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IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-10-2009
I was doing a solo (mp) IM yesterday as a warrior and got to 13. The enemies were succubi and guardians - quite possibly (probably) the easiest combination of monsters for 13. Even though I had loads of pots coming in (I hit an eldritch on 11 or 12) I used them all and died on that level. So I want some advice. Without fire resistance (I chose not to wear my crimson amulet of trouble, although that might have been a mistake) the inferno that guardians cast is quite painful. What do you do about that? Also, how do you consistently make witches stand in place so you can bow them without them shooting at you? It happens sometimes across a corner, but I don´t know how to make it happen consistently.
IM advice - Galbraith - 05-10-2009
Yes, all types of balrogs are pain for me in IMs too. Maybe some more experienced IM players know some tricks against balrog types. I would like to know them, too. I always pray to not have too many balrog-type monster in IM - thatâs my way . However it is almost always good to get close to them asap, do not waiting with shift-hitting. Of course it would be good to have some resistance to fire and -dfe probably too. But it depends only on your luck to items. What if you have not got such things? - make them to follow you few corners, make them split if there is more than 1, and then - get close to one and hit as mad. their hit recovery is really fast, so prepare you would not stunlock them. Just hitting for quick-kill and stop them casting their inferno. They hand-to-hand damage can hurt too. Hitting them you have chance interrupting their melee attacks which is quite long, but inferno still can hurt, and cannot be interrupted once it is casted (breathed). And I prefer to stay in one place and just hit them, than change position to another to avoid inferno, because that inferno can be recasted in new position very quickly by them.
About succubi - I don't know is shooting them is good way to kill them with warrior. However - Always fighting with them is easier when using territory to your advantage (like with almost always). Shish-kebabs, corners (they come to you and sometimes shooting bloodstars at corner, but it hit corner, not you). Or corner them with some melee weapon. As you probably know, there are 4 types of succubus. 2 of them will not fire across chests and some other obstacles to long (wiser ones) and will try to chase you to have clear shoot - you can then use this behavior for your advantage and try to hunt them if they get close enough. Of course it is very good to have enough damage to stun-lock, and of course enough tch% to stun-lock them for more efficiently.
To summarize, always thinks how to well use territory to make it your best friend. Using it you have some crowd-control advantage or can slow down some though monsters chasing you, making them to loose tight on corners, setting them in "queue" formation going to you almost one by one.
IM advice - Nystul - 05-10-2009
Congratulations on making it to hell. I'd much rather face black knights and cave vipers, especially if the warrior still has his first game blocking bonus.:)
There is not a whole lot you can do with balrog and their kin to avoid the inferno. The most important thing is to scout carefully and activate as few as possible to begin with. String them out if possible by going into previously cleared territory so that you can kill one before the next one gets to you. Try to ambush at a corner to get a hit in before the inferno starts.
Consistently freezing witches at a corner in a solo game is kind of tricky. It will only work with dumb witches, so don't try on hell spawn or soul burners. The orientation of the corner matters. If memory serves correctly, the wall that your character will be hugging should be above him on the screen, such that you can see the face of the wall. You can experiment to figure out for sure which orientations will work. Sounds kind of kinky. At the other corners, it just won't work. I think you need to take about 3 or 4 steps around the corner. If you go too far, the witch will chase you around the corner. If you don't go far enough, either they won't give you a shot or they will hit the back wall and come around the corner. If there is enough room in front of the back wall, you might be able to freeze more than one witch at a time. But certainly if you wake up too many of them, you might freeze one or two and the rest will come around and shoot you.
IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-10-2009
Thanks to both of you. Btw, I have decided to follow your lead, Nystul, and in solo-mp games I only play if I can do it while keeping my blocking bonus. Among the many, many advantages you often can block the arrows from fire-trapped chests, which, in my opinion, are the most frustrating way to end an IM game. Besides, in any IM game where I don´t have a blocking bonus I spend most of my id´s looking for items with + dex largely for the block (a little for the cth as well).
And yes, it sounds kind of kinky.
