BM Hunter talent question

[LavCat]

My Beast Master hunter is currently a 51/11/7 PvE build, with two talent points unassigned:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

Her raid/instance pet is Broken Tooth. One goal with this build is to get pet crit rate up high enough that 3/5 (60% chance after a crit) Frenzy will be enough to keep the pet attack speed buff up most of the time. To this end the original plan was to use the last two points to max Cobra Strikes.

Maxing Cobra Strikes is still most likely, but I wondered if anyone had other suggestions where to place the last two talent points? Possibilities include a second point in Go for the Throat or a point or two in Invigoration. I read EJ so please don't just send me there. Maybe we can get a discussion going.

[Lissa]

From what I've seen, the two main builds for BMs are:

50/21/0 for non-exotic pets as you really don't need the extra 4 talent points (they're nice, but not necessary in most cases)

and

51/20/0 for the exotic pets.

From what has been seen, if you are running a non-exotic pet, readiness does a lot for you DPSwise.

[Mirajj]

Well, in the 50/21/0 build, Readiness was used for BW. As soon as 3.0.8 hits, that won't be in effect anymore. Though, readiness is still pretty nice with Rapid Fire.

Looking over your spec, if you wanted my opinion on where to drop 2 points, as you said you were mainly going for a pve build (I don't know if you intend to raid or not) I'd look at dropping the two points into Invigoration.

That also depends on what size of raid group and what kind you raid with, too. If you can reliably count on getting a replentishment rebuff, perhaps the 2 points would be better off spent in Cobra Strikes for the enhanced crit you desired.

However, I'd also like to point you to Improved Revive Pet. It's mostly a raiding thing, but dropping 2 points into it can be VERY handy as I have found a lot of fights in the LK raiding scene to be pretty pet unfriendly. Losing your pet early in a fight will really hurt your overall dps, and Imp MP can go a long, long ways to helping you get that pet back up and running with hardly any downtime.

Some things to think about, at any rate.

[Kirayla]

One possible thing to keep in mind, which i am still testing out . . . . is that Focused Aim does not keep you pet hit capped, so even if you are running with it, you as a hunter may be hit capped, but it is likely your BM pet will not be. I have been testing this out, too see if it is worthwhile to run with a spec of:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMztxRwuMest0eVoM

I then need to run with all the hit gear to make up for the loss of the talent, but it also does give Inga better dps (my Dino).

So far i have found that this spec, Inga only had dodges and parries, of 2.7% and 0.4% respectively. This was in a 25 man Arcavon run where she was doing 1400dps herself, and i was doing 2200dps, for a total of 3600dps . . . and well my gear it not all that amazing (mostly Heroics, BOE).

Just a thought.

-Kira

[LavCat]

One possible thing to keep in mind, which i am still testing out . . . . is that Focused Aim does not keep you pet hit capped, so even if you are running with it, you as a hunter may be hit capped, but it is likely your BM pet will not be. I have been testing this out, too see if it is worthwhile to run with a spec of:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMztxRwuMest0eVoM

I then need to run with all the hit gear to make up for the loss of the talent, but it also does give Inga better dps (my Dino).

So far i have found that this spec, Inga only had dodges and parries, of 2.7% and 0.4% respectively. This was in a 25 man Arcavon run where she was doing 1400dps herself, and i was doing 2200dps, for a total of 3600dps . . . and well my gear it not all that amazing (mostly Heroics, BOE).

Just a thought.

-Kira

Nope, never used Focused Aim, and at the moment am +8.42% hit, which I realize is a bit much. I plan to re-gem and look for gear with more AP/crit and less +Hit. Also I confess none of my current gear is enchanted.

I ran heroic Nexus last night with one of our guild's top hunters in Naxx gear. My kitty had significantly more hits and crits, in about the same ratio, as his kitty. His cat missed twice, mine never missed at all. But his cat hit and crit for way more damage than mine. His AP is 1000 more than what I have. I don't know if that accounts for all the difference in our pets. I asked this hunter about my two talent points. He felt that 2/3 Cobra Strikes was enough.

