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Warrior Build - mjdoom - 03-02-2005

I realize this information is already on the boards but it is buried in the hunter thread on the crossroads and I'm not sure what kind of response it might generate there. This seems like a more appropriate forum.

My warrior has now hit level 32 and I've come up with a build idea for making a solid tank for the upper levels. Considering this is the farthest I have ever taken a tank class I am very open to suggestions though. There has been a bunch of talk lately about fury and arms for warriors and just mentioning going small chunks into Protection for certain skills. The opinions on which of these skills are particularly useful seem to vary though.

My current build plan looks like this:

Arms:
Deflection -5
Tactical Mastery - 3

Fury:
Cruelty - 5
Unbridled Wrath - 4
Improved Demoralizing Shout

<Future Points>
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 4 (to max)
Unbridled Wrath - 1 (to max)
Piercing Howl

Protection:
Anticipation - 5

<Future Points>
Shield Specialization - 5
Toughness - 5
Improved Shield Block - 3
Improved Revenge - 3
Improved Taunt - 2
Improved Sunder - 3

I'm currently putting all of my points toward getting piercing howl, then going to drop the last one into Unbridled Wrath and then build up my Protection spec as I keep hitting higher level instances. By going the way I have my warrior has been a solid soloer and with the help of my main has had decent equipment such that I can stand up to a lot with just a healer to back me up (although taking on more than 10 gnolls at once didn't quite work out :P )

One skill that I've seen mentioned a bunch is Improved Bloodrage->Last Stand. I originally thought of getting this but in the end I decided that things like Imp. Taunt and Imp. Sunder would probably be more useful. I honestly don't use Bloodrage very often and my rage generation is still reasonable. I can't stand heroic strike and slam so without using those I don't need as much rage either. With my 3 points in Tactical Mastery I have enough to get an execute off if I'm switching from Defense->Battle Stance. Last stand seems like it could be useful in a few situations, but it seems like that point could be better spent elsewhere and solid group play will minimize where I might have used Last Stand anyway. In my experience times When Things Go Wrong ™ things usually really go wrong and Last Stand might not save us anyway.

Still, my experience with tanking at the high end is nonexistent. I only have experience healing tanks and that's certainly not the same thing. Any comments or criticisms are welcome. Even if you want to say that I'm an idiot and should be going arms/fury or something I still welcome the ideas if you have reasons to back them up. Note that I am on a PvE server so PvPing is not as big of a consideration (although I certainly enjoy some PvP from time to time).

- mjdoom


Warrior Build - Boutros - 03-02-2005

mjdoom,Mar 2 2005, 11:29 AM Wrote:I realize this information is already on the boards but it is buried in the hunter thread on the crossroads and I'm not sure what kind of response it might generate there.&nbsp; This seems like a more appropriate forum.

My warrior has now hit level 32 and I've come up with a build idea for making a solid tank for the upper levels.&nbsp; Considering this is the farthest I have ever taken a tank class I am very open to suggestions though.&nbsp; There has been a bunch of talk lately about fury and arms for warriors and just mentioning going small chunks into Protection for certain skills.&nbsp; The opinions on which of these skills are particularly useful seem to vary though.

My current build plan looks like this:

Arms:
Deflection -5
Tactical Mastery - 3

Fury:
Cruelty - 5
Unbridled Wrath - 4
Improved Demoralizing Shout

<Future Points>
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 4 (to max)
Unbridled Wrath - 1 (to max)
Piercing Howl

Protection:
Anticipation - 5

<Future Points>
Shield Specialization - 5
Toughness - 5
Improved Shield Block - 3
Improved Revenge - 3
Improved Taunt - 2
Improved Sunder - 3

I'm currently putting all of my points toward getting piercing howl, then going to drop the last one into Unbridled Wrath and then build up my Protection spec as I keep hitting higher level instances.&nbsp; By going the way I have my warrior has been a solid soloer and with the help of my main has had decent equipment such that I can stand up to a lot with just a healer to back me up (although taking on more than 10 gnolls at once didn't quite work out&nbsp; :P )

One skill that I've seen mentioned a bunch is Improved Bloodrage->Last Stand.&nbsp; I originally thought of getting this but in the end I decided that things like Imp. Taunt and Imp. Sunder would probably be more useful.&nbsp; I honestly don't use Bloodrage very often and my rage generation is still reasonable.&nbsp; I can't stand heroic strike and slam so without using those I don't need as much rage either.&nbsp; With my 3 points in Tactical Mastery I have enough to get an execute off if I'm switching from Defense->Battle Stance.&nbsp; Last stand seems like it could be useful in a few situations, but it seems like that point could be better spent elsewhere and solid group play will minimize where I might have used Last Stand anyway.&nbsp; In my experience times When Things Go Wrong ™ things usually really go wrong and Last Stand might not save us anyway.

