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How I Play my Tank - Bolty - 04-11-2005
I'm just going to jot down my basic philosophy of tank instance play here, so it can be debated and that people who play with any of my tanks know what's coming. :)
Since I play on PvE servers, I have the luxury of decking out my warriors in a full-on Protection-based defensive stance talent build, with minor additional talents in the other trees to make me tougher/better able to hold aggro. On a PvP server this would make my warrior a joke. However, I really shine in instance play with the ability to take a severe beating and hold aggro.
From my healbot experience, I know that little irritates me more than the Slow Moving Group.⢠This is a group where the main tank doesn't take charge and seems to lead by committee - the whole "everyone ready?" thing before each and every fight. To me, it is one of the major roles of the designated tank to decide when the group is ready and thus start each encounter. Why's that?
Well, because I like to complete my instance runs before the paint peels on my walls, that's why. If you're going into an instance with me as a tank, be prepared to move from fight to fight to fight without much stoppage of play. What makes me halt?
1) Someone has to go afk a bit.
2) A boss fight.
3) Something that will clearly challenge our group and requires strategy discussion.
4) My healer(s) is out of or low on mana.
If I do not encounter one of these 4 scenarios, I am *not* stopping after a fight. I am moving on to the next one right away. I don't care if you're a mage and you have to drink - if I feel that the group can afford to fight the next encounter while you're drinking (which is true a high percentage of the time - contrary to many mages/warlocks beliefs, we CAN live for 20 seconds without you), I'm going for it. Likewise, if you need to loot the corpse, go ahead. If you need to create something, feed your pet, whatever, go ahead. Again, it's about not spending 6 hours in an instance. If I'm looking to start the next fight and see that the healer is looting, the mage is out of mana, the hunter is summoning their pet, and the rogue needs to apply poisons, I will take that into account before continuing, of course. But most of the time, if one party member needs to do some quick activity, the whole party doesn't need to stop and wait for it!
The reason a lot of players don't like to play their tanks this way is because playing this way puts a lot of responsibility on the tank's shoulders. If my aggressiveness gets the party killed, it's my fault. I don't see any difference between this and being a healer responsible for keeping everyone alive - maybe I'm just used to having a lot of responsibility in a party as a healer, so I don't mind having that also on me as a tank. Too many tank players don't want to be seen as the player who got everyone killed, so they play the let's-wait-until-everyone-has-100%-mana-and-health-and-tell-me-they're-ready-before-I-start-the-next-fight game. That's mostly only needed for boss fights, and that's how I play it. In many instances, most encounters are "junk" encounters where the threat to the party is minimal if they're playing correctly.
Going to level 60 as my Priest, my most enjoyable groups were ALL with tanks who played this way. They had their finger on the pulse of the party, made a quick evaluation on the party's ability to enter the next fight, and moved on immediately if the answer was yes. I recall specifically a Sunken Temple run that took about 3 hours to clear the entire thing with level-appropriate players, when another run I did with a Lurker group and a hesitant tank took almost 5. Not naming names or trying to be insulting - just educational. The aggressive tank knew when we were ready for the next group - and there are some big groups down there, so he couldn't just go from fight to fight to fight as I've described. But we also didn't wait around for a full minute before each fight to make sure everyone was ready to go - he could see we were and moved in. A well-oiled machine, no doubt.
There are some major advantages to playing this way, as well. For instance, a warrior tank's biggest gripe is when other players start engaging too quickly and pull aggro off them, because it takes some time to get that Rage bar built up. If you're immediately engaging the next group, the tank gets some time to do just that - build up aggro and rage before the partymates move in. In essence, you are starting the next fight so soon in order to make things easier!
Other players not used to this will get rubbed the wrong way. Mages who expect the whole party to sit and wait for them to drink up to full will be especially annoyed. However, I know that expert mage players understand and accept this - unless they are needed to sheep something early in the fight, they are there to blow opponents away, and they can't start doing that to their maximum potential until aggro is built up on the tank anyway.
