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Patch Notes Comment Thread - MongoJerry - 06-15-2004
Figured I'd start a thread to contain comments based on the patch notes, since it's going to be a while before any of us actually gets the full game downloaded.
First, this eye-popping quote from the patch notes:
Quote:With a few exceptions, all items and currency are being deleted for this patch. The following items will not be deleted: Bags, Scarlet Key, all Shaman Totems and the Hearthstone. Each character will be assigned funds based on their level.
Players will be able to redo quests that have already been completed in order to gain back quest items.
Oh, man, let the whining begin! :lol:
Note: The long-expected Talent system has not been implemented in this patch after all.
On to issues of more import: From the description given in the patch notes, the changes to the Priest class seem far more superficial than the overhaul that was implied by earlier comments from Blizzard employees. The most significant changes seem to be adjusting the relative mana costs of healing and shielding spells. With my priestess, I only ever used Holy Shield, Renew, and Flash Heal, because they cast more quickly and had nearly the same mana efficiency as the other superfluous healing spells. Well, all three of them had their mana costs increased while those previously superfluous healing spells had their mana costs decreased. How big the mana cost adjustments really are will greatly affect the balance of which spells get used the most.
I hope that there are a lot more changes to the priest than were detailed in the patch notes. For example, some class-only quests would be nice. Also, more equipment geared toward the priest would be nice, as it's boring to have mages, warlocks, and priests all looking exactly like one another.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-15-2004
Hi,
Single biggest thing is the PvP additions. Looks like we have two choices, non-consensual PvP everywhere and non-consensual PvP almost everywhere. We'll see, I guess. But so far the only thing that made Blizzard RPGs playable (IMO) was private games where we could keep the Type-A individuals out. If I *have* to put up with the crap that is so common in public b.net, then I for one will toss this game.
I guess the item and gold wipe was pretty well expected by most. I guess this was Blizzard's way of "fixing" the SM (?) exploitation. Good enough for a beta, but given their poor track record in D2 (and *no* track record in D1) I certainly hope that this doesnât become their "normal" mode to fix things. "Hope", not "expect". With the combination of item wipe, skill point nerf, and the quest wipe, getting to keep our characters and getting the old ones unlocked is pretty hollow. Again, we'll see. For sure, there are going to be a lot of characters all looking the same for a while as they run around with the best gear their money can buy. Blizzard's "well, we wanted you to keep your characters, but we want you to redo all the lower lever quests cause we tweaked them and added a few" attitude pretty well demonstrates that a compromise is usually the worse choice. It fails to accomplish either goal (making the players happy or testing the low level stuff) while irritating both sides.
The changes to the rest system are about a 50% improvement in that they took out about half of it. Taking out the other half will make it 100% better, IMO. Sure, it will no longer be such a PITA, especially as you get to where a couple of hours play knocks you down from well rested. But since the thing never had a valid purpose in the first place, and would not have accomplished it in the second, no amount of gold plating will ever make it anything other than a gold plated turd.
The auto rise on the attributes takes one more option away from the players. The linear progression of all character types has just become a bit more linear. At the present rate of progress, by the time WoW is released in December (of some year :) ) it will be a 200 hour video. You get to choose a character and his/her features. Blizzard will then do everything for you from picking quests to attacking monsters. However, you will still need to click on each and every item of loot. Probably have to even click on the "go away" button of empty loot pop ups. Bah!
Postal system sounds good. Now that a means has been generated to deliver and get payment for items, maybe the implementation of WoW-bay will make it possible to buy and sell without having to devote vast chunks of time to trading. Again, we'll see.