Still, my experience with tanking at the high end is nonexistent.&nbsp; I only have experience healing tanks and that's certainly not the same thing.&nbsp; Any comments or criticisms are welcome.&nbsp; Even if you want to say that I'm an idiot and should be going arms/fury or something I still welcome the ideas if you have reasons to back them up.&nbsp; Note that I am on a PvE server so PvPing is not as big of a consideration (although I certainly enjoy some PvP from time to time).

- mjdoom
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Though I am a firm believer in Arms/Fury I think I can give your build a fair evaluation. First, I think 3 in Tactical Mastery will probably be enough since you don't use improved charge. You won't have enough rage to get a whirlwind off, which is frequently nice, but as long as you let off a demoralizing shout before you switch to defensive stance you won't be wasting rage.

I can take no issue with getting piercing howl, it is amazingly useful both while tanking and soloing. But, I have never really been sold on Unbridled Wrath. It might be a noticable difference, especially if you use a quick weapon (not Thrash Blade) and really it's a matter of opportunity cost, you probably aren't losing a lot of amazing options by taking it, since it's really the only way to improve rage generation.

You are only using 50 talent points, so I assume you meant to put your last point in concussion blow. If not, you should. Though you aren't going to be using it much in molten core or any such thing it's still one of the best talents in the tree. I do take issue with two things in this tree. First, putting more than one point in improved shield block is a questionable investment. Kalgan himself admitted as much. You don't gain any extra blocks for points beyond the first, you just go from getting 2 blocks in 5.5 seconds to 2 blocks in 7 seconds. Another questionable investment is anticipation. When there exist items that grant more than twice the bonus of the 5 talent point investment in anticipation, I begin to believe the talent sucks. No item grants 10% parry or 10% increased chance to crit, so +10 to defense seems to really not be worth 5 talent points, simply as a matter of opportunity cost. If you were to take 2 points out of improved shield block and 5 out of anticipation you could get 2 improved bloodrage, 1 last stand, max out tactical mastery, and put 2 points in improved shield bash. Or you could do a number of other things with those points, and nearly all of them could be more useful.

With a few modifications I think this is a fine build. You really get the best tanking skills out of each tree with a build like this, and you should be at least slightly more efficient than a 31/20 or 31/5/15.

Warrior Build - Artega - 03-02-2005

I agree with Boutros. You're missing out on a lot by spending points on Anticipation and maxing shield block.

I'd suggest snagging Anger Management if possible; it's a viable alternative to UW for rage generation, and together, they make a very efficient method of generating rage.

Warrior Build - mjdoom - 03-03-2005

Note: This post got really long as I wrote it, just as a fair warning :whistling:

Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:You are only using 50 talent points, so I assume you meant to put your last point in concussion blow. If not, you should.
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Yes, that is where the last point was supposed to go, somehow it got lost in me recopying information a few times.

Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:First, putting more than one point in improved shield block is a questionable investment. Kalgan himself admitted as much. You don't gain any extra blocks for points beyond the first, you just go from getting 2 blocks in 5.5 seconds to 2 blocks in 7 seconds.

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This argument took about a millisecond to sway me. This is my second char I have played extensively and I have seen a lot of the end game instances (haven't hit raids like Onyxia or MC yet though) and it seems that you are highly likely to expend those two blocks in the first 5.5 seconds anyway, especially considering that you will have multiple mobs beating on you. Two more points to work with :)

Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:Another questionable investment is anticipation. When there exist items that grant more than twice the bonus of the 5 talent point investment in anticipation, I begin to believe the talent sucks. No item grants 10% parry or 10% increased chance to crit, so +10 to defense seems to really not be worth 5 talent points, simply as a matter of opportunity cost.

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Minor nit first, talents can only give you +5% parry or crit, still the point is taken. I'll have to admit I'm not as well versed in high level plate items as I am in cloth but my intuition says that if I get those items that give me +defense (which I know can blow anticipation out of the water) I will lose some stamina and agility or strength in exchange. I still see your point though.

Knowing this information tells me that I definitely have two more points I can redistribute and possibly up to 7. My gut reaction is that I should reallocate all 7 as the benefit of anticipation might not be as much as I first anticipated (I looked at it as a way to be on "equal" footing with those level 62 elites in the end game). There are a few options I see but I'm not really sure about them...

1.) You mention going for Last Stand and Improved Shield Bash.

I'm still having trouble seeing exactly where I am going to use last stand a lot (probably my inexperience) It seems to me like this would most often be used if you are losing hps a bit quickly (or got unlucky with a string of critical hits) and you want to buy your healer more time to heal you. Because the benefit is temporary and goes away after the 20 seconds is up you must be healed in that time or you are going down. I can understand that sometimes that 20 seconds can buy enough time for the party to recover from When Things Go Wrong ™ and that if you use it in a situation where you are not dangerously low on life it will probably amount to "no harm no foul" but I'm not sure exactly how useful it would be. One of you high level warriors must have some insight into how to use this skill effectively and I'd really love to hear it. If I can understand how to use it properly I could be very easily swayed to pick it up.