No, in terms of mana, it's the healer that counts, and that's what I pay attention to. But to pull this off completely, what is unfortunately required of a tank is knowledge of what every other player is capable of. I do have the advantage of having thoroughly played priests, mages, warlocks, and warriors, with slight experience in druids and rogues. But there are aspects and subtleties of playing druids, rogues, shamans, paladins, and hunters that I've only gained from watching them play. And I can see how that hurts me! Just yesterday I was running Razorfen Kraul with a Lurker group and I repeatedly forgot about Sap to help out on some boss fights that had adds. I also appreciated the Lurker who reminded me of it each time, so that I can be a better tank in the future. Knowing the abilities of every other class in the game makes you a better tank - which you need to be if you want to be a TRUE tank (in my opinion) who takes the responsibility of party survival on their shoulders.
I find instance runs to be much more relaxing when I play a role other than main tank or main healer. The ultimate survivability of the party isn't my responsibility, simply because I have less actual impact on the outcome. Not to lessen the other classes, but it's true. While an amazingly cool well-timed move might save the party in a drastic situation as a non-healer or non-tank, that might not have been required had the main tank not performed a bad pull, or the main healer accidentally let the tank/other player die mid battle. This makes instance runs more exciting as the tank or healer, but also more pressure-packed as well. I know I can't fall asleep doing an instance run as a main tank, not when I get all the action of making the pulls and watching over my party. :) But the pressure not to make a mistake is higher as well.
In summary, if you group with me as a main tank expect that I will push you a little. I try to gauge how quickly a party can move through an instance and develop a rhythym, as fast or as slow as it may be depending on party makeup and instance difficulty. But you won't be able to say it's boring - unless we're TOO good. :)
My basic play checklist:
1) Fight's over! We r0xx0r! :)
2) Can I loot anything? If so, loot.
3) Does the healer have enough mana for the next encounter?
4) Is the party in general good health?
5) Yep - attack! They'll be along right after me, and I'll have some time to build up aggro...
-Bolty
How I Play my Tank - Treesh - 04-11-2005
Bolty,Apr 11 2005, 10:03 AM Wrote:Knowing the abilities of every other class in the game makes you a better tank - which you need to be if you want to be a TRUE tank (in my opinion) who takes the responsibility of party survival on their shoulders.Knowing the abilities of every other class in the game just makes you an overall better player which will be an immense bonus to any group you are in. Yes, you can learn a lot by grouping with as many different classes as you can, but you don't usually get to see all the tricks of the trade either. This is one of the many reasons why I have so many characters - I want to know just what each class is capable of and what their strengths and weaknesses are. Unfortunately, the pally was so non-intuitive to me that she's fallen way behind, but I've got Balador to watch sometimes when I play my Pepperi so I'm seeing more of the pally now.
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About the quick pace of groups. Sometimes I like to just get it done, sometimes I like to have a more leisurely pace. RFK was quick, which was fine because there really wasn't much in the way of trouble. The first time I went through Blackfathoms Deeps, we took a slow pace - partially because GG and I still played slow back then and partially because one of the members had a horrible previous group in there (wiping multiple times even at the start of the instance). One of the most leisurely instances ever. Until we got some bad pulls toward the end and then we had to actually wake up and play. ;) My mage and my priest always try to conserve mana so I don't slow the group down much by a lot of drinking, but I don't conserve so much that I'm a complete drag on the killing speed (except with my holy priest. She doesn't throw out damage nearly as much as she probably should, but I'm always paranoid about something going so wrong that I'll need every spare bit of mana I have to keep us alive).
I don't necessarily agree with you Bolty on who should set the pace though. I wouldn't say it should always be the main tank. I say it should be the main puller though. Sometimes that's the tank, sometimes it's a hunter, sometimes it's a pull from the magic users because the main tank is a pally who hasn't mastered the art of body pulling yet. I'm still not convinced of the idea that it should always be the warrior who is the puller, but as most people I've grouped with by now know I like to try new tricks a lot anyway if I'm overlevelled for an instance. Some work, some don't, some only work after we get some of the kinks worked out. I've seen warriors who are excellent pullers, I've seen some hunters who weren't good pullers. I've seen horrible warrior pullers (put him on my ignore list right away!) and magic users who were the best pullers in the group. Different group compositions really change group dynamics and if you force everyone into the same old role and do things the same old way every time, you really aren't living up to your playing potential and the instance may not go as smoothly and as quickly as it could be.