IM advice - Gillias - 05-11-2009
Congratulations on getting to 13 ! That's certainly not always going to happen with a solo warrior.
The magical distance for "freezing" dumb AI ranged attackers (such as Succubi) is 4 tiles. It works best at corners, but the lower tier AI can be fooled in many spots : obstacles, invisible walls and even the stairs.
If you're really confident (or in a pinch), you can also play a shootout with a single witch (or even 2 - but not recommended) if you keep your distance and just shoot - dodge - shoot at the stationary witch. Of course the Rogue excells at this, but the Warrior's bow speed is not too slow to do this.
Concerning Balrog types : these are always going to be a drain on your pots. Use fire resist if possible. Scout carefully, don't fight more than one if you can avoid it. TP out immediately if you wake up a bunch (or string them out if you have room), then work your way back from the stairs. Get up close asap so they don't use their inferno as much. Attika has a nice tactic for avoiding most of the inferno : here. You can also trap a single Rog in the stairs down, but it's rather tricky.
The worst is Balrogs on 13, since their boss Blackskull is present. He and his pack don't use inferno, but they are next to impossible to seperate and they pack a huge punch ...
Cheers,
Gil.
IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-11-2009
Thanks for the advice. I'm just a bit confused as to this part
Quote:The magical distance for "freezing" dumb AI ranged attackers (such as Succubi) is 4 tiles. It works best at corners, but the lower tier AI can be fooled in many spots : obstacles, invisible walls and even the stairs.
If I understand correctly this whole tactic only works on dumb AI ranged attackers. What part is only applicable to "lower tier AI" and who are included in that list? Or do you mean that for the dumb AI you can use any one of several obstacles to get them to sit? I'm not trying to nitpick here.
IM advice - Gillias - 05-11-2009
The theory :
Jarulf's Guide 5.3.3 "Attack types" shows that all monsters of the Succubi type have Goat Archer AI and that there are 4 subtypes, with the following Intelligence Factors and Behavior :
Subtype : Intf / Behavior
Succubus : 0 / D-
Snow Witch : 1 / D-
Hell Spawn : 2 / DF
Soul Burner : 3 / DF
D = can open doors
F = can follow player beyond walls and obstacles
The Succubus and Snow Witch fall under what I call the low-tier AI category : they have "dumb" AI. Hell Spawn and Soul Burner are in the upper-tier category and are "smart". Similar for Goat Archers : Flesh Clan and Stone Clan are dumb, while Fire Clan and Night Clan are smart.
Jarulf's Guide 5.5.9 "AI Scripts" lists the Goat Archer AI routine. This is where the magical distance of 4 tiles comes from. When the distance between the monster and the player is greater than 3 tiles, the AI sits still and fires at the player, unless the player is out of sight. In the latter case, the AI will walk towards the last seen position of the player. When the distance is lower than 4 tiles, the AI has a chance to walk away from the player. This chance increases with the Intelligence Factor of the monster : chance = 10 * Intf + 70. Basicly, this determines how likely the monster is to run away from you when you are close. Soul Burners will always immediately run away from you (chance = 100%), while Succubi might sit still for a while before they will withdraw.
Jarulf's Guide 5.5.5 "About Ranged Attack" notes that the AI will check if the line of sight is blocked and will try to find another action to perform if so. The check isn't foolproof however, so a ranged attack may be carried out even though the shot impacts some obstacle between the monster and the player. Now, I believe the F flag determines if the monster has another action to perform or not.
In practice :
Succubi and Snow Witches can be made to sit at corners without firing, when you are 4 tiles away. Soul Burners won't fall for this, and IIRC Hell Spawn very rarely if ever do. Succubi and Snow Witches can also be fooled by having an obstacle inbetween them and you to block their shots. Soul Burners will almost always start walking up to the obstacle and around it, after maybe firing one shot at the obstacle. I think Hell Spawn might sometimes stay and shoot the obstacle, but I am always wary of them and expect them to move at some point.