Imp. Shield Bash is also a bit questionable to me but again it might be an experience thing. Thus far I have run into few enemies who cast from multiple schools of magic. Due to this fact a simple shield bash is usually enough to shut them up for a few seconds while I lay the smackdown on them. If they are lucky they get one spell off before I bash them again. This combined with concussion blow (and potentially pummel) would lead me to believe that in controlled situations casters are certainly manageable. I see two potential issues:

- Later casters more commonly cast from multiple schools of magic so a complete silence is worthwhile.

- Casters have more instant cast spells that I haven't dealt extensively with yet and by the nature of regular shield bash these are almost unstoppable. Still I think this point is lessened if those instant cast spells are in the same school of magic as their longer cast spells unless the mob mostly or exclusively casts instants.

Once again I could be easily convinced, but I haven't seen the smoking gun yet.

2.) Artega mentioned in his post going for Anger Management. At first this looks like an excellent skill to me. It will keep me from losing too much of my rage between battles which should help with reducing downtime. Now that quick bandage between fights will not result in as much lost rage so I can keep moving. Two points with this:

- When I am soloing Execute is a nice way to finish mobs. This clears my rage pool anyway so Anger Management is going to waste.

- I don't tend to zerg instances as much. I tend to play with groups that move slower and use large amounts of crowd control. I simply don't have enough experience to know if this downtime is high enough that I will lose enough rage even with Anger Management that it is not worth it.

As long as I am in combat rage decay is barely noticable (does it even decay?) so blasting through lower level mobs minimizes effectiveness of AM as well because I'm mostly in combat and it's not doing anything. I also tend to end battles with relatively low rage even if I dont' finish with execute. I don't tend to save rage (other than in special circumstances), I tend to use it to finish mobs as quickly as possible. It looks like AM would be really useful for certain playstyles but mine might not be one of them.

3.) Get some combination of Improved Shield Wall and 1h weapon specialization. It seems like Shield Wall is the "super skill" for a tank (as opposed to Retaliation which is on the same timer [does anything else use that same timer?]) I know it has a long cooldown, but this seems like a better emergency skill than Last Stand, even if you can only use it 1/6th as often. With an extra 5 seconds I can take a large beating for about 15 seconds and hopefully provide some relief for my healer. This in combo with a potion can buy my healer a decent amount of time to recover from a messy situation. By ignoring both Last Stand and Anger Management I can put the 2 into Shield Wall and the rest into 1h WS. I'm also then in a situation where I can freely move points between 1h WS and Unbridled Wrath and maybe I can find a good balance there.

4.) If I decide Last Stand or Anger Management aren't worthwhile drop a few points into Improved Cleave. It seems like Imp. Cleave might help when fighting multiple mobs (watch for polys and the like) and might help my damage output. This is a slightly higher rage skill though and at maxed Cleave and Imp. Cleave it looks like it will only add around 30 damage (to each target). Seems like it might have a use but I'm not sure. Going any farther into the Fury tree looks like it would require a heavier Fury commitment which is not what I am looking for.

5.) Deep Wounds looks like it could be a nice way to improve my dps but I have one question and see one big drawback. The first question is whether DW is calculated based on only your base weapon damage or is it based on your modified (+AP, etc.) damage. If it is the latter it might be worth looking at. The big negative is I have to "burn" 3 points in improved Rend. This seems like a terrible waste and is why I don't think this is a great option. Still, if DW works on your modified damage (and because I'm thinking of looking for stam and then agility on equipment which should help with crit rates) it might be an option.

--------------

The multitude of options I've placed here obviously leave a few permutations of talent points in the middle. Especially regarding whether I am convinced on LS/AM/ISB. If any points somehow end up "left over" I might just drop them back into anticipation again (it certainly can't hurt) or if I'm not convinced on ISB I could put a few points into anticipation just to get a high enough Protection total to get to 1h WS and still get some utility from those points.

This turned into an excessively long post but I hope a few of you with high level warriors (Boutros, Artega, Olon, etc.) can give me some insight. I'm certainly not against rerolling my talents as it only costs me some gold, but I'd also like to have a good idea of what I want to do instead of just rerolling constantly to hit the right balance. Thanks a lot for bearing with me and for any help you can provide.