Mixed batch of things on trade skills. I don't see that they've fixed many of the problems with them being trade skills in the first place (too many things are only usable by the maker of the item, enchantments are almost impossible to put on worthwhile items that others have, etc.). And what's "Alchemy has been increased to level 50" mean? The same for Blacksmithing and Leatherworking. Fifty skill points (the now *scarcer* skill points) to get them? Wow, if that's the case Blizzard really knows how to fix things -- not! Not unless it either allows bigger stacks or gives more space in the bank. And ooooh! Campfires, made in the woods from wood bought in stone towns now last 10 minutes. Has anyone actually stayed by their campfire for the old 6 minutes? Has anyone other than me even much bothered with campfires? (I like one nearby when I'm fishing -- keeps the chill off).
Paladin: the most useful auras are now spells. Guess that is one way to get us to use the useless auras. Depending on duration, a Paladin can now spend 110% of their time in a group buffing and healing. I guess they crossed the line from a primarily a front line fighter to a REMF. Again, will have to see how it plays out.
Warrior: Big improvement is the addition of a brief stun to all levels of Charge. Hopefully this will eliminate the Celtic keyboard dance that had to be done with level 1 charge.
Mounts look good, although I may never get a chance to get one since leveling isn't a priority with me. Plate, ditto.
This huge push looks to me like a whole bunch of little patches that could have been released one at a time over the past weeks since the last push. Seems that that was what Blizz had promised -- remember the "test" of the patcher with the last push?
Basically, mounts is big and new, so is PvP, mail is small and new, pretty much everything else is just a tweak. Still no Hunters, no real ranged class (rogue's built in throwing is the closest), no WoW-bay, no mention of UI improvements (like a sortable spell/abilities book that stays put, like a skills page that gives attribute info (not that that matters anymore, they are auto increased for you, so whatever they do, *you* wonât have to make a choice), like moveable panes, like the ability to see what you have when you go to see a trainer), no mention of whether you'll see your arms/weapon in "first person" view.
EDIT: Most important of all, no Talents! From the standpoint of game play testing, the lack of talents means that either they will be useless or what we're doing now is little more than server loading.
Ah, well. We'll give it a test. After all, it is a beta.
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - lemekim - 06-15-2004
Quote:Quests Reset
All quest progress for existing characters has been reset. Characters have the ability to go back and redo all quests if they wish. For players that were in the middle of a quest chain, those quests will need to be restarted from the beginning.
Quests were reset to allow players the means for reacquiring lost quest items and to participate in the many quests that have been fixed and rebalanced.
Poor Mongo =( Didn't you get ready about 10 quests to turn in? =(
On a side note, warriors, as the most equipment dependent class, seem to be kinda screwed by this whole item deletion. I suppose with some "refunds" you could buy an ok weapon, but unless they give 15+ gold to a high level warrior, he won't be able to afford to buy even half of his equipment, as each piece costs 1-2 gold.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-15-2004
Hi,
unless they give 15+ gold to a high level warrior, he won't be able to afford to buy even half of his equipment, as each piece costs 1-2 gold.
Also, some items I have never seen for sale. Cloaks for one. Trinkets of various types for another. So, even with a goodly "clothing allowance", many will still come out screwed.
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-16-2004
Hi,
In case someone doesn't have the WoW page bookmarked: Patch notes
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - MongoJerry - 06-16-2004
Pete, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think! :lol:
OK, easy everyone. Remember, we only have the patch notes to go on at this time, so complaining about missing changes is a little premature as there are sure to be many changes that weren't mentioned in the patch notes.
Quote:Single biggest thing is the PvP additions. Looks like we have two choices, non-consensual PvP everywhere and non-consensual PvP almost everywhere. We'll see, I guess.
Yep, we'll see. Let's not get our blood boiling when we haven't even tried it, and let's not exaggerate to make our points. The PvE server will still not allow players to attack other players without their consent. The only thing they will be able to do is attack NPC's. Does that open the way for griefing? Of course. But how much griefing it opens up will depend on a lot of factors such as how powerful town guards are, what the respawn rate is on NPC's (Blizzard says it's fast), and whether players organize themselves to guard their cities and towns. To me, this seems like a fun idea. I personally like the idea of standing guard at towns and repelling invaders in my off hours -- and heck maybe kill off some opposing faction NPC's for the fun of it. Exploits and imbalances will be found, of course, but that's why we're testing the game.
