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Paladin Build - mjdoom - 02-03-2005
Ok, so after the post I made earlier today I got to thinking about how to go about making a paladin designed as a tank (with some of the built in benefits of paladins like some healing abilities, rezzing, etc.)
I used a talent calculator to make out this build but I'd certainly appreciate comments. My paladin alt is currently level 10 so it's about time to decide what to do with him anyway. Also note that I might switch him to being an engineer so I can use things like bombs to generate more hate.
Here's the build I came up with, I have added comments for each talent:
Holy Talents (0 points)
None: This paladin will be a tank as his main purpose and his healing ability is only an additional utility.
Protection Talents (21 points)
Redoubt - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to block attacks with your shield by 30% after being the victim of a critical strike. Lasts 10 seconds or 5 blocks.
I intend to have retribution aura up almost exclusively so the utility of devotion aura is almost nil. This will help with damage reduction anyway. (A general question, if I successfully "block" will retribution aura proc, my gut is that it won't but I'm not sure)
Toughness - 5/5 points
Increases your armor value from items by 10%.
More damage reduction.
Shield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by ?.
This is absorption instead of blocking so retribution aura should still proc. More defense.
Improved Seal of Fury - 4/5 points
Increases the amount of threat generated by your Seal of Fury and Judgement of Fury by 12%.
This is for those pesky mobs that try to run from me. A quick flash of Seal of Fury and a few swings will hopefully regain the mobs attention while a caster stops nuking.
Blessing of Sanctuary - 1/1 point
Places a Blessing on the friendly target, reducing damage dealt from all sources by 7 for 5 minutes. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
In a perfect world I would always have this on me to reduce damage I take even further. The only potential pitfall is if I'm not doing enough damage to keep aggro I might need to switch to Blessing of Might.
Holy Shield - 1/1 point
Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 seconds and deals 40 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.
If I'm especially taking a beating from many directions this should help soften the blow and dish out some damage to those mobs in return. Also, I am gearing toward doing holy damage so this damage will be scaled up in some situations.
Retribution Talents (30 points)
Improved Blessing of Might - 5/5 points
Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Blessing of Might by 20%.
This is for when I need to do more damage to keep aggro. Also, from my limited research it seems that reducing mana costs for retribution talents only won't help me too much with this build.
Improved Seal of the Crusader - 5/5 points
Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.
This is my big opener for the main mob in a pull. Open with SotC and after a swing or two judge the seal to increase holy damage to that mob. From this point forward I will be using Seal of Command and other holy damage enhancers like retribution aura that will all benefit from the judged seal.
Vengeance - 5/5 points
Gives you a 15% bonus to Physical and Holy damage you deal for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike.
In combination with Conviction below this will help me to increase my holy damage output even more as well as increase my physical damage to help my dps and with keeping mobs glued to me (This can help consecration and retribution aura do more damage to keep those off mobs swinging at me and not the squishy casters)
Seal of Command - 1/1 point
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of command for 30 seconds, giving the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to the damage of the Paladin's weapon. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 seconds, causing 24 Holy damage any time the enemy becomes stunned. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
This will be my main attack seal. Once SotC is judged it will increase the damage done when this procs. In the case of single mobs getting pulled off of me I can judge this seal followed by Hammer of Justice (as opposed to going Seal of Fury) to slow them down and resume the beatdown while doing even more damage.
Anticipation - 3/5 points
Increases your Defense skill by 6.
More damage reduction. If I could find a place to steal some points from they would probably go here.
Improved Retribution Aura - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your Retribution Aura by ?.
Retribution Aura will be my aura of choice other than certain situations (when resistances are necessary for example). This is my main ability to hold aggro on groups of mobs (along with Consecrate) as this will proc every time a mob hits me and generate more hate toward me, lessening the chance that they will break free.
Consecration - 1/1 point
Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing 120 Holy damage over 8 seconds to enemies who enter the area.
