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Drake charge - Zenda - 01-11-2004
Hello,
Those familiar with Jarulf's Guide might know that the Drake's charge does only very little damage, has 500% tohit, and causes no knockback like the Horned Demon's charge does. The low damage is the result of Drakes having listed 0 as base damage for secondary attacks. In an attempt to correct this, I gave Drakes a substantial base damage for secondary attacks. This didn't work. Strangely enough, close observation showed that Drakes actually never hit with their charge!
Looking at the code, it is shown that the Drakes charge is almost identical to the one for Horned Demons. They just start closer, and skip the knockback part. They should do a normal melee attack as part of the charge. Letting the Drakes start from larger distances had no results: the charge still never caused a hit. Giving the Horned Demon attack type to a Drake did correct the problem: now it had a regular charge, with hit and knockback. But this, ofcourse, made them loose their own characteristic walking pattern.
The same occurs with any bosses that have the Drake attacktype, btw.
Since I wanted to have Drakes a real charge attack, some more experiments were done with the code. Unfortunately this never produced the desired results, and usually a crash. It is as if Drakes do not find their target on the spot, and thus skip the melee part, while Horned Demons do.
So I ask again: has anyone ever witnessed this in regular Diablo or Hellfire? It should be pretty obvious for high AC characters, as those should seldom be hit by normal attacks, but very frequently by the Drake's charge (because of the 500% tohit).
Drake charge - Cytrex - 01-11-2004
Somewhy I always thought the charge wasn't even an attack and that the actual attack follows it. Not sure where I got that, I guess I was misinformed.
I don't think I've ever noticed Drakes secondary hits being more common or anything. I'm probably mixing up some things here, but if the damage for secondary attack is 0, I wouldn't notice even if it hit me.
EDIT: just inserted something stupid here :) I'm glad I noticed it on time and deleted it.
Drake charge - Jarulf - 01-11-2004
Despite not hitting as you say, doesn't they interupt any aaction of the target? Also look in the code that check for frame to hit, there is special code for drakes there if I recall correctly.
Drake charge - Daemon - 01-11-2004
I also have noticed that "bug" with the Drake's charging attacks. With a lot of LAW playing in H/H, it was my tactic vs drakes to let them come close to me, charge, and they never caused me to block, leaving an open opportunity for me to attack them.
As for code reading and such, I'm not your man! :huh:
Drake charge - Zenda - 01-12-2004
Hello,
"Somewhy I always thought the charge wasn't even an attack and that the actual attack follows it. Not sure where I got that, I guess I was misinformed."
Looks like you weren't so misinformed, after all. According to my findings, Drakes charge more like Glooms as like Horned Demons.
"but if the damage for secondary attack is 0, I wouldn't notice even if it hit me."
Your character would still try to block, and the attack would still interrupt casting and such.
"Despite not hitting as you say, doesn't they interupt any aaction of the target? Also look in the code that check for frame to hit, there is special code for drakes there if I recall correctly."
As far as I can see, the charge itself does not interrupt any action. However, the following melee attack (which always comes without delay, as stated in the Bible) comes fast and can interrupt actions, which makes it hard to see.
I will look in the code for the attack frame, but I doubt this is the problem here. What I can see is that both Drakes and Horned Demons do not perform attack animations upon impact, but merely call the MvP attack routine when the charge spell effect ends. Interesting to note is that the code that handles the impact, at some point calls the hit-creature routine on the charging monster, to have it make the impact sound (in other words, it says 'ouch'). Drakes have this sound. Experiments with disabling this call showed that both Drakes and Horned Demons use this piece of code (but that was clear already). The odd thing is, that very shortly after that call, right after the check for Glooms, the general MvP routine is executed, and Drakes now seem to skip that part too. If anyone wants, I can provide the full code for all this.
"charge, and they never caused me to block"
Thank you, that is exactly what I expected.
Drake charge - Thecla - 01-15-2004
This may be a completely different thing, but is any of this connected with the long 'sliding' charges that drakes sometimes execute e.g. when you teleport away?
Drake charge - Zenda - 01-15-2004
Hello Thecla,
Yes, this sliding you refer to is another matter. Charging monsters actually do a spell effect, which shoots them towards their target's position. When the target gets out of the way, the 'projectile' has no choice but to continue its path until it hits something else. This mechanism, and specific spell effect even, is exactly the same for drakes as for horned demons. The only reason why it is harder to avoid a charging drake, is that the distance is so short.