He of course out damaged me, but I was ashamed by how much! His crit% was about 5 more than mine. Interestingly over a quarter of his total damage came from volley, and I used volley hardly at all.

[LavCat]

Well, in the 50/21/0 build, Readiness was used for BW. As soon as 3.0.8 hits, that won't be in effect anymore. Though, readiness is still pretty nice with Rapid Fire.

Looking over your spec, if you wanted my opinion on where to drop 2 points, as you said you were mainly going for a pve build (I don't know if you intend to raid or not) I'd look at dropping the two points into Invigoration.

That also depends on what size of raid group and what kind you raid with, too. If you can reliably count on getting a replentishment rebuff, perhaps the 2 points would be better off spent in Cobra Strikes for the enhanced crit you desired.

However, I'd also like to point you to Improved Revive Pet. It's mostly a raiding thing, but dropping 2 points into it can be VERY handy as I have found a lot of fights in the LK raiding scene to be pretty pet unfriendly. Losing your pet early in a fight will really hurt your overall dps, and Imp MP can go a long, long ways to helping you get that pet back up and running with hardly any downtime.

Some things to think about, at any rate.

Raiding is sort of a sore subject at the moment, as the guild wants me to get my paladin leveled for raiding. They have no interest in my hunter. Woad missed almost all of BC and I felt it was her turn to play. I never leveled her to 70 till a few days before WotLK came out. But we have done a few 10 person raids and would like to be doing more. If you are ever short a DPS for a group, please ask! There is not much more for her to do outside of raids. If she does not get a chance to raid it will probably be back to PvP.

Her kitty has Heart of the Phoenix and I am thinking that makes Improved Revived Pet less necessary. Woad has one point in Improved Mend Pet now.

I could put one of the two points into Invigoration and the other into Cobra Strikes. Do you think 2/3 Cobra Strikes will be enough? With 1/3 Cobra Strikes her kitty's Rake crit was 30% and Claw crit was 37.6%, measured over one run of heroic Nexus. The melee crit was only 24.3%, from which I infer Cobra Strikes is doing something.

Do you know if there is any way to actually measure if a pet is focus starved? Maybe from the ratio of melee attacks to specials? I'm thinking one point in Go for the Throat is sufficient, but that is no more than a guess at the moment.

In any event I think one of the two unused talent points should go in Cobra Strikes. I'll try to see what difference that makes in the melee crit/special crit ratio. Would anyone advise against at least 2/3 Cobra Strikes?

[Mirajj]

Her kitty has Heart of the Phoenix and I am thinking that makes Improved Revived Pet less necessary. Woad has one point in Improved Mend Pet now.

It's late, so I'll just touch on this point for now. I don't think that HotP is worth putting a pet talent point into. It doesn't trigger automatically (even if you have it on autocast), has a 10 minute cooldown, and it has to be on your pet's active bar to activate. I'd rather have a 4ish second, really cheap Revive Pet over HotP. Especially because there are already so many problems with what is and isn't required to be on the pet's hotbar over what does and doesn't "magically" activate itself when logging on or zoning in/out of instances.

I have, for instance, on my bar, Prowl, Cower, Rake and Growl, just to ensure that the first two are always off, the third always on, and the fourth on/off as needed. I could probably take Prowl off and put something else on, as it's really obvious when prowl activates/autocasts, but still...

[LavCat]

It's late, so I'll just touch on this point for now. I don't think that HotP is worth putting a pet talent point into. It doesn't trigger automatically (even if you have it on autocast), has a 10 minute cooldown, and it has to be on your pet's active bar to activate. I'd rather have a 4ish second, really cheap Revive Pet over HotP. Especially because there are already so many problems with what is and isn't required to be on the pet's hotbar over what does and doesn't "magically" activate itself when logging on or zoning in/out of instances.

I have, for instance, on my bar, Prowl, Cower, Rake and Growl, just to ensure that the first two are always off, the third always on, and the fourth on/off as needed. I could probably take Prowl off and put something else on, as it's really obvious when prowl activates/autocasts, but still...