Quote:I guess the item and gold wipe was pretty well expected by most. I guess this was Blizzard's way of "fixing" the SM (?) exploitation.
It surprised me, but I'm not bothered by it. I doubt that the Scarlet Monastery exploitation in itself was that big of a deal to them, considering that once the level cap was raised, all of those items found in the SM will be considered "useless." My suspicion is that Blizzard probably wanted to change a lot of stats and properties of items, including removing some, so rather than figure out some kind of translation mechanism from the old items to the new ones, it was probably just easier to delete everything and hand people a chunk of gold. Doing the item and gold wipe does restore some balance in the economy, though, so even though it's a blunt instrument, it'll be effective. I'm not too concerned, though. Now that people know where the "good" items drop, it won't take long for people to reequip themselves with workable equipment. You and leme are right, though, that melee classes will be the ones most affected by the wipe, but the most critical thing for them is their weapon. So, if I played a warrior, I'd buy the best weapon I could and then go to the areas where I knew the best warrior items drop and farm them for a bit. With new higher level areas opened up, I really don't think it'll take more than a couple days to gather some decent equipment (not uber -- decent).
Quote:The auto rise on the attributes takes one more option away from the players.
I agree with you here. This idea is kind of strange. Blizzard keeps saying that they want to be able to allow characters to differentiate themselves from one another and yet the changes always seem to point to making everyone the same. We'll have to see what they have planned for Talents and race abilities in the next push â¢.
Quote:Postal system sounds good. Now that a means has been generated to deliver and get payment for items, maybe the implementation of WoW-bay will make it possible to buy and sell without having to devote vast chunks of time to trading. Again, we'll see.
I'm surprised that auction houses aren't implemented in this push. I thought that they were one of the critical pieces to be added. Of course, that's what I thought about Talents, too. I guess we'll have to keep using Cosmos for trading for the time being.
Quote:Mixed batch of things on trade skills. I don't see that they've fixed many of the problems with them being trade skills in the first place (too many things are only usable by the maker of the item, enchantments are almost impossible to put on worthwhile items that others have, etc.). And what's "Alchemy has been increased to level 50" mean? The same for Blacksmithing and Leatherworking. Fifty skill points (the now *scarcer* skill points) to get them?
I think the whole tradeskills thing is something that we can't comment on until we see the new recipes and implementation for our own eyes. That "increased to level 50" comment confused a lot of people on the forums, but the best speculation for this comment I've seen is this one: There might be trade skills that allow you to make base level 50 items, which might have lower character lvl requirements if they're green or blue. Whoever wrote the patch notes was probably using internal Blizzard language to describe the changes and forgot to translate into language players use.
Quote:Basically, mounts is big and new, so is PvP, mail is small and new, pretty much everything else is just a tweak.
Yeah, from the patch notes, it does feel that way. Sure, there are three new areas and two new instances being opened up (and hopefully a lot of the open but unfinished areas will be finished, too), but overall it does sound like there are a whole lot fewer changes in this push than most players expected.
However, even Blizzard is calling this the "PvP push," so it looks like that's what they're focusing on for this push. *shrug*
Quote:Ah, well. We'll give it a test. After all, it is a beta.
Amen to that, brother!
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-16-2004
Hi,
I personally like the idea of standing guard at towns and repelling invaders in my off hours -- and heck maybe kill off some opposing faction NPC's for the fun of it.