I recommend you take a non-IM Warrior or Rogue to Hell and start playing around with the witch AI. Place a corner, obstacle, invisible wall or the stairs down between them and you. Vary your position and note their behavior. Take out a bow and have a shootout with a single witch (timely dodge their shots). In time, you get a feel for what works and what doesn't and with that knowledge you will be better armed for your next foray into Hell.
Good luck !
Cheers,
Gil.
IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-11-2009
Thanks both for the theory and for the practical advice. I saved my high level characters in some folder somewhere. I'll have to dig one up.
IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-14-2009
Quote:I was doing a solo (mp) IM yesterday as a warrior and got to 13. The enemies were succubi and guardians - quite possibly (probably) the easiest combination of monsters for 13. Even though I had loads of pots coming in (I hit an eldritch on 11 or 12) I used them all and died on that level. So I want some advice. Without fire resistance (I chose not to wear my crimson amulet of trouble, although that might have been a mistake) the inferno that guardians cast is quite painful. What do you do about that? Also, how do you consistently make witches stand in place so you can bow them without them shooting at you? It happens sometimes across a corner, but I don´t know how to make it happen consistently.
I was talking to Attika and this is what he said
"If you were doing a lock in (no re-visiting a Blood Fountain then) and got Balrog-types on a level, and you were a solo warrior, I'd also consider IDing bows and hoping for something with elemental damage on it. Then you play a "run and shoot" style game, taking the occasional inferno. It might appear that the Balrog's circular movement AI would make bowing them down impossible, but that isn't so. The first two Rog-types walk nearly straight toward you, like a knight does. For dealing with the later two, with their circular movements, you simply walk to a wall that has a clean shot to them(no hidden overhangs that stop shots). Eventually their circular movement makes them hit the wall and then turn against the wall toward you. You'll get in two to three shots, then run and repeat (best done with a lightning elemental bow, if possible). Long and boring, but it does work."
I wasn't doing lock-in, but I didn't have a BF either so it works out about the same.
IM advice - Nystul - 05-15-2009
You need a few clear rooms to retreat to before considering bow tactics with a warrior. Sometimes I even feel that way with a rogue. And I wouldn't consider it very realistic to hope for a lightning enchanted bow on demand. But I'm sure it could be done with time and space and even a regular long battle bow (especially if you are Attika). Just make sure you are ready to react appropriately if something happens like waking up 6 balrogs at once while you are holding a bow.
IM advice - Thenryb - 05-15-2009
Quote:You need a few clear rooms to retreat to before considering bow tactics with a warrior. Sometimes I even feel that way with a rogue. And I wouldn't consider it very realistic to hope for a lightning enchanted bow on demand. But I'm sure it could be done with time and space and even a regular long battle bow (especially if you are Attika). Just make sure you are ready to react appropriately if something happens like waking up 6 balrogs at once while you are holding a bow.If you get red rogs and Blackskull on level 13 as a warrior you are likely dead with or without a lightning bow, even if you are Attika (well, ok , maybe not if you are Attika).
IM advice - weakwarrior - 05-17-2009
Quote:If you get red rogs and Blackskull on level 13 as a warrior you are likely dead with or without a lightning bow, even if you are Attika (well, ok , maybe not if you are Attika).
On the other hand, if you get a fire bow your chances are much improved. Assuming you spotted the boss glow and did not activate blackskull till everything else was clear, you can tag all the mosters with the fire bow (thus stopping regen - see Attika´s post on fire elemental bows) and then switch to whichever bow you have with maximum damage (you might need to repair a few times in the middle) and run around the level for a few hours shooting back at the balrogs. Because they have delays built into their AI you shouldn´t have a problem staying ahead of them. 2 hours, 5 bows, and 6 fingers later you should have a qlvl 30 drop:)
IM advice - Hureg - 05-22-2009
Haha!
Excellent.
I'm keen to prove Thenryb wrong! Though it might take me some years to even have the chance to play enough IM games to happen upon balrogs on 13....
Anyways, great to see some IM strategy discussion boys!
And turns out the good news continues as the Germans have organised a tournament, where out our friend Attika has registered a team with this weakwarrior fellow, so we all have the chance to compete against the master!