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Monster Cooperation - Griselda - 05-03-2004
As a mostly solo player so far, I've spent a lot of time watching the monsters (mobs?) and how they operate and interact. Although I'm only level 12 and I'm pretty sure things change quite a bit when we get to higher level areas, this is an area that I think I'd like to see tweaked a bit in future versions.
Most of my time so far has been spent dealing with monsters one-on-one. Even when I've been in a party, the group has generally isolated one or two monsters, each group member has done whatever it is that they're good at, and then the entire process is repeated for the next one or two monsters. This works well, but is often not particularly exciting.
Now, there are some areas and quests that require people to get past a large group of monsters guarding a particular area, for example, or progress through a dungeon that might be set up to spawn several monsters in the same room. These are, naturally, much more entertaining because it requires a little more thought. You might have to use tactics to work your way up the side and around the group to a more defensible position where you can pull the monsters back one at a time. Or, even if you're not working with a group, you might find that you need to party with some passers by to complete a dungeon, even if you all go your separate ways afterwards. I'd personally like to see more of this sort of thing.
As I gain levels, it seems pretty clear that there are more and more quests that require use of tactics and dealing with larger mobs. I've started to encounter groups of ranged attackers, too. :) This is great, and I'm looking forward to it. But, I'd like to see the "ordinary" mobs get bumped up a bit, both in awareness (how large an area they are aware of) and in cohesiveness (how much they "work together" with thir fellow bad guys). So far, most of the monsters have been pretty solitary guys. They don't generally work together with nearby monsters, unless I am careless enough to allow myself to enter two creatures' "threatened areas" at the same time.
There are exceptions. I've noticed that the mercenaries tend to go get other mercenaries (or their bosses!) when they're injured to the point that they run away in fear. Some monsters will become "activated" if anything happens in the area they're patrolling, so if I cast at a monster that is next to another one, in some cases both will come and attack. Last night, I think I was attacked by a kodo that was near a plainstrider who I had attacked after the plainstrider ran away in fear (I think that's what happened, but I didn't stick around to test it). But, far too often IMO, I'm able to waltz right through a guarded area, killing one creature at a time, without any of them raising any sort of general alarm. This can damage immersion to some degree when there are creatures that clearly should be able to see what you're doing to their buddies, but can't in terms of game mechanics because they're only paying attention to their little spot. While the exceptions are nice, I'd really like to see this become the rule, rather than the exception. Also, even the monsters that work together have been pretty limited in their ability to do so. Usually they only raise the alarm after they're severely injured, and only to maybe one nearby creature.
These changes would encourage players to have to think more about what they're doing, even just in moving between quests. Even if it happens more often at higher levels, I guess I'd still ask why it doesn't happen with all the monsters, or at least most of them?
I don't think this would be too difficult to implement, although I don't know the mechanics soecific to WoW. In NWN, since we were able to play with the editor, I tried some of this sort of thing out. You could set creatures to be part of different factions, and each faction would respond differently to your character's actions. So, you might have a "town guards" faction that would always attack any character that attacked any other town guard within their area of awareness. I also think it was possible to set some sort of temporary flag on the character so that, if he came across another town guard later on, they would still get attacked even though the guard did not drop everything and run halfway across town when you first made the attack. Some factions would also protect other factions if you attacked them. So, the town guards might go hostile if you attacked someone in a "townsperson" faction, but not in the "thieves" faction, for example.
Increasing the area of awareness for monster (but still keeping the variation between different creatures) would probably be fairly simple to implement, although there would be challenges. First of all, that would probably mean a big increase in cpu use and possibly latency. My guess is that's why most monsters have such a small range of awareness at the moment. I think it's worth it, and my computer's not that new, because I think it would add a lot of interest and replayability.
Also, monsters' spawn areas and locations would probably need to be changed if they were more aware and working together. Right now, for the solo player anyway, taking on more than one monster of a similar level can be very challenging. I think Charis said something like "one is best, two is a bit scary, and three means I'm dead meat." So far, that's been my experience as well. It might make sense, if players could expect to encounter more monsters at a time, to have players fighting monsters that are lower level than they are, by a little bit at least. I think it would be much more interesting for a level 9 character, for example, to have to deal with three level 6-7's than one level 9. In some cases, they might be able to use tactics to split up the group, but sometimes they might just need to use tactics to make sure they're not mobbed by 10 level 6-7's, for example.