- mjdoom

Warrior Build - Boutros - 03-03-2005

mjdoom,Mar 2 2005, 03:15 PM Wrote:Minor nit first, talents can only give you +5% parry or crit, still the point is taken.&nbsp; I'll have to admit I'm not as well versed in high level plate items as I am in cloth but my intuition says that if I get those items that give me +defense (which I know can blow anticipation out of the water) I will lose some stamina and agility or strength in exchange.&nbsp; I still see your point though.
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I was simply unclear. I know that Deflection and Cruelty give 5% bonuses, I was commenting that in order for an item to give double the bonus of a full investment in those skills it would have to give +10% crit or parry. And no items give more than +2% chance to crit or parry, whereas items like Legplates of the Eternal Guardian and Deathbone Chestplate give double the defense of the full Anticipation bonus and even moderately powerful items like Helm of The Mountian and Stoneform Shoulders give as much or more defense than 5 talent points.

I'll admit that Last Stand is not an amazing skill, but Improved Blood Rage is pretty good, and Last Stand is only one point for some potential utility. Back when I was defensive speced it saved my life a couple of times.

My encounters with casters using multiple spell types has been different from yours. For a couple of levels I fought the Dunemaul Ogres in Tanaris for both experience and insane mageweave drops. My par for the meleers was 30 seconds and 15% of my life, but for the casters I could expect 15 seconds and maybe 10% of my life (but with greater variance) if I did everything right, but usually immediately after I pummeled a shadow spell they would cast a fire spell, or vice versa. If my pummel had a silence component the standard deviation of my life loss would go down and my average downtime would decrease too. Those aren't the only casters who use multiple schools, just off the top of my head the Deadwood Furbolgs cast Nature and Shadow, the Jaedenar Cultists and Bloodsail casters cast Shadow and Fire, some of the Scarlet casters cast Holy and Fire. I'm not sure that's a smoking gun but I feel there is utility there. Further, if silenced the caster will have no choice but to melee, ensuring that you could lead a caster back to a safe area during a pull.

I feel that Anger Management is pretty weak. Despite having 31 points in the arms tree I still managed to skip this skill. While it does give a tiny amount of rage over time while in combat I didn't find it noticeable, and I always execute or refresh Battle Shout after a solo fight, or finish a fight with no rage left while grouping.

Another place you could think about putting points is a couple staples of the Arms tree, Improved Charge and Overpower. Even while tanking I can't resist switching to battle stance for a quick overpower and virtually guaranteed crit if I see "Dodge". And really the additional 6 rage all at once can make a significant difference in how a fight progresses ( you can almost always swap stances and whirlwind right away, and I can usually Moral Strike 3.2 seconds earlier).

Really you have a lot of options, I think the core of your build, Concussion Blow Tactical Mastery and Piercing Howl is strong, and the rest could go a lot of differet places and improve your offence of further strengthen your defense.

I can't answer your Deep Wounds question right now, but I can do some testing on that. But I think most Arms Warriors get it for two reason: 1. Having two dots on a rogue makes it impossible for them to Vanish and Cheapshot no matter how good their timing 2. it's a prerequisite for the very nice Impale talent.

Warrior Build - Boutros - 03-03-2005

mjdoom,Mar 2 2005, 03:15 PM Wrote:5.) Deep Wounds looks like it could be a nice way to improve my dps but I have one question and see one big drawback.&nbsp; The first question is whether DW is calculated based on only your base weapon damage or is it based on your modified (+AP, etc.) damage.&nbsp; If it is the latter it might be worth looking at.&nbsp; The big negative is I have to "burn" 3 points in improved Rend.&nbsp; This seems like a terrible waste and is why I don't think this is a great option.&nbsp; Still, if DW works on your modified damage (and because I'm thinking of looking for stam and then agility on equipment which should help with crit rates) it might be an option.
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I checked it out, and here's the deal: Deep Wounds factors in attack power bonus and ignores armor. A maxed deep wounds will do exactly 60% of your average damage listed on your character sheet. Of course it still can't crit and would ignore any +crit damage bonuses.

Warrior Build - Malakar - 03-03-2005

To Mjdoom: Anger Management provides passive rage generation at all times, which acts as the skill description out of combat, but also acts as extra rage generation in combat. It's about 7 rage per 20 seconds.

Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 09:11 PM Wrote:I feel that Anger Management is pretty weak. Despite having 31 points in the arms tree I still managed to skip this skill. While it does give a tiny amount of rage over time while in combat I didn't find it noticeable, and I always execute or refresh Battle Shout after a solo fight, or finish a fight with no rage left while grouping.
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No, nothing spectacular. But compared to one point of Improved Charge it gives you more rage. Even if you kill things by the time your charge is ready again, that's 15 seconds, so you get 50% more rage from AM. It'll probably be longer than that, too. The drawback is that you don't get it at the start of the fight. It has some other benefits though, like generating rage while you're stunned.

Warrior Build - Artega - 03-03-2005

From what I understand, AM is simply a -20% to rage decay in all states. Out of combat, this would be 100% decay, or 80% modified. In combat, it would be 0% decay, or -20% modified. Thus, you're gaining Rage from Rage "decay".