Edit: Oh, and poisoning doesn't actually take much longer than using sharpening or weight stones. I may have given you the impression that it takes longer than it does, but I like to have both my weapons poisoned at once rather than just one. Sometimes it just takes me longer to decide what poisons I want to apply. ;)
Edit2: Another thing that's not really on topic, but speaking of tricks of the trade for other classes made a little spark in my mind. If you have the money, buy all the skills available to your class. You never know when those "useless" skills will come in handy. I've even had a case where levitate was required in a situation with my Aleri. We got trained, spawned on and patrolled when the two of us were playing around outside the Uldaman instance, but inside the cave. Gnolack died giving me enough time to run to the instance and lose any critters chasing me. I came out, worked my way back to his body, but couldn't get line of sight without aggroing about three of the stupid buggers because I was too short even when standing on a barrel or else it was a plank. I don't quite remember. So I levitated and managed to res GG that way. Healed and buffed him up, drank, and we took out the critters I would have aggroed if I didn't have levitate. So, buy all your skills that you can so you have as many tricks up your sleeve as possible.
How I Play my Tank - Darian - 04-11-2005
Bolty,Apr 11 2005, 11:03 AM Wrote:1) Fight's over! We r0xx0r! :)
2) Can I loot anything? If so, loot.
3) Does the healer have enough mana for the next encounter?
4) Is the party in general good health?
5) Yep - attack! They'll be along right after me, and I'll have some time to build up aggro...
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3a) Check buffs. ;)
Of course, you then get into the question of what buffs are really necessary, and what buffs are really necessary for anyone but ME (honestly, while I don't object to the entire party getting PW:Fort, the only person I'm concerned about is me since I'm the one sucking up the damage). But even then, if all we're doing at the moment is cleaning up yard trash in Dead Side, well... I'm not going to worry about it too much.
That said... if I haven't done a given instance a few times already, I'm liable to be slow because I don't have an idea what I should expect. After I know the instance well... I'm with you 100%. Just pull the damn thing and roll. (And of course, even with increased respawn timers in Strat and Scholomance, being deliberate might get you TO the end more safely, but will probably guarantee you won't FINISH unless you have a wipe-free run.)
How I Play my Tank - Tal - 04-11-2005
One thing to add to your list, that unfortunately slows things down, is taking a moment to watch the patterns of patrolling mobs before pulling. Nothing worse than pulling the standard 3 mob and having a patrol jump in and possibly causing a wipe. Wandering mobs become more and more prevalent in later instances.
A quick pace can also be maintained if communication on Crowd control is made early. This can be as simple as "I will always sheep the mob farthest away", "I will sap X mob since he hits the hardest" or "I will shackle the banshee as they cast silence". Failure to communicate these things could lead to a much slower pace. :)
How I Play my Tank - mjdoom - 04-11-2005
This reply is actually to both Bolty and Treesh but I'm going to put it under Bolty's post.
Most of my real experiences with instances involve various 5-man groups in upper level instances (BRD, Scholo, Strat). This probably has some bearing on my perspectives.
Generally, as Bolty says, a lot of an instance is "trash" that can be handled very easily by well balanced groups. That said, this "trash" can be dangerous in two particular cases; 1.) Someone in the group isn't sure of exactly what is going on, 2.) You have a less than ideal group (such as the Priest, Priest, Rogue, Rogue, Hunter group I spent time in Strat with). In these cases it is more imperative to make sure everybody knows the exact strategy before engaging the mobs. Certain pulls might be repeated multiple times, thus allowing the group to move more quickly (due to familiarity) but it is still important to have everyone on the same page. Thus I would extend the points to say that you have to be sure that everyone in your party is ready mentally as well as physically (mana, health, etc.) before pulling. Different groups will have different levels here so this is another component to the "pulse" of the group.
The other thing is that crowd control moves from more of a convenience to an absolute necessity at higher levels. If you have it you should be using it. This means that the concept of a pull is very fluid. Any form of crowd control can be used as a pulling tactic (with the exception of Sap which is usually bad if it pulls :)). This means that any one of the tank, mage, warlock, hunter, or priest could be pulling on any given pull. I have personally been body pulling as a priest in Scholomance before in the room leading to Jandice Barov as it allowed me to assess a pull quickly and determine where to send my shackle. Also, thanks to Quark I've learned to never underestimate the power of distract when setting up a pull ;). Rooms such as the Reliquary at the beginning of Scholomance can involve 3 or 4 different pulling tactics over the course of clearing the room. This is another case where making sure everyone knows exactly what is going on is key.