So, that's my idea. What do you think?
-Griselda
Monster Cooperation - Nystul - 05-03-2004
I think this idea would cause many problems because of the game being "massively multiplayer". The relevent question here is: should needing 20 people to do a quest be the rule, or the exception? It seems Blizzard thinks that it should be the exception, and that most quests should be possible either solo, with a friend, or at most in a party of 5. Yet, in many cases, you will have several other parties in the area. In order to minimize the amount these groups skew each others' level of difficulty, you have to segregate the monsters neatly into separate fights.
Alternatively, you could split the players neatly into separate games, but then they won't be willing to pay a monthly fee to play anymore. ;)
Monster Cooperation - Jarulf - 05-04-2004
One nice thing with the lizzard like monsters in the Barrens (the ones looking like dinosaurus) are that when they are close to death, they scream out for help and nearby monsters (of any type as long as it is a red monster) will come to their help. Wel, they are usually allready dead. but then you face 2 or 3 monsters jumping you. One could see more like that with a monster "screaming" allready earlier. As said, one get problem then with it requiering far more players. Alternatively one can have it done so that the monsters are lower level so that it is a real challenge but manageble taking on 3 or 4 at a time. This would work arround the fact that as you are several levels above monsters, their area of activation shrinks (to eventually need you to litterally walk on top of a monster to activate it).
Monster Cooperation - Griselda - 05-04-2004
Are you saying that a monster's area of activiation changes depending upon a character's level? Or just that higher level monsters have larger areas of activation?
I'd like to know how that works. :)
-Griselda
Monster Cooperation - DeeBye - 05-04-2004
Griselda,May 4 2004, 12:18 AM Wrote:Are you saying that a monster's area of activiation changes depending upon a character's level? Or just that higher level monsters have larger areas of activation?I'm not 100% sure (that was pretty hard to follow, Jarulf! :)), but I believe that Jarulf is just making a game suggestion. I don't believe that clvl <> mlvl currently has anything to do with an enemy's area of activation. I could be wrong though. I haven't really been paying that much attention.
I'd like to know how that works. :)
-Griselda
It's an interesting suggestion nonetheless. If you ask me, it's really annoying getting aggroed by a creature 10+ levels below you. Actually, I'd like to see enemies run away from you when the clvl <> mlvl difference is really high. That would be fun.
Monster Cooperation - Nystul - 05-04-2004
I don't believe that clvl <> mlvl currently has anything to do with an enemy's area of activation.
Oh, it certainly seems to, and it is a Good Thing in my opinion. If you are getting aggro from a monster 10+ levels below you, you are probably either attacking it or walking on top of it. :) When the monsters are closer to or above your level, it seems much harder to run between them without getting mugged by one or the other.
Monster Cooperation - Ruvanal - 05-04-2004
Nystul,May 4 2004, 04:31 AM Wrote:I don't believe that clvl <> mlvl currently has anything to do with an enemy's area of activation.It also works the other way too. If you are lower level than the mob they will spot you at greater distances. Makes it hard for a lower level even travel the roads in the higher areas.
Oh, it certainly seems to, and it is a Good Thing in my opinion. If you are getting aggro from a monster 10+ levels below you, you are probably either attacking it or walking on top of it. :) When the monsters are closer to or above your level, it seems much harder to run between them without getting mugged by one or the other.
Monster Cooperation - Jarulf - 05-04-2004
Yes, the higher your level is above the monsters the closer you can get to it without "activating" it (not sure if it works the opposite way when you are below its level or if it is just a cap on it there. Try going back to a low level area and run arround the monsters, you can litterally walk up to them without they attacking (well, standing just beside them usually trigger them).
Look at a typical wilderness area with monsters the same level as you. Usually it is next to impossible to walk between the monsters without having them come to you. Or at least you have to be VERY careful. Do the same when you have gained 5 to 10 levels and you can just run through it not even bothering about it. It also means monsters usually activate once you are beside them or even past them so they end up running far behind you not really making much attacks on you.
Another noticable memory was me soloing a cave with monsters (in Darkshore I think, the mushroom cave with Nagas in. I did fine, not activating the "next" monster further in while fighting of a monster. I was probably 3 or 4 levels above the monsters. Then I did the same with two characters that were at the same level as the monsters and one even 2 or 3 levels below. As soon as they joined the fighting, they drew out the next monsters or monsters from the side paths and so on. It was next to impossible to fight the monsters one by one (and it was not them running arround triggering monsters carelessly.