Why wouldn't you want Cower turned on for a raid? It costs no focus. I have Prowl, Cower, HoP, and Growl on my action bar.

I find the only problem with HoP is that you have to remember not to use it after a wipe if your pet died underneith the boss. Your groupmates will not love you. I found HoP very frustrating at first till I learned how to use it.

I went through the data from the same nexus run I mentioned earlier. I calculated that one point in Invigoration would have returned 8k mana for the entire instance. That's well less than a full mana bar. To me that does not seem worth it, unless I'm missing something. Maybe a ten minute boss fight might be different.

[Taelas]

I imagine that Cower is on the GCD? If that's correct, that is probably why -- in that case, casting it delays DPS abilities. You could cast it while your pet doesn't have the opportunity to cast other abilities, but I honestly doubt auto-cast is that considerate.

[LavCat]

I imagine that Cower is on the GCD? If that's correct, that is probably why -- in that case, casting it delays DPS abilities. You could cast it while your pet doesn't have the opportunity to cast other abilities, but I honestly doubt auto-cast is that considerate.

Yes, Cower does use a GCD, and from what I've read will still use a GCD next patch (I think pet abilities over 30 seconds are going off the GCD though).

I am still trying to find a good way to measure if a pet is focus starved. In the event a pet were focus starved, I would think using a GCD for Cower would not be an issue. In any event I am now rethinking use of Cower in instances because of the GCD. It sort of depends upon the tank. I've been called a jerk (and presumably not an elitist one) when my cat takes aggro. With other tanks there's been no aggro problem.

After next patch my spirit beast may well out DPS my cat. Since Spirit Strike can't crit (unless they fix it), I wonder how that affects the use of Cobra Strikes? If Spirit Strike is cast does it waste a charge of Cobra Strikes?

And I'm still looking for a way to measure the up time of Frenzy. Anyone have thoughts?

[Mirajj]

I am still trying to find a good way to measure if a pet is focus starved. In the event a pet were focus starved, I would think using a GCD for Cower would not be an issue. In any event I am now rethinking use of Cower in instances because of the GCD. It sort of depends upon the tank. I've been called a jerk (and presumably not an elitist one) when my cat takes aggro. With other tanks there's been no aggro problem.

This is why I don't use Cower. I don't want to bother with using a GCD on it. I also figure that if my cat/pet can out-threat a tank, it's a problem with the tank, and not my pet. And yes, that's in 5 mans up to 25's. Without my pet using Growl, of course.

[Mordekhuul]

This is why I don't use Cower. I don't want to bother with using a GCD on it. I also figure that if my cat/pet can out-threat a tank, it's a problem with the tank, and not my pet. And yes, that's in 5 mans up to 25's. Without my pet using Growl, of course.

If anyone at all can out-threat a tank, these days, I figure there's a problem =)

[Mavfin]

If anyone at all can out-threat a tank, these days, I figure there's a problem =)

Assuming they're not starting too early, and stealing them off the tank before he gets started, yeah, or DPSing the 1 mob of 4 that only has tclap/consecrate on it. DPS smart enough to know when to cut loose and when to be patient and let the tank get the mobs in a pile don't have threat problems with anything.:D Obviously, the time required varies with tank type. Pally is probably fastest, druid is slowest, but they can all do it, if the DPS is smart about it.

[Lissa]

If anyone at all can out-threat a tank, these days, I figure there's a problem =)

*cough*4incineratecritsinarowwithaconflgcritthrowningforgoodmeasure*cough*

[Mordekhuul]

I actually had to use Hand of Salvation on our DPS for the first time last night, working on Malygos25. Get 2-3 stacks of the buff on retribution paladins, shadowpriests and such, with a tank that is still worrying about getting comfortable kiting the boss when sparks are called, and there can be some issues =)

Now to get as comfortable with phase 3 as we are with phase 1 and 2. I assume other guilds are running into the same issues in phase 3 where folks, even ones with no mods, are having their pet bars not show up or their shield button just never shields them even with combo points built up and 25 energy in reserve and not having switched targets at all... Fun as hell to have a fight we have to spend a little time on finally though.

