1. Players are asked only to roll on items that they "need." If everyone passes on an item, then the item is distributed manually, usually via the use of the in-game random number generator ("/rand 100"). This is a fair and consistent system, but it still has the flaw of slowing down a party.<>
   
2. Players are told to roll on everything that isn't bind-on-pickup. If a person "needs" an item, then it's incumbent on that person to tell the group that they do. If more than one person needs the item, whichever had the highest roll on the automatic roller wins the item (if the person who won the roll didn't "need" the item, then they must give the item to the highest roller who needs the item). With bind-on-pickup items, people are asked to wait to make certain that someone doesn't need an item before rolling on the item for "greed." This system has the benefit of being fast -- everyone rolls on everything, little or no discussion needed -- but it has the downside of more mistakes being made. Many minibosses look like normal mobs, and it's easy for someone who's tired to unthinkingly roll on a bind-on-pickup item that they don't need. Group Loot doesn't warn a person that he or she is rolling on a bind-on-pickup item, and there's no way to retract one's roll once one has already chosen to roll. I've seen this situation happen more than once, and it can be a bad situation that causes a lot of bad blood.<>
   [st]
   Group Loot was a good start along the way to making a fair and fast way of distributing loot, but it's still not perfect. It seems to me that if the majority of players want to distribute loot via the principle of "need before greed," then there should be a loot setting to reflect that, and my proposal here is to create a such a loot setting.
   
   For completeness sake, I'll mention that there is a loot setting called "Need Before Greed," but in reality, it is just Group Loot with the restriction that players who can't equip an item can't roll on the item. That is, a mage couldn't roll on a plate chestpiece, but a warrior can still roll on a cloth robe (since the warrior technically can wear it). I have never seen any pickup groups use this setting, and I suggest that it be replaced with the new loot setting I propose below.
   
   The New Proposed "Need Before Greed" Loot Setting
   
   Since most players want to distribute loot via the principle of "Need Before Greed," (NBG), I propose that a new loot system be created to reflect that. Whenever a green, blue, or purple item drops, all partymembers should receive a popup dialog box that gives them three choices:
   • Need<>
     
   • Greed<>
     
   • Pass<>
     [st]
     When players make their choices, the party chat channel should show messages like "So-n-so declares NEED," "So-n-so2 declares GREED," and "So-n-so3 declares PASS."
     
     Once all players have declared Need, Greed, or Pass, then the server should roll and distribute the loot accordingly. That is, players who declare Need get priority over players who declare Greed. If no one declares a Need for the item, then the server should roll for those who declared they wanted the item for Greed reasons. Finally, if everyone passes, then the item stays on the corpse. (Note: The server should also automatically roll again to break any tie rolls. For some reason, that doesn't happen with Group Loot now).
     
     This system would be fast, less prone to mistakes, and best of all, reflect the loot distribution wishes of most WoW players. I urge the developers at Blizzard to implement this system as soon as it can reasonably be done.

MongoJerry,Dec 30 2004, 03:51 PM Wrote:The New Proposed "Need Before Greed" Loot Setting

Since most players want to distribute loot via the principle of "Need Before Greed," (NBG), I propose that a new loot system be created to reflect that.&nbsp; Whenever a green, blue, or purple item drops, all partymembers should receive a popup dialog box that gives them three choices:

• 
  <>
  
• Need
  
  <>
  
• Greed
  
  <>
  
• Pass
  
  <>
  [st]
  When players make their choices, the party chat channel should show messages like "So-n-so declares NEED," "So-n-so2 declares GREED," and "So-n-so3 declares PASS."
  
  Once all players have declared Need, Greed, or Pass, then the server should roll and distribute the loot accordingly.&nbsp; That is, players who declare Need get priority over players who declare Greed.&nbsp; If no one declares a Need for the item, then the server should roll for those who declared they wanted the item for Greed reasons.&nbsp; Finally, if everyone passes, then the item stays on the corpse.&nbsp; (Note: The server should also automatically roll again to break any tie rolls.&nbsp; For some reason, that doesn't happen with Group Loot now).
  
  This system would be fast, less prone to mistakes, and best of all, reflect the loot distribution wishes of most WoW players.&nbsp; I urge the developers at Blizzard to implement this system as soon as it can reasonably be done.
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Treesh,Dec 30 2004, 03:00 PM Wrote:But wouldn't the people who are greedy anyway just lie and declare NEED anyway, regardless of if they need it or not?  What about the people who decide they need it for an alt and declare need despite the fact that a character in the group needs it for an immediate upgrade?  These are a couple of problems I can see with allowing the players to choose if they are needy or greedy.

MongoJerry,Dec 30 2004, 04:23 PM Wrote:Treesh, it's like I'm proposing a better apple picker, and you're countering with, "But that won't help pick oranges better!"&nbsp; Yes, you're right, but that's not the problem I'm trying to solve.&nbsp; I am not proposing an anti-ninja-looting system.&nbsp; I am instead trying to make the normal distribution of loot in a functioning party easier.&nbsp; I am trying to improve upon Group Loot, which does only a little about ninja-looting as well. (Group Loot and my proposed NBG system does have the advantage over Round Robin in that at least you have a chance to roll higher than the attempted ninja-looter).

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Pete,Dec 30 2004, 04:22 PM Wrote:As an aside to Treesh:&nbsp; I doubt that it is even possible to do more than a rough job of detecting 'need' algorithmically, especially when dealing with roleplayers.&nbsp; Ultimately, the way to have a good game is to play with good people -- and that is what the 'friends' are for :)

--Pete
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Pete,Dec 30 2004, 03:22 PM Wrote:Looks reasonably good, although I really don't see a need for 'pass'.  Seems like anyone who doesn't need an item could still use it just for cash.