If PvP (or even FvF) is so central to the game, how come it has no influence on the characters? I mean, fighting monsters gives to both XP to make you a better monster fighter and SP to make you a better tailor or whatever, making cloaks makes you a better tailor (up to a certain point, where you've got to go back to killing critters), but fighting other players (an admitted major goal by Blizzard) gives you squat. Blizzard likes to stress "Massively Multiplayer", but it cannot just ignore the "Role Playing" and "Game". So, just how is this PvP/FvF thing so central to the game? That, and the well known and well observed griefing issue is what's got me so pissed at this push. Maybe Blizzard is getting closer to the game they want to make, but it is getting further from the one I want to play. Perhaps I'm all wet -- wouldn't be the first time. Perhaps Blizz did it right. If so, then hooray, I've been waiting for it for years.
But consider, still. How can you really even test a PvP system when the full attributes of the characters in that system (talents) aren't even implemented yet. Isn't that a little like taking a car out for a test drive before the tires are mounted?
Sure, we don't know what Blizz is doing, or even what they are aiming for. As a friend and a boss used to say, "When you're down on the benches pulling an oar, you don't know where the ship is heading, but you have a pretty good notion if there's someone on the tiller." I (again) think there's no one at the Blizzard tiller. I think that they are doing what they know how to do rather than figuring out how to do what is necessary. And like arenas and guild houses in D2, what they can't figure out they'll just leave out.
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - MongoJerry - 06-16-2004
Quote:If PvP (or even FvF) is so central to the game, how come it has no influence on the characters?
Yet â¢
Blizzard employees have repeatedly said that this is the first stage of testing for PvP where they're testing the ground level aspects of PvP. They've said repeatedly that the implementation in this push is *not* the full implementation they plan to have on release. They've also repeatedly said that they're planning to add battlegrounds that will allow people to take over towns in some manner and earn rewards someway. We'll have to wait and see.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - Bolty - 06-16-2004
I believe the reason they took the options away for the skills is because they want players to focus on talents as the "customizable" system for characters. They also didn't want players to be put into a position where they're forced to choose between buffing up their characters' stats vs. studying new tradeskills, especially early on when you have so few skill points at all.
Not that I'm defending the position; just saying I think that's what's going through their heads.
The item and currency wipe didn't surprise me; it was a subtle reminder to players that doing the Scarlet Monastery 100 times is *not* beta testing. Of course, it punishes everyone else, too. I had planned on starting over for this push anyway, but if you're the type of player who doesn't have the time to build up their chars, that has to be very frustrating, and I feel sorry for them - especially warrior players.
In the patch notes it reads "Channeled spells can now be interrupted." Not sure what that means, exactly - they always *could* be interrupted before by a monster attack that interrupts (stuns, silences, whatever). If this means that channeled spells can be interrupted simply by being hit, the Mage just got whomped with a gigantic nerf stick. Channeling spells' uninterruptibility is what made Arcane Missiles the Mage's saving grace when all else failed, so now the Mage has nothing to fall back on when fights get up close and personal. However, we'll (okay, I'll) have to see how that plays out.
Finally, I think that with the PvP server in, we'll start to see more wacky changes to the classes in general for the next few patches as Blizzard tries to figure out how to balance PvP alongside PvM. Chances are, things will get really unbalanced back and forth until they settle on something...
-Bolty
Patch Notes Comment Thread - lemekim - 06-16-2004
Being a Shaman player I naturally looked over the Shaman changes, and overall I am disappointed. I was expecting a boost perhaps, or mana cost reduction, but instead it seems more of a nerf.
Several useless skills got moved to higher levels - Chain Lightning, Disease Cleansing totem, Poison Cleansing totem. Even the Ghost Wolf form got moved up to level 20. Ugh, what are they thinking??
Weapon buffs got some increased damage, but the mana cost also increased for them! Do I want to spend 400 mana for a 5 minute buff? I know Priest and Mage got some expensive buffs, but even though the Priest's Stamina boost costs about 800 mana, it also lasts for 30 minutes. And the only unique weapon buff, the Windfury, which had a chance to disable target for 5 seconds, got changed to just another damage boost.
