barb will be nice), Im just wondering. I need to get some good items imported to characters I guess so I can test them.

Yes, for sure, the more stuff you can play with, the better.

PMH sounds like a key Hell Diff affix, in any case. :)