I'd STRONGLY advise against Improved Charge. Charge is useful, but those two points would be MUCH better spent in Improved Overpower, Improved Execute, Improved Intercept, or Improved Berserker Rage.

Improved Charge means you spend two TPs on a skill that (I think, anyway) is somewhat bugged. It also has a painful range factor (making it hard to use in cramped spaces), and it also has that niggling 15 second cooldown, in the event that you're butchering mobs faster than you're charging them.

Warrior Build - mjdoom - 03-03-2005

Malakar,Mar 3 2005, 11:00 AM Wrote:To Mjdoom: Anger Management provides passive rage generation at all times, which acts as the skill description out of combat, but also acts as extra rage generation in combat. It's about 7 rage per 20 seconds.

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This is interesting. Is this considered a bug (the numbers that Artega gives seem reasonable as to how it would work). I suppose it's easy enough to reroll your talents if Blizzard decides this is a bug and fixes it but this makes the skill seem many times more useful. This would make it more efficient than unbridled wrath on the average and not susceptible to the streakiness of a random number generator.

With a generic 3.0 second weapon Unbridled Wrath would average 3-4 rage generated per 20 seconds if my calculations are correct. This would only go up to 4 on average with a 2 second weapon and go down with a slow 2her. If 7 per 20 seconds is true for AM that gives about twice the rage generation along with the added bonus of slower rage decay outside of combat. Considering that I have to put 5 points into Imp. Demo Shout to get piercing howl this might suggest that avoiding Unbridled Wrath in favor of Anger Management would be far superior. Is this how it works out or am I missing some part of the equation?

- mjdoom

Warrior Build - bkelly1984 - 03-04-2005

mjdoom,Mar 2 2005, 01:29 PM Wrote:My warrior has now hit level 32 and I've come up with a build idea for making a solid tank for the upper levels.
Hi mjdoom,

I was glad to see your post. I have a level 44 warrior on Feathermoon that I'm planning to re-spec but I've not found good discussion for a non-arms/fury build. Like you, I'm pretty long on theory and short on experience so positive feedback is most welcome.

I'm not so much looking to make a “solid tank” as a standing fortress. I mostly play in groups and plan to spend much of the next 16 levels in instances. I always carry a shield, I take my duties as a tank very seriously, and I want to be the first person my squishy friends think of when going to Maraudon. With that in mind, here's the allocation I'm considering:

Protection Tree -
5 Shield Specialization - Increases your chance to block attacks with a shield by 5%.
5 Anticipation - Increases your Defense skill by 10.
5 Toughness - Increases your armor value from items by 10%.
1 Iron Will - Increases your chance to resist stun and charm effects by 3%.
1 Improved Shield Block - Allows your Shield Block ability to block an additional attack, and increases the duration by 0.5 seconds.
3 Improved Revenge - Gives your Revenge ability a 40% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.
5 Defiance - Increases the threat generated by your attacks by 15% while in Defensive Stance.
2 Improved Taunt - Reduces the cool down of your Taunt ability by 2 seconds.
2 Improved Shield Bash - Gives your Shield Bash ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 3 seconds.
1 Concussion Blow - A brutal strike that deals weapon damage and stuns the opponent for 5 seconds.
1 Shield Discipline - While active, increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 50% and increases the damage done by your Shield Bash ability by 200%. Lasts 20 seconds.

Arms Tree -
4 Deflection - Increases your Parry chance by 4%.

With the next 10 points going to in this order -
1 More Deflection - Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
5 Tactical Mastery - You retain up to 25 of your rage points when you change stances.
4 More in Iron Will - Increases your chance to resist stun and charm effects by 15%.

I think the build is fairly straightforward- focus on talents that reduce damage and increase aggro. There are another six points to allocated, and I'm still pretty up in the air about where they go. I'd appreciate input, but to help you understand where I'm going, let me comment on a few of my choices:

Anticipation – My original build didn't use this skill thinking it wouldn't be very helpful as I level and at level 60, but I'm reconsidering. Monsters three of four levels above me seem to have a large ramp-up in the damage they can do to me. I believe another 10 points would move that flood of damage a couple of levels higher. This would be good as I frequently tank something 3 levels above me, but seldom something 5+. Boutros may have a point getting this advantage cheaper through equipment choices, but I have not yet seen this. Also, I wonder how much better I could take a level 62 elite at level 60 with Anticipation and equipment boosting my defense four or five levels above normal. Anyone have experience doing this?

Improved Revenge – I have found revenge to be an invaluable in my aggro quest. Taunt will get their attention, but revenge keeps it. If the stun doesn't add additional aggro, it will reduce the pounding I will take. Plus, I really wanted Concussion Blow.