And one change that surprised me, the effectiveness of healing spells got reduced as well. It costs less mana, but it also heals less. Shaman was already a subpar healer... And now he is even worse. =\
They also nerfed Earthshock =\ It was one of the strengths of having a Shaman in a party, a decent anti-caster spell.
The highly praised new ability to throw down totems on the run seems silly to me, considering that the totem itself is stationary; why would you want to run away from your totem? Still, if need was there (e.g. I was escaping mobs), I could throw down a totem in under .5 sec, so I don't see is as a big deal.
I guess we will have to wait and see if the few new totems and the higher level skills will be enough to overcome the other changes.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - Thenryb - 06-16-2004
[QUOTE]Single biggest thing is the PvP additions. Looks like we have two choices, non-consensual PvP everywhere and non-consensual PvP almost everywhere. We'll see, I guess. But so far the only thing that made Blizzard RPGs playable (IMO) was private games where we could keep the Type-A individuals out. If I *have* to put up with the crap that is so common in public b.net, then I for one will toss this game.
Couldn't agree with you more on that. Even the current environment without PvP is like playing in a public battlenet channel much of the time. Thinking of what it will be like when the game goes retail and there are even more rude children (of all ages) playing, makes one want to shudder. As to item and gold wipes, I am somewhat indifferent to that; my main concern is the clamor for PvP and the fear that Blizzard will pander to the LeEt DoOds.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - lemekim - 06-16-2004
Bolty,Jun 16 2004, 01:59 AM Wrote:In the patch notes it reads "Channeled spells can now be interrupted." Not sure what that means, exactly - they always *could* be interrupted before by a monster attack that interrupts (stuns, silences, whatever). If this means that channeled spells can be interrupted simply by being hit, the Mage just got whomped with a gigantic nerf stick. Channeling spells' uninterruptibility is what made Arcane Missiles the Mage's saving grace when all else failed, so now the Mage has nothing to fall back on when fights get up close and personal. However, we'll (okay, I'll) have to see how that plays out.
Yes Bolty, any hit or damage interrupts the channeling.
The Warlock probably got whomped with an even bigger stick then the mage. Life Drain, Soul Drain, and a few others were also channelling. Perhaps the Warlock will be more fun for you to play now, when managing aggro is extremely important, much more so then last push. Last push when I played him, I couldn't just tank stuff with Drain Life, the way I've seen many Warlocks do this push. Even getting the Soul Shard if you ran out was such a pain with the Imp; he had to do just enough damage to pull the Mob off you, and last long enough for you to kill him with Drain Soul. Arggghhh.
Btw, this channeling change will make another quest essentially impossible solo (except for warlock maybe). There is a quest in Desolace that requires you to get "soul shards" from certain Burning Blade orcs; but unfortunately they do not run when low on HP, so somehow you have to use a channeling spell while tanking them. Brilliant.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - MongoJerry - 06-16-2004
Quote:Yes Bolty, any hit or damage interrupts the channeling.
An interesting twist to this is that it also affects priests in a small way. Mind Control is a channeling spell, so any little hit will break the control and send the mob after the caster. This can be important, because often when I've used MC in solo situations, I'll MC one mob and the mob's partner might choose to come after me instead of the mob I've MC'd. Before, I would absorb a few hits before I'd finally get my pet to do enough damage to take aggro off me. Now, one hit will (probably) break the control. Also, if the companion is a mob with an area of effect attack, that'd be nasty. Still, MC's range has increased, so maybe in the end that'll compensate for the change by making it more likely that mobs will attack my MC'd pet rather than me. We'll see.
As was said when D2's 1.10 patch came out: We will adjust.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-16-2004
Hi,
Go here to see some early user's reports.