Still, I would like situations were you don't just have to fight monsters one by one at your own or a bit higher level, but were you are sort of forced to take on 2, 3 or even more lower level monsters instead, if not only for a change. It do happens at times with special boss monsters, that usually comes with some boduguard monsters arround them that activate at the same time, but usually that follows an area were one first can fight monsters one by one easilly and then is stomped hard by the boss and his guards since they are usuall a few levels up. The end result is to group or to wait untl you gained 4 levels (or whatever) and then the normal monsters arround are even easier to fight one by one and one almost ignore them and then take out the boss and his guards. I would like to see the same with more "normal" monsters.
Monster Cooperation - Griselda - 05-04-2004
Well, then, we agree. :) I think that they could increase the area of activation for all monsters to make up for the fact that people would be fighting serveral lower level monsters rather than one monster of their level, and have at least that aspect of the game continue to function. I'd also like to see the "death scream" or "cry for help" behavior come sooner.
Now I know how my Tauren can run past all of those baby wolves! Now that you mention it, it also seems like I can run away from fights with them a bit easier these days (as in, trying to run from point A to point B, annoying baby monster attacks, I dodge and keep running, baby monster gives up and goes away). I'm not sure if it's really easier, though, or if I'm just not worried then they attack, so I keep going.
-Griselda
Monster Cooperation - Tal - 05-04-2004
It also affects the range that a caster needs to get into in order to successfully launch a spell at a target. Last night I was forced to move much closer to attack a lvl 12 raptor with my level 14 mage than I did to attack a level 14 or 15 raptor. There also seems to be a difference if the target is an animal versus a humanoid. I was able to attack at a much larger distance level 11 humanoids than against the lions that travel in the same area.
Monster Cooperation - Griselda - 05-05-2004
They would have to manage the aggro so that monsters were *certainly* very hard to divert from that party that had tagged the monster. When untagged monsters join in, often they will end up getting tagged by something like entangling roots that does some damage even though it's primarily crowd control. So, those monsters will group nicely into individual parties, too. So, we're left with the question of how to separate the monsters that haven't been tagged by one party or another. It seems like their would be some way that would discourage monsters from chaging targeted parties, even if they change targets within a party. Priority targeting would have to go to party members of the monster's original target.
With more monsters overall, I think there would be enough to go around. :)
-Griselda
Monster Cooperation - Nystul - 05-05-2004
The problem is not that monsters would switch their attention from one party to another. The problem is that the difficulty level of an area would become highly dependant on how many total players are questing in the immediate area. When I log in after work (around 5 A.M. Eastern), the player base is naturally much lower than at other times of day. There will usually be about 20 or 30 players in the entire zone of Mulgore, for example. Wherever I choose to quest, there aren't likely to be many players, and the mobs are usually pretty thick. A great deal of care needs to be taken to avoid getting into an unmanageable chain of fights. Quest in the same area about 14 hours later, and you may be waiting for a monster to spawn so you can kill it. However, this dynamic does not cause a big balance problem because the balance is still usually determined based on individual fights (whether it be solo mobs or "linked" groups or camps of mobs).
If monsters had greater awareness, more aggressive patrolling, and more powerful social interaction with each, then this would cause a very different balance scenario. It would be nearly impossible for me to solo after work, and ridiculously easy for me to solo before work. The difference here is that the monsters would no longer be individuals or small groups but rather a collective. Having other players near me to thin out the patrolling mobs would be the difference between me engaging one mob and then eating, or engaging one mob and having 7 more mobs get attracted into the battle before I have a chance to eat.
To see what I mean, try going to a murloc encampment or a mine when nobody is there, and compare it to a time when there are several parties clearing it at the same time. Even with the mob awareness relatively low, it already makes a huge difference in the threat level of facing additional mobs. You can try to correct this by increasing respawn rate in relationship to the number of players in the area, but if multiple parties are within visual range of each other, then respawn rate doesn't really work as a solution.
Monster Cooperation - Griselda - 05-05-2004
You could increase *and* decrease respawn rates depending upon the number of players in the area, though, so that your 5AM solo jaunts weren't impossible. That still wouldn't entirely fix the problem for extremely crowded areas, but I can't see how it would make it worse.
-Griselda