This is my aoe attack to grab some hate on enemies surrounding me. The damage is minimal but stacked with holy damage enhancement and Retribution Aura procs it should help keep attention on me.
Conviction - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with melee weapons by 5%.
This is mostly to help proc Vengeance more as well as having the added bonus of increasing my damage output.
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Using this setup I would also intend to keep Blessing of Salvation on at least any healer in the group to minimize the chance of breakaways due to healing. Retribution Aura, Consecration, and bombs from engineering would be my aoe to keep multiple mobs on me while the increased holy damage from judging the SotC should help keep the main mob fighting me. Lots of damage reduction would hopefully lessen the amount of damage I take from the mobs thereby increasing my staying power and lessening the chance of a healer having to chain heal me (which can easily lead to the healer gaining aggro). I would be looking for top items to reduce the damage I take and try to get a decent dps one-hander so that I am still doing enough damage to stop nukers from grabbing aggro.
If mobs do try to get away I have Seal of Fury and Hammer of Justice to try to slow them down. I also have Paladin abilities like Seal of Protection to use in a pinch and if absolutely necessary I can heal myself. As long as this paladin can hold aggro decently well I would think that survivability would be high and although pally dps is not the highest in the game, with the additional holy damage I would be dishing out I should be able to contribute to taking down any mob.
The major caveat to this is I have not really played a paladin to high levels so I'm not sure how this would all work out. I would welcome any and all comments ("Hey, you don't know what you're talking about" or even "Hmm, maybe that's an idea worth trying").
- mjdoom
Edit: As Occhi would say, preview post is your friend.
Paladin Build - Artega - 02-03-2005
I'm apparently missing something here, because I've always heard that Warriors are better than Paladins at generating and maintaining aggro. The only difference between the two seems to be the DPS difference, and the Paladin's ability to heal. It just seems that if you're pretty much ignoring your healing abilities, you'd be better off playing a Warrior :mellow:
Paladin Build - vor_lord - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 04:46 AM Wrote:I'm apparently missing something here, because I've always heard that Warriors are better than Paladins at generating and maintaining aggro. The only difference between the two seems to be the DPS difference, and the Paladin's ability to heal. It just seems that if you're pretty much ignoring your healing abilities, you'd be better off playing a Warrior :mellow:
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Generating and maintaining aggro for a paladin is much harder than it is for a warrior (as it should be). I'm told consecration works reasonably well for holding aggro for multiple mobs, but is really the paladin's only method for generating AoE aggro.
Remember, as a paladin you must connect on hits to generate aggro. You have no shouts or taunts.
As far as the OP's original talent build, I would urge you to at least seriously consider spending 11 points in the holy tree to pick up Divine Favor + Illumination. This combo gives you (or your warrior ;) essentially an extra life for free. A guaranteed critical heal for no mana every two minutes. I'm not saying you have to get it, I'm just saying you really should consider it. You'll want this while soloing (remember that your DPS will be pretty anemic, you need staying power).
Also, if you're going to be tanking, I would not pass up deflection in the retribution tree. A parry is much better than a shield block (minus the fact that if you are burning your mana on holy shield for DPS you won't get the damage from a parry). Five points Deflection, for example, is 5% damage reduction. 5 points in Toughness might increase your armor value by 10%, but that probably won't amount to an additional 5% damage reduction.
Paladin Build - Tal - 02-03-2005
mjdoom,Feb 2 2005, 09:03 PM Wrote:If mobs do try to get away I have Seal of Fury and Hammer of Justice to try to slow them down. I also have Paladin abilities like Seal of Protection to use in a pinch and if absolutely necessary I can heal myself. As long as this paladin can hold aggro decently well I would think that survivability would be high and although pally dps is not the highest in the game, with the additional holy damage I would be dishing out I should be able to contribute to taking down any mob.
