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Does anyone else find it odd that... - playingtokrush - 03-20-2005

Does anyone else find it odd that the rogue talent "Deflection" can be obtained before the actual skill it improves (parry)? If you notice, all the talent trees were constructed such that a class can't improve a spell or ability via talents before they are able to train it -- with this one exception (edit: err, and the shaman's improved reincarnation talent).

I remember back in beta that rogues could train parry at level 8 (of course, they could do so at warrior and paladin trainers, so that was a little screwy). It seems as though Blizzard increased the rogue level requirement on parry coming into retail without realizing the implication it had on rogue talents.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Lord BEEF - 03-20-2005

Shamans can also get the improved self reincarnation ability a good 15 or so levels before they can get the reincarnation ability.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - playingtokrush - 03-20-2005

Lord BEEF,Mar 20 2005, 02:54 PM Wrote:Shamans can also get the improved self reincarnation ability a good 15 or so levels before they can get the reincarnation ability.
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Ahh. So there are two talent oversights. Thanks for the info, and that sucks.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - savaughn - 03-21-2005

playingtokrush,Mar 20 2005, 03:39 PM Wrote:Ahh.  So there are two talent oversights.  Thanks for the info, and that sucks.
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I'd guess you can do this with most classes. Here's another example:

Execute: lvl 32, Improved Execute: lvl 25


Does anyone else find it odd that... - Lord BEEF - 03-21-2005

It seems most all of these are ones where they changed the talent trees after their initial design.

For instance, on the shaman talent, it used to simply reduce the casting time of your ressurect spell. Seeing as how that was just not a very good talent and they added a self reincarnation ability they switched it to effect that instead.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - playingtokrush - 03-21-2005

savaughn,Mar 21 2005, 12:58 PM Wrote:I'd guess you can do this with most classes.  Here's another example:

Execute: lvl 32, Improved Execute: lvl 25
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Well, I'll be. And I'm pretty sure you can't do this with most classes. Good luck finding any mage, warlock, or priest talents that are like that.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Kjartan - 03-22-2005

savaughn,Mar 21 2005, 07:58 PM Wrote:I'd guess you can do this with most classes.  Here's another example:

Execute: lvl 32, Improved Execute: lvl 25
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Actually thats wrong. Warriors get Execute rank 1 at lvl 24, rank 2 at 32. My warrior alt just reach lvl 24 and I was very happy to get this skill back (played warrior to lvl 60 in EU beta). So the warrior talents are positioned fine compared to where you get the skills, if only they were better :whistling:

Does anyone else find it odd that... - playingtokrush - 03-22-2005

Kjartan,Mar 22 2005, 06:22 AM Wrote:Actually thats wrong. Warriors get Execute rank 1 at lvl 24, rank 2 at 32. My warrior alt just reach lvl 24 and I was very happy to get this skill back (played warrior to lvl 60 in EU beta). So the warrior talents are positioned fine compared to where you get the skills, if only they were better :whistling:
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Thank you! So I was only off by one on the misplaced talents issue.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Zarathustra - 03-22-2005

We can also expect a change to the Druid talent tied to Tranquility, since the new spell Barkskin more or less nullifies its usefulness. Another example where the changes down the road threw a bit of a wrench in the gears of the talent trees.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - playingtokrush - 03-22-2005

Zarathustra,Mar 22 2005, 05:10 PM Wrote:We can also expect a change to the Druid talent tied to Tranquility, since the new spell Barkskin more or less nullifies its usefulness.  Another example where the changes down the road threw a bit of a wrench in the gears of the talent trees.
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The biggest problem is that Blizzard has demonstrated (and stated) a reluctance to make any significant changes to talent trees at this point. That's a shame, what with some talents being pointless before a certain level, and others just being relatively crappy, period. If Blizzard would jazz up the rarely-used talents, I think we'd have a lot fewer cookie cutter talent builds, as people would be better encouraged to put points in talents that improve the skills they like, as opposed to just putting points in the only talents that don't seem like a waste.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Zarathustra - 03-24-2005

playingtokrush,Mar 22 2005, 05:19 PM Wrote:The biggest problem is that Blizzard has demonstrated (and stated) a reluctance to make any significant changes to talent trees at this point.  That's a shame, what with some talents being pointless before a certain level, and others just being relatively crappy, period.  If Blizzard would jazz up the rarely-used talents, I think we'd have a lot fewer cookie cutter talent builds, as people would be better encouraged to put points in talents that improve the skills they like, as opposed to just putting points in the only talents that don't seem like a waste.
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Agreed. Blizzard also seems confused on its own goals when it comes to character classes as well. They have stated that a Druid is meant to shift into feral forms for melee combat, yet there's a worthless skill devoted to primary-form combat: Weapon Balance.

There is little to no incentive to invest five talent points in order to derive 10% melee weapon damage increase, especially considering the weapon damage does not factor into shifted damage.

Here's hoping those issues are ironed out over time.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Concillian - 03-26-2005

playingtokrush,Mar 22 2005, 04:19 PM Wrote:If Blizzard would jazz up the rarely-used talents, I think we'd have a lot fewer cookie cutter talent builds, as people would be better encouraged to put points in talents that improve the skills they like, as opposed to just putting points in the only talents that don't seem like a waste.
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I agree with this. What I think would make the largest impact is in the priest holy tree to make some small changes to the latter part of the tree:

swap locations of Improved Healing and Master healer (or call them something else)

Master healer, instead of reducing casting time by 0.1 per level reduces casting time by 8% per level, but also reduces healing and mana by a certain percent. Such that the end result would be much faster than what exists now, but not quite as mana efficient. Priests with this talent would have the choice of 1.5, 2.1 and 2.4 second heals, with the 1.5 potentially gaining the un-interruptability status from improved flash heal.

Placing it in this tier would allow people to get this more transformative talent with only 20 points invested, which allows them to go 31 deep in another tree if they desire, but they would forego the mana efficiency gain that the full holy priests would have.

I think it would make for some more interesting builds in all kinds of priests, as currently you really only have people investing in holy up to subtlety and maybe improved flash heal.

I love the way the rogue trees are setup. There are some tough tradeoffs, and yet, all the "standard" 4 or 5 builds are about equally effective. There are some little used talents, but that is bound to happen. These are the model talent trees for WoW, at least in my opinion.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Malakar - 03-28-2005

I agree that the rogue tree is done well, and I also agree that some trees need some work.

However, overall, from the trees I've had significant experience with, I can't really complain. I like it much better than D2's skill system, and the balance is better.

Does anyone else find it odd that... - Artega - 03-29-2005

playingtokrush,Mar 22 2005, 07:19 PM Wrote:The biggest problem is that Blizzard has demonstrated (and stated) a reluctance to make any significant changes to talent trees at this point.  That's a shame, what with some talents being pointless before a certain level, and others just being relatively crappy, period.  If Blizzard would jazz up the rarely-used talents, I think we'd have a lot fewer cookie cutter talent builds, as people would be better encouraged to put points in talents that improve the skills they like, as opposed to just putting points in the only talents that don't seem like a waste.
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Kinda like Paladin's Protection tree vs. Warrior's Protection tree. We some goodies (like Concussion Blow and Improved Shield Bash), but I just like the Paladin's tree better. Granted, I haven't had much experience using it, but it seems to be better on paper.

And that doesn't make up for the other issues I have with the Paladin class :P