Drake charge - Cytrex - 01-16-2004
Stupid drakes :rolleyes: "My enemy is that way, I think I'll just close my eyes and head this direction really fast until I hit something! There would be no point in just making one quick move to get at him."
Don't I just love comparing this game to real life behaviour examples B)
Drake charge - Zenda - 01-18-2004
Hello Cytrex,
"Don't I just love comparing this game to real life behaviour examples "
Not surprisingly. Imo one of the stronger points of this game is that monsters all have their own characteristic and realistic behaviour. Other games, including D2, seldom offer more as retreating shooters and advancing meleers.
Drake charge - Thecla - 01-19-2004
Zenda,Jan 18 2004, 03:58 PM Wrote:Not surprisingly. Imo one of the stronger points of this game is that monsters all have their own characteristic and realistic behaviour. Other games, including D2, seldom offer more as retreating shooters and advancing meleers.Yup, I really agree with you -- when I think of the different tactics involved in dealing with winged demons and spitters and goat lords and horned demons and lightning demons and succubi and knights and balrogs and advocates and so on and son on .. I still get misty eyed. ;)
Drake charge - Draconis - 01-19-2004
Quote:Thecla Posted on Jan 19 2004, 08:15 PM
QUOTE (Zenda @ Jan 18 2004, 03:58 PM)
Not surprisingly. Imo one of the stronger points of this game is that monsters all have their own characteristic and realistic behaviour. Other games, including D2, seldom offer more as retreating shooters and advancing meleers.
Yup, I really agree with you -- when I think of the different tactics involved in dealing with winged demons and spitters and goat lords and horned demons and lightning demons and succubi and knights and balrogs and advocates and so on and son on .. I still get misty eyed.
But it never really leaves your mind once you play enough. Just had my first hell game in a few months in D1, and was mostly okay. Died once to a fair few advcoates...but warriors just rock the party ;)
Drake charge - Jarulf - 01-19-2004
Thecla,Jan 19 2004, 09:15 AM Wrote:Yup, I really agree with you -- when I think of the different tactics involved in dealing with winged demons and spitters and goat lords and horned demons and lightning demons and succubi and knights and balrogs and advocates and so on and son on .. I still get misty eyed. ;)That is actually one of the things I feel they failed with in D2. The distinct differences (and tactics needed) of different monster types. In D2 it is pretyy much all "you get swarmed" and then the "spell caster from a afar, typically raising minions" or something like that. No real variation. If that is the reason for the faster "pace" or if it is the other way arround I don't know. But it was much better in D1.
Drake charge - Thecla - 01-19-2004
Jarulf,Jan 19 2004, 01:13 PM Wrote:That is actually one of the things I feel they failed with in D2. The distinct differences (and tactics needed) of different monster types. In D2 it is pretyy much all "you get swarmed" and then the "spell caster from a afar, typically raising minions" or something like that. No real variation. If that is the reason for the faster "pace" or if it is the other way arround I don't know. But it was much better in D1.I agree entirely -- I think a big reason is that in going from D1 to D2 they went from fighting individual monsters to fighting mobs (with a corresponding emphasis on mass killing skills), and apart from the difference between swarming mobs and ranged mobs, it's all pretty much a big mush. I don't know why they did that really (unless they felt players would feel better and more powerful just becuase they could kill monsters ten-at-a-time instead of one-at-a-time), but it wasn't an improvement.
Drake charge - LemmingofGlory - 01-20-2004
Quote:I agree entirely -- I think a big reason is that in going from D1 to D2 they went from fighting individual monsters to fighting mobs (with a corresponding emphasis on mass killing skills), and apart from the difference between swarming mobs and ranged mobs, it's all pretty much a big mush.
Part of it's due to the fact that you *can* get horribly, horribly mobbed. D2 has too many tiles. In D1, at most you can be attacked by 8 melee critters at once. (Okay, 9 if you manage to teleport onto a tile that already has a monster in it.) It's almost always possible to back into a corner and limit that to three. With use of dungeon objects you can often break that down to 2 or even 1 critter. Everything mattered: the shape of the dlvl, monster mix, the placement of chests, and closable doors.
