04-01-2008, 02:16 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2008, 04:12 PM by Concillian.)
Paladins:
1) Some priests / druids may get more regen from Kings than Imp. BoW... Whether this is true depends on their buffed Int & Spi.
Pretty much all of them probably should prefer Kings because Stamina is going to generally be more useful than a small amount of mana regen considering how much was gained by decently geared priests / druids in 2.4. Yes, this statement is absolutely opinion. I like stam in raids, on everyone.
Most raids this isn't an issue, with enough pallies for Wisdom + Kings + Salv on healers, but in the event that you are choosing between Kings and Wisdom on a priest or druid, I'd generally consider Kings better even if they are not at the point where regen will be the same as with Wisdom.
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Shaman and Paladin healers:
You should feel justified in asking for innervates. If Priests and Druids need their innervates anywhere before Sunwell, either the healing assignments aren't right or they aren't geared properly for the content. (or it's a CoH gimmick fight and the priests are supposed to be spamming CoH all fight and you are supposed to give Innervates to Priests).
looking at the value of Innervate on a class like this...
Consider a raiding paladin (base spirit 83) will have Divine Spirit as well (+50 spirit) and Blessing of Kings (146 spirit).
Now consider small changes to gearing in anticipation for getting an innervate:
- Weapon swap with + SPI enchant. This is a staple priest swap since Molten Core. Now Priests will almost never get innervates, and when they do, they need an INT weapon swap to get more out of an innervate because it's almost certain to completely fill their mana pool, so SPI adds nothing for them on an innervate :wacko:
- Bangle of Endless Blessings a decent regen trinket by itself, the proc is incredibly useful for use with innervate.
Base MP5 also plays a role. I am going to assume a raid buffed flat MP5 value of 200 MP5, which is probably slightly low, it doesn't affect the overall conclusion really.
The following table shows innervate mana amounts with base spirit levels (base raid buffed, so I am assuming +50 from Divine Spirit and Blessing of Kings, humans will see slightly more than this due to 'The Human Spirit' racial.) and what happens with additional spirit on a weapon swap (+75, which is Nightstaff of the Everliving and a +20 spirit enchant) and/or use of the Bangle to coincide with innervate.
Conclusions:
1) spirit needed to fill your mana bar completely increases with intellect.
2) The mana gained during innervate is linear with additional spirit until you have enough to max out your mana.
3) A weapon swap, which should have little impact on gear, can yield decent amounts of mana (slightly less than an extra potion worth)
4) Bangle of Endless Blessings + spirit weapon swap will generally give 100% mana or very close to it if used to coincide with an innervate.
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Raid Leaders:
You should probably work with your healing druids, shaman and paladins to help understand how these mechanics change the usage of innervate. Your priests shouldn't be running out of mana if they are geared for spirit, except for the occasional CoH spam fight, which they can get innervates for anyway since everyone knows these fights are CoH spam fights (Gurtogg anyone?).
But your Druids need to be aware that an innervate on a shaman or Paladin is a pretty significant amount of mana. Even without a weapon swap it's 7k mana for a pally with no spirit (Shaman should be right in the same ballpark).
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Healers in general
Mana conservation is much less a concern. Priests and Druids got huge buffs to MP5. Even though Pallies and Shaman aren't seeing much difference in their current MP5 values (maybe even a slight decrease?), they are now ideal targets for Innervate, which should mean that at least a couple of them have more mana available.
As a priest, I am adapting to having more mana available. I am making less use of Greater Heal Rank 1 (my mana conservation heal for raid healing) and using more Flash Heal Rank 7 (heals for about the same amount as GHeal Rank 1 for more mana, but in 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds). I am trying to use the mana I have so that the raid in general has more "verticality" and less lying dead on the floor. It's a change I'm still getting used to.
What this means for me also is that I'm expecting my % overhealing to increase. I am essentially bumping up my insurance coverage to the next level, or buying larger premiums, whatever analogy you want to use. I see %overheal as a less useful stat for healer evaluation as we enter the realm of virtually unlimited healer mana.
---------------------
Low Intellect & Spirit DPS classes with mana (Enh. Shaman, Ret Pally, maybe some Hunters):
These classes see some decrease in MP5 compared to previous patch. In combat MP5 is obviously unaffected, but out of combat MP5 is decreased compared to 2.3x when soloing. However, each of these classes also sees an increase after receiving simple raid buffs, compared with previous patch and these same raid buffs (Divine Spirit + Mark of the Wild + Arcane Intellect is generally enough to make them have positive MP5 delta compared with last patch.)
---------------------
Feel free to add insight to what the 2.4 mana regeneration model changes. Please keep discussion in this thread general and not specific to classes that have talents that make Spirit especially useful (Meditation / Intensity / Arcane Meditation, for example)
1) Some priests / druids may get more regen from Kings than Imp. BoW... Whether this is true depends on their buffed Int & Spi.
Pretty much all of them probably should prefer Kings because Stamina is going to generally be more useful than a small amount of mana regen considering how much was gained by decently geared priests / druids in 2.4. Yes, this statement is absolutely opinion. I like stam in raids, on everyone.