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You don't need to worry about survivability with a paladin and a grouped healer. A tip to make your life a little easier in regards to running mobs. Seal of Justice when judged prevents a mob from running. Open with seal of fury, switch to seal of justice and judge it at halfway of the mobs life then switch to fury or command as needed for the last half. It won't stop a mob from going after a more hated target but if you open with seal of fury you should have no trouble keeping aggro unless your party doesn't keep a check on their own skills.
Paladin Build - Artega - 02-03-2005
That still doesn't answer why you'd choose a Paladin over a Warrior if you want to tank to the best of your ability. It just seems like it'd be much more efficient to be a Warrior for tanking, especially if you aren't going to be healing.
Also, Deflection doesn't quite equal a five percent damage reduction. You can only Parry against mobs and players that attack from the front, not the back; if you're tanking, you're going to be taking a number of attacks from the back. You can't Parry spells, either :P Regardless, it's a significant boost to an extremely useful passive ability.
As a Fury/Arms Warrior, I very rarely need to use Taunt or Challenging Shout to get and keep aggro, but they're certainly very nice to have for when the #$%& hits the fan :)
Paladin Build - Tal - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 07:46 AM Wrote:I'm apparently missing something here, because I've always heard that Warriors are better than Paladins at generating and maintaining aggro. The only difference between the two seems to be the DPS difference, and the Paladin's ability to heal. It just seems that if you're pretty much ignoring your healing abilities, you'd be better off playing a Warrior :mellow:
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Think about this statement for a second. Mjdoom is building a "tank" paladin. He's making good use of the retribution and protection trees and only has so many talent points that he can use towards this goal. He still has the ability to heal when necessary but given that a properly played protection pally will be: a) pounded on by multiple targets and B) very little mana to cast heals with. Paladin heals are very long cast compared to other classes and are prolonged with every hit the paladin takes. Plus as he/she stands trying to heal a target there is a greater chance that he will lose aggro on some of the other mobs.
I view it the same way a defensive specc'd warrior views Berserker stance. An ability that is used situationally but not something I consider in regards to talents.
Paladin Build - Tal - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 11:29 AM Wrote:That still doesn't answer why you'd choose a Paladin over a Warrior if you want to tank to the best of your ability. It just seems like it'd be much more efficient to be a Warrior for tanking, especially if you aren't going to be healing.
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Here we go again down the tired min/max road. :rolleyes:
Its a personal choice to play a protection specc'd paladin but that doesn't preclude a paladin from healing as necessary.
Paladin Build - mjdoom - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 10:29 AM Wrote:That still doesn't answer why you'd choose a Paladin over a Warrior if you want to tank to the best of your ability. It just seems like it'd be much more efficient to be a Warrior for tanking, especially if you aren't going to be healing.
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If a pally can closely approximate a Warrior's tanking ability he has a few advantages. He can heal in a tight spot; and also, if things go south he has a higher chance of being able to survive and rez the entire group.
That being said, I'm not necessarily saying a pally is a better tank than a warrior. On the contrary, I'm fairly certain for pure tanking a well played warrior will be superior. I'm just saying I think it might be fun to play a pally tank and see how it can do. I have dreams of a good high level shield and Blessing of Sanctuary reducing damage by a significant amount and allowing me to take a lot of damage (and being nigh invincible against lower level mobs). A dream it may be, but it still sounds like fun. I can find another class if I want to be a dps monkey. :D
As to another comment in this thread. One reason why I skipped parry is because a parry will decrease my proc rates on a few things like Retribution Aura and the Holy Shield. By taking the points in something like defense instead it still reduces my damage from every hit (which I will be taking many) while allowing things to proc more often.
I'm still not really certain how +defense works but it seems to have a correlation to level, that is defense goes up by 5 each level and in order to get max effectiveness you want to keep it close to max. Even though some calculations are based on relative levels it seems to me like an extra +5 defense is like being one level higher for all "defense" calculations. Along with some items that increase defense this seems like it might be a useful addition to aid in damage reduction.