[Taelas]

Assuming they're not starting too early, and stealing them off the tank before he gets started, yeah, or DPSing the 1 mob of 4 that only has tclap/consecrate on it. DPS smart enough to know when to cut loose and when to be patient and let the tank get the mobs in a pile don't have threat problems with anything.:D Obviously, the time required varies with tank type. Pally is probably fastest, druid is slowest, but they can all do it, if the DPS is smart about it.

I know that personally, my warrior is a threat monster. I can usually pull off a DPS who's had a few seconds to cut loose with a Shield Slam. Especially if it crits.

Threat is still a concern, as secondary aggro is non-trivial (even spamming Thunderclap and Shockwave every CD, I can't hold off on other targets than my main when DPS cuts loose), but it is much, much, muuuch less of a concern now. It's a relief, to be honest. (Now I just concentrate on putting out as much damage as I can while tanking. Finishing as second on the meter while tanking the instance is sweet.)

[LavCat]

This is why I don't use Cower. I don't want to bother with using a GCD on it. I also figure that if my cat/pet can out-threat a tank, it's a problem with the tank, and not my pet. And yes, that's in 5 mans up to 25's. Without my pet using Growl, of course.

Last night I got into my first 25-person WotLK raid, Obsidian Sanctum. It was a PUG, but we had four people from our guild, including the warrior main tank. I ran with both Cower and Growl off. The run did not start off well for me: I was trying a new idea for my Steady Shot macro from something I saw mentioned on EJ. It worked pretty well except Steady Shot almost never seemed to proc. I should have known better. By about the middle of the raid everyone else was fighting and I was editing my macro. Nothing was wrong with the coding, the idea just didn't work.

On Sartharion my cat died early. I was too far away and lost the pet bar. (Memo: macro Heart of the Phoenix.) I stood there just plunking away, but finally towards the end of the fight, lamely ressed my pet.

Shadron went better. I had a working macro by that time and the kitty stayed alive. In fact the kitty out damaged the warrior. I hope the kitty did not pull aggro, although I did see parries in the log.

But I am convinced of the idea of raiding without Cower. And I got the Valorous gloves for my effort. Over all for the raid I was the top hunter out of three. On the Sartharion fight I was beaten only by a warlock, with a margin of about 100 damage out of a 167K for each of us.

I still don't know where to put the last talent point.

[LavCat]

Back to the idea of measuring focus starvation: since 3.0.8 my hunter has been using her spirit beast instead of Broken Tooth. Spirit Strike has a cooldown of 10 seconds. Claw is instant but is on the global cooldown of 1.5 seconds. The focus cost for Claw is more (25) than for Spirit Strike (20), so assuming limited focus, Spirit Strike should proc before Claw if both cooldowns were up.

Given enough focus, the spirit beast should be able to cast Claw six times between casts of Spirit Strike. Looking at some measured Recount data, I see 317 Claws (with 40.9% crit) and 91 Spirit Strikes. From this I infer the pet is lacking enough focus to cast Claw as often as it is up, otherwise I would have expected 91x6 or 546 casts of Claw.

Is there any flaw in my logic? I am tempted to put the last talent point into 2/2 Go for the Throat to see if we get closer to the 6/1 ratio. Unfortunately with more Claw attacks I would expect to see a lower ratio of Claw crits, since a lot of that 40.9% Claw crit is coming from procs of Cobra Strikes.

However maybe an even better place to put that last talent point would be in 3/5 Mortal Shots. Then if I could find some way to boost my crit, not only would the spirit kitty have more focus, Woad would be doing more crit damage. I see no easy way to boost crit percentage though. Maybe we should all go spec Survival.


Edit: Duh. Disregard the above. Woad has 3/3 Longevity, so the SS cooldown is 7 seconds, not 10. Thus there should be only 4 Claws between Spirit Strikes. For 91 Spirit Strikes there should be 364 Claws. This compares much better to the 317 Claws actually recorded.

Putting that last point in 3/5 Mortal Shots is looking even better.