Most raids this isn't an issue, with enough pallies for Wisdom + Kings + Salv on healers, but in the event that you are choosing between Kings and Wisdom on a priest or druid, I'd generally consider Kings better even if they are not at the point where regen will be the same as with Wisdom.
-----------------
Shaman and Paladin healers:
You should feel justified in asking for innervates. If Priests and Druids need their innervates anywhere before Sunwell, either the healing assignments aren't right or they aren't geared properly for the content. (or it's a CoH gimmick fight and the priests are supposed to be spamming CoH all fight and you are supposed to give Innervates to Priests).
looking at the value of Innervate on a class like this...
Consider a raiding paladin (base spirit 83) will have Divine Spirit as well (+50 spirit) and Blessing of Kings (146 spirit).
Now consider small changes to gearing in anticipation for getting an innervate:
- Weapon swap with + SPI enchant. This is a staple priest swap since Molten Core. Now Priests will almost never get innervates, and when they do, they need an INT weapon swap to get more out of an innervate because it's almost certain to completely fill their mana pool, so SPI adds nothing for them on an innervate :wacko:
- Bangle of Endless Blessings a decent regen trinket by itself, the proc is incredibly useful for use with innervate.
Base MP5 also plays a role. I am going to assume a raid buffed flat MP5 value of 200 MP5, which is probably slightly low, it doesn't affect the overall conclusion really.
The following table shows innervate mana amounts with base spirit levels (base raid buffed, so I am assuming +50 from Divine Spirit and Blessing of Kings, humans will see slightly more than this due to 'The Human Spirit' racial.) and what happens with additional spirit on a weapon swap (+75, which is Nightstaff of the Everliving and a +20 spirit enchant) and/or use of the Bangle to coincide with innervate.
Code:
Base 75 on staff bangle bangle+staff
INT Mana 146 SPI 221 SPI 276 SPI 351 SPI
500 10173 7045 8609 9756 11320
600 11673 7336 9049 10306 12019
700 13173 7603 9454 10811 12662
800 14673 7852 9830 11281 13260
^^^^ Mana for a full innervate ^^^^
1564 2711 3128*
1713 2970 4337*
1851 3208 5059
1979 3429 5408
^^^^ Mana gained from SPI swap ^^^^
* = hit 100% mana so artificially low, that is the number indicates never exceeding max mana and assumes an innervate from zero mana
Edit: I screwed up the base spirit, it should have another ~20 SPI for Mark of the Wild, I'll fix it later.
It doesn't actually affect the delta mana, only the base gets a little extra regen.Conclusions:
1) spirit needed to fill your mana bar completely increases with intellect.
2) The mana gained during innervate is linear with additional spirit until you have enough to max out your mana.
3) A weapon swap, which should have little impact on gear, can yield decent amounts of mana (slightly less than an extra potion worth)
4) Bangle of Endless Blessings + spirit weapon swap will generally give 100% mana or very close to it if used to coincide with an innervate.
-------------------
Raid Leaders:
You should probably work with your healing druids, shaman and paladins to help understand how these mechanics change the usage of innervate. Your priests shouldn't be running out of mana if they are geared for spirit, except for the occasional CoH spam fight, which they can get innervates for anyway since everyone knows these fights are CoH spam fights (Gurtogg anyone?).
But your Druids need to be aware that an innervate on a shaman or Paladin is a pretty significant amount of mana. Even without a weapon swap it's 7k mana for a pally with no spirit (Shaman should be right in the same ballpark).
---------------------
Healers in general
Mana conservation is much less a concern. Priests and Druids got huge buffs to MP5. Even though Pallies and Shaman aren't seeing much difference in their current MP5 values (maybe even a slight decrease?), they are now ideal targets for Innervate, which should mean that at least a couple of them have more mana available.
As a priest, I am adapting to having more mana available. I am making less use of Greater Heal Rank 1 (my mana conservation heal for raid healing) and using more Flash Heal Rank 7 (heals for about the same amount as GHeal Rank 1 for more mana, but in 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds). I am trying to use the mana I have so that the raid in general has more "verticality" and less lying dead on the floor. It's a change I'm still getting used to.
What this means for me also is that I'm expecting my % overhealing to increase. I am essentially bumping up my insurance coverage to the next level, or buying larger premiums, whatever analogy you want to use. I see %overheal as a less useful stat for healer evaluation as we enter the realm of virtually unlimited healer mana.
---------------------
Low Intellect & Spirit DPS classes with mana (Enh. Shaman, Ret Pally, maybe some Hunters):
These classes see some decrease in MP5 compared to previous patch. In combat MP5 is obviously unaffected, but out of combat MP5 is decreased compared to 2.3x when soloing. However, each of these classes also sees an increase after receiving simple raid buffs, compared with previous patch and these same raid buffs (Divine Spirit + Mark of the Wild + Arcane Intellect is generally enough to make them have positive MP5 delta compared with last patch.)
---------------------
Feel free to add insight to what the 2.4 mana regeneration model changes. Please keep discussion in this thread general and not specific to classes that have talents that make Spirit especially useful (Meditation / Intensity / Arcane Meditation, for example)
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