- mjdoom
Paladin Build - Sword_of_Doom - 02-03-2005
"I'm apparently missing something here, because I've always heard that Warriors are better than Paladins at generating and maintaining aggro. The only difference between the two seems to be the DPS difference, and the Paladin's ability to heal. It just seems that if you're pretty much ignoring your healing abilities, you'd be better off playing a Warrior "
This is the same argument i get in game from high level Warriors. "You are nothing more than a heal bot, please do not waste your time and energy tanking. You suck at it anyways and you must always heal me. " When said Warrior dies its the ?!*& Paladin's fault. Paladin's can tank, not well and usually should not alone, and IMHO take up far less of the Priest's time in a group. When i party with Warrior's i always survive, they die, and they are always unhappy about it. I have never seen a class so dependant on healers in the end game, i feel sorry for the Warrior. Paladin's no doubt are a tricky class to play and in the endgame more challenging for tanking than the Warrior. Ideally i would agree that it is not natural for the Paladin to be main tank but it is possible within the game so why not? Definitely maintaining aggro is by far more difficult for a Paladin than Warrior but i enjoy the challenge of it.
Paladin Build - mjdoom - 02-03-2005
vor_lord,Feb 3 2005, 10:14 AM Wrote:As far as the OP's original talent build, I would urge you to at least seriously consider spending 11 points in the holy tree to pick up Divine Favor + Illumination. This combo gives you (or your warrior ;) essentially an extra life for free. A guaranteed critical heal for no mana every two minutes. I'm not saying you have to get it, I'm just saying you really should consider it. You'll want this while soloing (remember that your DPS will be pretty anemic, you need staying power).
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The problem with this is the number of talent points I have to distribute. If I do this it means I have to abandon Conviction and Holy Shield and probably Blessing of Salvation too (if I want to keep Consecration which is one of my aoe "taunts"). Note that I could still make bombs as an engineer, but their cost is many times over that of a Consecration because they cost cold cash instead of a few mana (useful sometimes, wasteful others). I would still have my Divine Protection/heal combo and Lay on Hands in a serious pinch. If I am smart about pulling my high defense should minimize these situations such that the one hour cooldown on Lay on Hands should not become an issue often.
Another thought I just had was on the comment of anemic DPS. I currently play a priest who has only minimal Shadow Spec (the only notable shadow spell I have is Mind Flay, improved SW:P has some use but isn't huge) and my DPS is pretty poor. I am used to taking 30 seconds plus to kill a mob and I can do it fairly effectively when I am smart about pulling. It seems to me that the DPS with this character can't possibly be that much less than my current priest but I will be wearing mail/plate and taking a lot less damage along the way. Sure I won't have my bubble to protect me for a few damage, but that damage will hopefully be reduced/blocked to the point where it is not a problem.
- mjdoom
Paladin Build - vor_lord - 02-03-2005
mjdoom,Feb 3 2005, 10:45 AM Wrote:As to another comment in this thread. One reason why I skipped parry is because a parry will decrease my proc rates on a few things like Retribution Aura and the Holy Shield. By taking the points in something like defense instead it still reduces my damage from every hit (which I will be taking many) while allowing things to proc more often.
Now there's an interesting question--for block/dodge/parry checks, what order are they done in? This hadn't occurred to me as a disadvantage of parry (however holy shield and consecration are big mana suckers, can you afford to use both, or would it be a situational choice?)
Defense, however, is used for some of these checks, isn't it?
mjdoom,Feb 3 2005, 10:45 AM Wrote:The problem with this is the number of talent points I have to distribute.
You should still be able to get HS and consecration (aren't they both 21 point investments?), but you would probably have to give up some more DPS (and hence some aggro) to do so.
I like your build idea though, it is something different.