MongoJerry,Dec 30 2004, 02:31 PM Wrote:Some groups also like to evenly distribute the greed loot, so a person who has won a couple of greed items might want to Pass to make sure that others who have been less lucky get a better shot at getting some of the greed loot.&nbsp; Also, I've played in some parties (with mostly Amazon Basin people), where we agreed that I would get all greed items to disenchant, and then I, in turn, would enchant my partymates' items with the resulting collected material.&nbsp; In this case, my other partymates would all want to pass if they had no need for the item.&nbsp; I don't think having three choices overcomplicates things.
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MongoJerry,Dec 30 2004, 03:31 PM Wrote:Some groups also like to evenly distribute the greed loot, so a person who has won a couple of greed items might want to Pass to make sure that others who have been less lucky get a better shot at getting some of the greed loot.&nbsp; Also, I've played in some parties (with mostly Amazon Basin people), where we agreed that I would get all greed items to disenchant, and then I, in turn, would enchant my partymates' items with the resulting collected material.&nbsp; In this case, my other partymates would all want to pass if they had no need for the item.&nbsp; I don't think having three choices overcomplicates things.
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• a need before greed philosophy by passing on items that you can’t/won’t use and someone else needs.<>
  
• if an item isn’t needed by anyone, those who would normally be eligible (melees for +str/sta/agi items or casters for +int/spir/sta items, for example) can quickly say ‘don’t need, roll everyone’ or the like so that everyone can roll for the vendor sale or left to enchanters. This can be agreed upon beforehand so people know to wait briefly before rolling or passing.<>
  
• any items mistakenly looted (that aren’t Bind on Pickup, of course) can be given to the appropriate person afterward.<>
  
• anyone refusing to do the above when they have no justification for doing so can be reprimanded, kicked out of the group, and/or guild blacklisted.<>
  
• similarly, with my proposed change in place, anyone that loots a Bind on Pickup item despite the warning prompt can be reprimanded, kicked out of the group, and/or guild blacklisted.<>
  [st]The ideal loot system is one that would balance the convenience of automating most loot while retaining enough control for the exceptional cases. The Group Loot system with the fixes I propose would round robin normal items, automate dice prompts and inventory placement for green+ items, and provide a safety clause for Bind on Pickup items. The current systems all have a failing or two - Round Robin, in the manner that most high level instance groups use it, sucks in the convenience department because it requires manual intervention for almost every step; Group Loot doesn’t provide a safety clause for Bind on Pickup items as well as possessing the aforementioned quirks.
  
  
  ”I hate group loot cause everyone in front gets all the good stuff and I’m stuck in the back getting the shaft.”
  
  It seems a lot of people are confused with the way the current loot systems are implemented. I'm going to reply to this post with a brief summary of the various looting systems, but in the meantime, I'll address this one directly:
  
  Group Loot, in regards to normal items like linen and potions, is exactly the same as Round Robin. A lot of people don’t think so, but my guess is that’s because of the ‘seeing stars on every corpse because of money’ characteristic that I talked about earlier. So that means in a group of five with Group Loot, you’re gonna get a chance to loot items like silk and claws one in every five kills, just like you would if the loot was set to Round Robin. It doesn’t matter if you’re in the front or the back, because the monster that has items you can loot is ‘assigned’ to you when your round in the group comes up.
  
  In Round Robin with a group of five, you get the technical right to loot every fifth monster killed, including any green or blue items that are there. Group Loot works the exact same way as Round Robin, except it gives a dice prompt on green or higher items to the entire group if they’re close by.
  
  
  "What about someone who is too far away to receive a dice prompt or dead? Doesn’t it screw them?"
  
  Again, just because you’re using Group Loot to automate most of your normal loot transactions, doesn’t mean that you throw normal intervention out the window. What would happen in the situation described using old school Round Robin?
  
  “Hey, don’t loot yet. Talbain died. Wait for him to rez first.”
  
  “Oh schnap, the Crimson Breastplate of Craziness dropped.” “Wait up, Kasi isn’t here – hey Kasi, you rolling for that?” “Yeah, I’ll roll, I’m on my way.”
  
  You can do the same in Group Loot for this kind of special circumstance by having everyone pass on their roll so that it can be rolled manually afterward:
  
  “Everyone pass on the roll since Maia is dead. We’ll do a manual /random when she gets here.” <everyone passes, and the item stays on the corpse> (if someone accidentally already rolled on an item, that can be fixed afterward by giving to the winner if the item is tradable, or on a Bind-on-Pickup item, that person can click ‘no’ during the confirmation step).
  
  (with my proposed change for BoP items given a prompt to the dice winner): “Oh schnap, Dorothy’s Ruby Slippers dropped.” <everyone rolls except Janus> “Janus? You rolling?” “He must be out of distance, say no to the prompt and we’ll get his roll manually when he arrives.” “It’s alright, I pass, Ruby Slippers probably don’t fit me anyway.”
  
  Is it harder to make a mistake using Round Robin? Yes, perhaps, but it’s also a bigger inconvenience with the lack of automation. I will say that until Group Loot gets fixed (if ever), I recommend along with most others to use Round Robin and manual rolling in pick up groups.
  
  
  The inadequate state of the current loot systems affects both high level instance groups and to a greater degree, casual pickup groups where often the inexperience of the players regarding the looting system causes arguments and frustration. Group loot provides a good interface for quick rolling and loot distribution but needs to be refined in the ways I described to be useful.

Malakar,Dec 31 2004, 03:09 PM Wrote:I'd also like to see NBG loot setting fixed. Warriors rolling on cloth is ridiculous.