Improved Shield Bash – I don't know how much difference a 3 second silence is going to make myself. It should help, but I mainly took this as a Shield Discipline prerequisite.

But what I think is going to be more interesting for this discussion is my thoughts on why I didn't pick certain skills or have at least put them off. Please feel free to respond with constructive criticism and any negativity should be deposited at the bottom of Scholomance.

Improved Bloodrage – I constantly use Bloodrage to gain aggro. If I have no rage and need to pull a monster, I'll Bloodrage, wait for 10 rage to build, activate a Shield Block, taunt the beast and then use Revenge as soon as it becomes available. With normal Bloodrage, I can Shield Block five seconds after activating Bloodrage. If I put two points into Improved Bloodrage, I could Shield Block two seconds sooner or three seconds after starting my Bloodrage (not considering combat rage generation). I don't imagine there will be a lot of cases where my party member can take three seconds of punishment, but not five. When things go wrong and this is a concern, I should be short-circuiting this cycle and use a rage potion instead. I've passed it over for now thinking it is much better suited for an offensive warrior looking to kill sooner.

Last Stand – This looks like a terrific skill when soloing. A short burst of energy like this can easily make the difference in battle or aid a getaway. However, in a group I would say 90% of the times I die in groups because too many monsters were aggroed and the party gets dog piled. In most of these cases, 30% more health could help you escape, but it will seldom bring the group a victory. In instance, the skill would help even less since monsters never give up the chase. I can't shake the feeling that for my character, this skill would only delay the inevitable.

Improved Sunder Armor – As a tank, I use Sunder Armor a lot as it does a great job of gaining and keeping aggro, however, I am not certain that sundering more armor generates significantly more aggro. In fact, I'm concerned that a bigger sunder could reduce my ability to hold aggro since the hunters and rogues can inflict more damage. I agree that increasing the damage of my companions means I take less damage, and I will continue to sunder the armor of the creatures I face, but I would rather use my talent points on a skill that would reduce the damage done to me without increasing my team's aggro-per-second.

Improved Shield Wall – I do like Shield Wall and use it in tough situations, but I think it's a skill better suited for soloing like Last Stand for the same reasons as I mentioned. However, I also passed it over because of Shield Wall's 30 minute cool down. Since I can't use the skill very often, I wouldn't be able to put the talents to work very much. Even though I believe the extra second and a half I could get with Shield Block by adding two more points is much less likely to be of use, I would invest there first since the talent will be used so much more.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (and other damage enhancing skills) – Let me start off by pointing out that the focus of my build is reduction of the damage I take and holding aggro. Since dishing out the damage is not on the list, I skipped over this skill. However I am sure someone will point out that that more damage equals more aggro as well as more damage generates more rage which equals more aggro. Both are true, but I wonder if this slot will give me the best aggro per talent point. For aggro generated directly from damage, I think this skill makes little difference because a defensive stanced warrior with a one handed weapon will never beat a rogue or mage in generating damage aggro. Instead, a warrior must use taunts, revenges, shouts and stuns to draw a monster's attention. Increasing damage to generate aggro seems like backing a losing horse. Now, increasing damage to generate more rage to taunt, revenge, shout and stun seems like a much better idea, but I wonder if I would get a better return on my talent investment going with Anger Management.

Improved Demoralizing Shout – I constantly use Demoralizing Shout as it reduces my damage and adds aggro to all monsters nearby. If this skill didn't have a five fury point prerequisite, I would probably take it.

Piercing Howl – This skill was my largest dilemma. The group I play in has problem with runners and an area of effect daze would help immensely. Plus another group aggro skill is always welcome. However, it's in the third level of the fury tree, and it would be expensive. I had already decided that Improved Demoralizing Shout was not worth another five points into either Booming Voice or Cruelty. Was Demoralizing Shout and Piercing Howl the best option? For now, I've decided it would be better to put five points into Tactical Mastery, which won't be as convenient but should be much more flexible. I can still get group aggro with Demoralizing, Battle Shout and now even Thunderclap, those six extra talent points can buy me more defense and it would still be possible to switch stances and hamstring.

Anger Management – I may still take this skill, but I passed on it since my group and I play on the slow side. If that changes, I'll drop a point here. But I'm also seeing a post from Malakar in this thread that seem to say a warrior in combat with Anger Management will gain rage while doing nothing. If this is true, I will pick up this skill ASAP as it would be like a constant running Bloodrage at one-third the strength. Can someone else confirm this?

I see this advice does clash with some you have received so far, and I think the difference could be an offensive vs. a defensive frame of mind. We'll see what the other warriors think.

Best of luck on the new build!