In D2, on the other hand, if you stand near a doorway the game will cram a minimum of three monsters in that doorway AND a bunch of his buddies will lag-teleport behind you. Slamming a door on a monster never seems to be practical because 1) They open it and 2) It's virtually impossible to shut a door! You have to be standing just *so*, locate the part of the doorframe that displays "Close Door" (or "Screw You: Blocked Door" -- then why doesn't it look blocked?!), and then click a half-dozen times before the PC/server gets the message to shut the door. And then sometimes a door will look shut but really be open. In SP, that's just wrong.
Quote:I don't know why they did that really (unless they felt players would feel better and more powerful just becuase they could kill monsters ten-at-a-time instead of one-at-a-time), but it wasn't an improvement.
Yeah, but what was? Graphics? Well, Lut Gholein is pretty. Items? Huge quantities of things that will never be of any use to anyone. Quests? Plenty of rant fodder there. Randomization? Flew out the window. It's a heap of good ideas done very poorly. Yet, overall, it can be strangely entertaining under certain circumstances.
[o: *LEMMING* :o]
Drake charge - Thecla - 01-20-2004
LemmingofGlory,Jan 19 2004, 11:53 PM Wrote:Yeah, but what was? Graphics? Well, Lut Gholein is pretty. Items? Huge quantities of things that will never be of any use to anyone. Quests? Plenty of rant fodder there. Randomization? Flew out the window. It's a heap of good ideas done very poorly. Yet, overall, it can be strangely entertaining under certain circumstances.Well, you're asking the wrong person here -- IMO D2 was a missed opportunity, and almost nothing was better than in D1, except perhaps running in town and the alt key.
But I don't want to be too harsh on D2 -- it was still a great game, and I got a lot of mileage out of it.
Drake charge - ArthurDent - 01-20-2004
Quote:except perhaps running in town and the alt key.
Aint it wonderfull that you can do both in TheDark and still get even better gameplay and balance than D1?
By a rough estimation, the new version (5.0) will be a blast at least from a monster AI Point of view.
Witches are so smart you can't just peek-a-boo them anymore :lol:
Regards,
Arthur
Drake charge - Attika - 01-20-2004
"So I ask again: has anyone ever witnessed this in regular Diablo or Hellfire? It should be pretty obvious for high AC characters, as those should seldom be hit by normal attacks, but very frequently by the Drake's charge (because of the 500% tohit). "
Loaded up my high level warrior and trudged off to Hell in a Hell diff game. Was lucky enough to locate Gold Vipers on 13!
First tests: High AC (285) with shield
Turned my back on said Viper. It charged. No hit; no block; EVER. Secondary swings would sometimes "connect", forcing my character to change facing and block the attack.
Second tests: Low AC(74) with shield (FPM now in backpack)
Turned my back on the viper again. It charged. No hit; no block; EVER.
Secondary swings OFTEN connnected and caused my character to change facing and block the attack.
Third tests: Low AC(34) no shield
Turned my back on the viper again. It charged. No hit; no block; EVER.
Secondary attacks: OUCH!
Seems like you've discovered a bug! Grats!
Attika
PS This was regular Diablo Multiplayer
Drake charge - Zenda - 01-20-2004
Hello Attika,
Thank you, now I know for sure it had nothing to do with modding, Hellfire, or my imagination.
Drake charge - Nightwind - 01-21-2004
ArthurDent,Jan 20 2004, 01:17 AM Wrote:Aint it wonderfull that you can do both in TheDark and still get even better gameplay and balance than D1?I don't think you would be so happy about that imporved ai if you wen't the one responcible for half of it.
By a rough estimation, the new version (5.0) will be a blast at least from a monster AI Point of view.
Witches are so smart you can't just peek-a-boo them anymore
Don't you think sombody owes you enough favors that you can make them write a tactics guide ... atleast the basics for those like ME? (level 24 monk, still has trouble clearing caves)....
*shrugs* *puts away envy*
Would love to catch you for a game sometime, pick your brain...
Two playing styles...
High curve: Lots of skill, uses happy feet, can streak a BNM to Diablo, then retrive and Kill in the same game. Does 3@30.
Low Curve(me): lots of time, brute force, equpiment dependant, kills monsters until they stop giving exp, entirlly.
Drake charge - Thecla - 01-21-2004
ArthurDent,Jan 20 2004, 06:17 AM Wrote:Witches are so smart you can't just peek-a-boo them anymore :lol:Speaking as a rogue, I'm not so sure how I feel about that.
Regards,
Arthur
Btw, what did your post have to do with drake charges anyway? ;)