A group might be perfectly capable of handling a pull, but if someone isn't on the same page they could wipe just as easily. This will sometimes require the group to slow down just to be sure of what is going on. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to get full mana every time, but it does mean you might have to pause for an extra few seconds to do things like call targets or designate which group is being pulled next as pulling tactics may vary. It might surprise some people, but as the priest I very rarely drink other than when I am in a buffing rotation (and getting Prayer of Fortitude has shortened that downtime). I often start battles with less than full mana as a capable group is usually ok against "trash" mobs. I usually try to be above half when we start but drinking as a battle starts is always an option. It is extremely rare that your tank will go down in the first 5-10 seconds of a "trash" mob fight unless the pull went badly, and in that case you are in bad shape anyway. In more zerg-like situations I will actually buff on the fly and I can complete runs of places like UBRS by only drinking before boss fights.
I guess my general response is that very often capable groups can move more quickly through instances and it is certainly true that you don't have to wait for things like full mana before every pull. That said it is still important to be sure that everyone knows what is going on before a group is pulled. As long as this is satisfied moving swiftly has its advantages (like potentially avoiding respawns, less chance of running into fatigue).
- mjdoom
How I Play my Tank - Darian - 04-11-2005
Treesh,Apr 11 2005, 11:31 AM Wrote:I'm still not convinced of the idea that it should always be the warrior who is the puller, but as most people I've grouped with by now know I like to try new tricks a lot anyway if I'm overlevelled for an instance.
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If the warrior's got 300 in bows, then it's almost always best to let the warrior pull (with obvious exceptions, such as situations where the most effective pull involves a sap, a sheep, and a mind-controlled healer... or when counterspell's called for but you want your own attention on a different mob than the caster in question at the outset of the fight). But you're right on two levels. Some warriors are just lousy at it even if their weapon skill is high enough -- bad target selection being the major culprit. (I've seen guys pulling the back non-elite mob out of a group with three elites; what can they possibly be thinking there?)
And it's always a good idea to experiment with allowing other people to pull so that you, as the tank, know what their pulling capabilities are. That way you know when to ask someone else to do the honors when it's most sensible (which it is far more often than a lot of tanks realize, I think).
How I Play my Tank - Kevin - 04-11-2005
I still tank slow. Though the last few instances I have tanked have been new to me or I have been trying new things with new party members. But I do agree. I'm getting more aggressive the more I play and learn.
As the healer in the last run with you as main tank I actually thought we were a bit slow at times. You waited for mana when you didn't need to, but well I'm a paranoid healer when I am druid (I can't recover a wipe, even if I might be able to prevent one) so I didn't say anything so you played it right. The fact that I had the wrong stack of drinks with me annoyed me greatly as well and slowed us some that we didn't need. But the only thing that was too quick was not using sap on boss fights but that still didn't matter we owned that instance.
I agree with Treesh that the main puller should set pace and that it doesn't always need to be the tank.
Another note even when I'm main tanking when not the main puller only one person should set battle plans unless it is going to really cause problems in which case someone should be really vocal about. Got in a situation where two plans were called, one by me as tank and one by the puller. Half the group followed one, half the other. I blame me for it since the puller had been calling plans most of the time and had more experience in the instance. Of course there were a lot of experiments in that group and we made it through the battle without anyone but a pet dead, but the leader should be the leader and I should have shut up. :) It is something to keep in mind and something that at times should be clearly defined so it doesn't cause problems later.
Handing of adds needs to be discussed as well. As main tank or off tank when there are mages around I need to know when things are going to be sheeped. I hate breaking sheep and I hate waiting too long to grab something that isn't going to be sheeped. But that is something the tank needs to be aware of. I know this is getting into basic group start again but I wanted to bring it up.
Some buffs can be run on the fly. A paladin is going to be blessing on the fly and in the middle of combat at times because of the length. Things like Mark and PW:F you generally want to hit in a good down spot because of their length of run and mana cost. But generally that isn't going to slow you down more than a minute or so to get them all refreshed. Maybe two drinking sessions. Since most buffers run them all on the same timer the tank can easily check the time on theirs and know that everyone else should be good. I try to casts buffs so that if they do go down they go down on the people who need them the most last (tank is the last one I cast one in other words).