Brian

Warrior Build - Malakar - 03-05-2005

bkelly1984,Mar 4 2005, 06:19 PM Wrote:Improved Bloodrage – I constantly use Bloodrage to gain aggro.&nbsp; If I have no rage and need to pull a monster, I'll Bloodrage, wait for 10 rage to build, activate a Shield Block, taunt the beast and then use Revenge as soon as it becomes available.&nbsp; With normal Bloodrage, I can Shield Block five seconds after activating Bloodrage.&nbsp; If I put two points into Improved Bloodrage, I could Shield Block two seconds sooner or three seconds after starting my Bloodrage (not considering combat rage generation).&nbsp; I don't imagine there will be a lot of cases where my party member can take three seconds of punishment, but not five.&nbsp; When things go wrong and this is a concern, I should be short-circuiting this cycle and use a rage potion instead.&nbsp; I've passed it over for now thinking it is much better suited for an offensive warrior looking to kill sooner.
It sounds like you're using a talent calc which still says improved bloodrage reduces the duration required for the effect. It was changed in a fairly recent patch to reduce hp cost by 50% with two points.



Quote:One-Handed Weapon Specialization (and other damage enhancing skills) – ...&nbsp; For aggro generated directly from damage, I think this skill makes little difference because a defensive stanced warrior with a one handed weapon will never beat a rogue or mage in generating damage aggro. ...
Of course you won't generate more aggro than a rogue or a mage from damage aggro, but this skill will help buy your taunts more time. It also stacks with the 5 points you already have in Defiance for 11.5% more aggro. It also has more effect when you use sunder armor which you say you use frequently.

Quote:Now, increasing damage to generate more rage to taunt, revenge, shout and stun seems like a much better idea, but I wonder if I would get a better return on my talent investment going with Anger Management.
You have 6 points left, you could stick one in AM and max 1h spec.


Quote:Anger Management – I may still take this skill, but I passed on it since my group and I play on the slow side.&nbsp; If that changes, I'll drop a point here.&nbsp; But I'm also seeing a post from Malakar in this thread that seem to say a warrior in combat with Anger Management will gain rage while doing nothing.&nbsp; If this is true, I will pick up this skill ASAP as it would be like a constant running Bloodrage at one-third the strength.&nbsp; Can someone else confirm this?
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I got that info from this thread (scroll up and start reading from Lemekim's first post). Shortly after I respec'd my warrior to MS, and picked up AM. You can indeed easily see that you get 23-24 rage from bloodrage.

Warrior Build - bkelly1984 - 03-07-2005

Malakar,Mar 5 2005, 07:39 AM Wrote:It sounds like you're using a talent calc which still says improved bloodrage reduces the duration required for the effect. It was changed in a fairly recent patch to reduce hp cost by 50% with two points.
Ah, right you are Malakar and losing 50% less health with Bloodrage would be very useful given my character's role. I need to reconsider this skill.

Malakar,Mar 5 2005, 07:39 AM Wrote:O...this skill will help buy your taunts more time. It also stacks with the 5 points you already have in Defiance for 11.5% more aggro.
Whoops, looks like my talent calculator is wrong again. I was thinking the damage increase was 1% per point.

I'm not sure what do you mean when you say more damage would “help buy your taunts more time”? Is there some effect beyond the six second duration or are you saying more damage = more rage = more taunts?

But I just noticed that Defiance specifically says it increases “threat generated by your attacks”. Does anyone know if this includes Revenge, Shield Blocks, Sunder Armor and shouts?

Malakar,Mar 5 2005, 07:39 AM Wrote:You have 6 points left, you could stick one in AM and max 1h spec.
True, but I was also considering improving Sunder Armor, Disarm or Shield Wall. You're also talking me into Bloodrage.

bkelly1984,Mar 4 2005, 06:19 PM Wrote:...I'm also seeing a post from Malakar in this thread that seem to say a warrior in combat with Anger Management will gain rage while doing nothing.
Malakar,Mar 5 2005, 07:39 AM Wrote:I got that info from this thread (scroll up and start reading from Lemekim's first post). Shortly after I respec'd my warrior to MS, and picked up AM. You can indeed easily see that you get 23-24 rage from bloodrage.
I am very surprised about this as the talent is quite specific, “Increases the time required for your rage to decay while out of combat by 30%”. Not only are you saying it is active in combat but its effect combines with the “no rage loss” effect during combat for a net rage gain. If this is the case, I would bet good money it's a bug.

Can you tell me about the test you ran showing you get 23-24 rage using Bloodrage? How was this done? Also, in your previous post, you said “Anger Management provides passive rage generation at all times” and not just during an active Bloodrage. Is this from a test where you gained rage while in combat without attacking, being attacked or using some other rage generator?

And I'm still a doubting Thomas. Can anyone else confirm Malakar's findings?

Brian

Warrior Build - Lord BEEF - 03-08-2005

The test for anger management is simple. Press the bloodrage button with no enemies nearby, watch your rage bar as it reaches 24 before declining. Bloodrage itself puts you in combat so anger management kicks in to give you free rage. It's probably not intended but it's pretty awesome as it stands and probably won't be fixed unless warriors are deemed 'overpowered'.