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 10:45 AM Wrote:Also, Deflection doesn't quite equal a five percent damage reduction. You can only Parry against mobs and players that attack from the front, not the back; if you're tanking, you're going to be taking a number of attacks from the back. You can't Parry spells, either tongue.gif Regardless, it's a significant boost to an extremely useful passive ability.
What!?? Mobs parry me when I'm behind them all the time!
(of course, that's just due to client/server lag :rolleyes: )
Seriously, though, that is a good point when tanking multiple mobs.
Paladin Build - mjdoom - 02-03-2005
vor_lord,Feb 3 2005, 01:54 PM Wrote:(however holy shield and consecration are big mana suckers, can you afford to use both, or would it be a situational choice?)
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This is an interesting point and something I have thought a bit about. How does mana flow work for a high level paladin? It seems to me like you are going to be burst casting as opposed to constantly casting so there will be some (short) periods of mana regen during a battle where you are only attacking and not actively casting spells. Might it make sense to actually carry some +spirit gear (as opposed to as much +int) for a paladin in this build? That way you can max your regen during those casting downtimes and be ready to fire that next consecration when necessary. As for Holy Shield, I would expect to use that a bit more situationally so it might not be as much of a drain. If mana is low that would be prime time for me to hit one of my bombs...
The other thought I had with this build was trying to go for some +agility instead of as much +strength. This can increase my chance of proccing my Vengeance (through the crit) and might increase my overall dps. The question is what kind of crit rates can reasonably be acquired at high levels. If I push for +agility it might be possible to get rates approaching those of hunters so I ask them for more input. If I can get my crit rate up to even 10% with a decent speed weapon (2.0 or so) that would mean I can probably keep my Vengeance up about 50% of the time. This seems like it might be very useful but more feedback on reasonable crit rates would be nice.
The other interesting thing is if I look for +spirit and +agility on Plate and lower level (<40) mail I would think it does not have particularly high value. This might make equipping my paladin cheaper and easier in the long run.
Of course now I'm starting to wonder how much I'm off my rocker or if this variant/build would indeed be a force in his own way.
- mjdoom
Paladin Build - Mavfin - 02-04-2005
Artega,Feb 3 2005, 10:29 AM Wrote:That still doesn't answer why you'd choose a Paladin over a Warrior if you want to tank to the best of your ability. It just seems like it'd be much more efficient to be a Warrior for tanking, especially if you aren't going to be healing.
[snip]
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Artega, *please* remember that he's probably building this less efficient build *BECAUSE HE WANTS TO*. Not everyone min/maxes their builds. I don't. Please remember that when posting.
Paladin Build - Rinnhart - 02-07-2005
A couple quick things:
The complete lack of Spiritual Focus cannot be underplayed. You will find it extremely difficult to heal yourself or others while tanking without some investment in this talent. In a perfect world, you'd never need to heal, but the world ain't perfect.
It's my humble opinion that you should trade some of your protection talents for anticipation and deflection. Blessing of Sanctuary seems like a great ability, at first glance, problem is how it stacks towards the mitigation cap. There's a specific minimum hit from all monsters. They will almost never hit below that set figure. With gear and devotion, I was hitting that magic value in the thirties. Blessing of Sanctuary's addition did not warrant the loss of BoM or BoW (and in single paladin parties, others will generally prefer either BoM or BoW).
Also, unless you play with guildies or friends who appreciate your desire to tank, you may find yourself pushed to the side in favor of warriors. They are the superior tank, paladins are the superior support class; most people realize this when attempting higher level dungeons.
Paladin Build - ArtegaAwayFromHome - 02-08-2005
Rinnhart,Feb 7 2005, 05:26 PM Wrote:Also, unless you play with guildies or friends who appreciate your desire to tank, you may find yourself pushed to the side in favor of warriors. They are the superior tank, paladins are the superior support class; most people realize this when attempting higher level dungeons.
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If you can find Alliance Warriors, anyway :P
Seems everyone prefers Paladins to Warriors, juding from the Paladin-to-Warrior ratio on our server :)