Seems that some of the changes are better than reported, some worse. Some of the reported changes apparently didn't happen (charge level 1 ?) and many many things were changed that were not reported. Or, in other words, business as usausl :)
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - Tal - 06-16-2004
MongoJerry,Jun 15 2004, 05:16 PM Wrote:First, this eye-popping quote from the patch notes:But I'm disapointed that they're deleting items and resetting quests. My two main characters were just starting to find some nice things. It will take me a little while to rebuild their kits. I haven't been able to get the Beta re-downloaded but I'm assuming that the resources I had in my bank were also deleted. If I had had those available I would have been able to use Sharanna's blacksmithing to create a new kit for her. As it is I'll have to wait until I get online and see how much money she's been given and what is available at the NPC vendors. This "fix" just seems like a slap in the face of those who weren't abusing the system and who didn't partake in trading for items either. But there's nothing that can be done about it but to rebuild. :) Since I'm being forced to start over I may go ahead and just re-create my smaller characters and work on rebuilding the main ones at leisure.
Quote:With a few exceptions, all items and currency are being deleted for this patch. The following items will not be deleted: Bags, Scarlet Key, all Shaman Totems and the Hearthstone. Each character will be assigned funds based on their level.
Players will be able to redo quests that have already been completed in order to gain back quest items.
Oh, man, let the whining begin! :lol:
*Warning whine ahead*
I had just spent the last two days doing the Wailing Caverns quests on my mage. Due to various and sundry problems with different groups, incompetent party members, etc it has taken the better part of these two days to complete them. I only had one Fanglord left and was hoping to knock him out tonite. With the reset of the quests however I'll need to re-do them again. :( Since I had turned in most of the rest yesterday before patching I may just grab the fanglord ones and try to knock it out this week/weekend before heading back to undead lands to pick up the rest of the quests.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-16-2004
Hi,
I'm assuming that the resources I had in my bank were also deleted
Yep. As well as any "tools" needed for trades. As far as I can tell, the only things you get to keep are hearthstones, bags (both on you and in bank), and the money they give you.
As an aside: I'd never noticed how flabby the butt of the human female avatar is until I had to watch one run from Lakeview (?) to Stormwind. One would think that someone who *ran* everywhere all the time would be pretty firm from the waist down :)
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - TheDragoon - 06-16-2004
One thing that I don't remember seeing listed that is now in the game is that higher ranked skills do not automatically overwrite the lower ranked skills in you spellbook.
For example, I started a Priest character and when she got Lesser Heal Rank 2 I could actually have 2 separate skills on my action bar... Lesser Heal Rank 1 AND Lesser Heal Rank 2. Thus, if I need a faster, smaller heal I could use Rank 1, but if I wanted a bigger heal (with 0.5 more seconds to cast), I can use Rank 2.
I guess you won't have to make the decision whether the extra damage is worth the tradeoff of a bigger mana cost for some spells since there doesn't appear to be any reason to NOT buy skills now. However, I suppose someone with a non-priest should probably verify that this is the way it is working for other classes, now. :)
Patch Notes Comment Thread - Nystul - 06-16-2004
The ability to choose between different ranks of the same spell has always been there. Perhaps you have been playing more melee-oriented classes in the past? If there is no benefit to using the lower rank of a skill, then you don't get the choice to use it and it is automatically replaced on your hotkeys by the higher rank. All warrior and rogue skills work this way, for instance. Many caster skills have never worked that way, because with higher mana costs and longer casting times you may not want to use the higher rank.
Patch Notes Comment Thread - --Pete - 06-16-2004
Hi,
Thank you for that explanation. I had noticed that some upgrades automatically replaced the lower rank and others didn't but had never associated it with the cost. I just shrugged it off as an anomaly not even worth /bugging.
--Pete
Patch Notes Comment Thread - TheDragoon - 06-16-2004
Well, the main gripe I had heard regarding things like this was for mages and their discussion about Frost Nova where people advocated NOT getting the upgrades due to the increased mana cost. I wonder why Blizzard would allow this for some skills when it's useful, but not for others. *shrug*