Don't doubt it. Spec it, and love it.

Warrior Build - Malakar - 03-09-2005

bkelly1984,Mar 7 2005, 04:47 PM Wrote:I'm not sure what do you mean when you say more damage would “help buy your taunts more time”?&nbsp; Is there some effect beyond the six second duration or are you saying more damage = more rage = more taunts?
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Bad wording on my part. I didn't mean the skill 'taunt' itself, but your other abilities like demo shout, that use rage to build aggro.

Warrior Build - Xanthix - 03-09-2005

Lord BEEF,Mar 8 2005, 01:56 PM Wrote:It's probably not intended but it's pretty awesome as it stands and probably won't be fixed unless warriors are deemed 'overpowered'.[right][snapback]70047[/snapback][/right]

Knock on wood my friend... Blizzard has shown that they will gladly apply nerfs to underpowered classes and buffs to overpowered ones. Sometimes in moderation to fix bugs, and sometimes not.

In the upcoming patch, there is speculation that Improved Sunder Armor no longer increases the armor reduction. This change comes out of the blue and Warriors are certainly not "overpowered" right now, so I wouldn't make any bets concerning Anger Management. Really Blizzard could change anything they want in the game and call it a bug fix.

Edit: Removed a comment saying Parry was made worse - I stand corrected.

Warrior Build - Treesh - 03-09-2005

Xanthix,Mar 8 2005, 08:04 PM Wrote:In the upcoming patch Parry is made harder to get, and there is speculation that Improved Sunder Armor no longer increases the armor reduction.
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Um, parry is now at level 8. The patch notes says it's going to be moved to level 6. How is that harder to get?

And it makes no sense to have three ranks if the rage reduction of 1/1/1 is replacing the armor reduction rather than being in addition to the armor reduction, but with how blizzard put it, yeah, that could be interpreted either way.

Warrior Build - playingtokrush - 03-09-2005

Treesh,Mar 8 2005, 09:18 PM Wrote:Um, parry is now at level 8.&nbsp; The patch notes says it's going to be moved to level 6.&nbsp; How is that harder to get?

And it makes no sense to have three ranks if the rage reduction of 1/1/1 is replacing the armor reduction rather than being in addition to the armor reduction, but with how blizzard put it, yeah, that could be interpreted either way.
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I interpreted both those changes as minor buffs and improvements, not nerfs, in addition to the rest of the warrior changes -- except of course for the puzzling increase in warrior training costs. That one's a big "huh?"

Warrior Build - Xanthix - 03-09-2005

Treesh,Mar 8 2005, 09:18 PM Wrote:Um, parry is now at level 8.&nbsp; The patch notes says it's going to be moved to level 6.&nbsp; How is that harder to get?

And it makes no sense to have three ranks if the rage reduction of 1/1/1 is replacing the armor reduction rather than being in addition to the armor reduction, but with how blizzard put it, yeah, that could be interpreted either way.
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I misread the Parry line, I thought it meant that the parry talent (Deflection) was moved up a tier. Apologies for this, I edited my post with a correction.

Regarding the Improved Sunder Armor change, the way many people are interpreting it is that 3 ranks of ISA will now give you -3 rage cost for SA, as opposed to the current armor reduction increase. Having all three talent points only reduce the cost by one doesn't seem to make sense, with or without the armor reduction increase. Certainly if Warriors get a rage reduction in addition to the armor reduction bonus, that will be great, making SA an even more essential skill. Only time will tell.

Warrior Build - playingtokrush - 03-09-2005

Xanthix,Mar 9 2005, 02:19 AM Wrote:Having all three talent points only reduce the cost by one doesn't seem to make sense[right][snapback]70097[/snapback][/right]
How doesn't it? The improved shield block talent adds only one extra block for one, two, or three talent points, with only a (arguably worthless) duration increase for the second and third talent points.

I'd think if it were being changed to reduce the rage cost by one per level, it would've appeared in the patch notes as "1/2/3," as that seems to be the more obvious way to denote that (like with Improved Heroic Strike).

Despite Blizzard's willingness to dole out nerfs to classes on the bottom of the heap, I'm almost positive that this is a minor but unquestionable improvement to Improved Sunder Armor.

Warrior Build - Artega - 03-10-2005

The changes to IAS are an improvement, not a nerf.

The increase to armor sundered was negligible at best, and when your main tank (who may have been using the talented version) goes down (and he WILL go down from time to time), the other tanks can't use Sunder to help grab aggro, since the talented version is stronger.

This reduces the rage required to Sunder (which is a good thing, since tanks can sometimes have issues getting enough rage at the start of a fight), and won't interfere with offtanks' ability to grab aggro should the main tank go down.