So yeah, even though I can be a slow tank, I agree that faster controlled paces are generally just fine if not better. I agree about the mana on mages, warlocks and hunters, they don't need to be full for anything but boss fights and there is nothing wrong with a support person drinking at the start of the fight. Heck the healer can be drinking at the start of a fight without problems most of the time and that in fact happened once in Razorfen even if you weren't aware of it. :)
How I Play my Tank - Kevin - 04-11-2005
I'm glad you said almost always. But I ran Uldaman as the only warrior in the group where the only time I pulled was if it was best to charge pull. Any range pull was handled by the hunter and once we got everyone on the same page it worked very very smoothly. I don't see how me pulling would have worked better.
The group was a mage, 2 hunters, a warrior, and a priest. The highest level hunter pulled and since he knew he could go all out and his pet could hold aggro against him, we didn't bother to have me try and hold on the pulled mob, I didn't even test to see if I could. The pet tanked it and everyone wailed on it. Everything else was held by me and the priest could keep me healthy with a HoT. Adds were not sheeped unless there were more than one. Sure we didn't get to this strat right away but once we got there it was great. The healer was not using more mana because what the pet tanked died fast. At times I would charge what wasn't getting pulled at times I would let things come back to me. All I needed was a shout to get them all on me and bloodrage gives enough rage to do that. If it was just one extra I could just swing and take it right there.
We did do pulls where the pet wasn't going to tank it for me and I had no trouble getting aggro if I started in defensive stance (maxed defiance does more than 15% threat in my opinion), even without the hunter trying to drop it. If I started in battle stance even with a charge I could have some trouble with getting it though.
The times I pulled were to charge an elite with the pack on non elites. I would charge the elite, clap and shout to lower their damage then the shielded mage would AoE which pulled everything put the elite I was hitting and the hunters would mop up anything that didn't die. Then they would assist on the elite.
There are times when the warrior doesn't need to pull and it was faster going for them not to.
Now sure Uldaman is still an early instance but when the plan was follwed by everyone things were smooth. It was how I wanted things to run the whole time, but I didn't communicate things well at that start and the mage and the non puller hunter were confused for some of it.
Edit: For completeness the hunter who was pulling didn't say that his cat could always hold aggro on him. He said it was the only tank he had played with that could come close and that he knew pretty much exactly what he could do and not lose aggro on it. I never attempted to test his statement against my tanking ability though at some point I would like to try :) There wasn't any point since the healer stated that it wasn't a mana drain since against single mobs the pet only needed a HoT on it for healing before the mob died and I only needed a HoT until whatever I was holding was wiped out. No different than a primary assist or an off tank that took aggro for a bit.
How I Play my Tank - Darian - 04-11-2005
Gnollguy,Apr 11 2005, 12:26 PM Wrote:I'm glad you said almost always. But I ran Uldaman as the only warrior in the group where the only time I pulled was if it was best to charge pull. Any range pull was handled by the hunter and once we got everyone on the same page it worked very very smoothly. I don't see how me pulling would have worked better.
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/nodnodnod
Keep in mind, as a tank I'm long-since locked into the level 60 mindset (that's why I said if your warrior's got 300 in bows!), so that's where I was speaking from. Obviously what's relevant at 60 may not be relevant at all at 40. (And it often isn't; after all, most warriors won't spec defensive until 60 if at all, which of course changes the dynamic drastically. That's just one example.)
When we were doing Uldaman, we did it exactly as you did, and if we were doing it all over again, we'd still do it. :) And it can still work that way at 60, with one caveat: if your warrior's nearly as good with one non-ability shot with a bow as your hunter, then there's not a lot to recommend your hunter taking the shot and a few minor things recommending against it, IMO. (That said, I will sometimes ask the hunter to pull with a concussive in order to split up linked mobs, but I'm usually still pulling the main mob and leaving the concussed mob for off-tanking.)
How I Play my Tank - Gurnsey - 04-11-2005
Bolty,Apr 11 2005, 07:03 AM Wrote:From my healbot experience, I know that little irritates me more than the Slow Moving Group.⢠This is a group where the main tank doesn't take charge and seems to lead by committee - the whole "everyone ready?" thing before each and every fight.What's worse than leading by committee is when you all agree that you are ready and then NOTHING HAPPENS!
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The RFK run that I wrote about was one of those cases. The group was Warrior, Warrior, Shaman, Shaman. We had agreed that the other shaman would be the main healer, with me on backup if things got hairy. We were levels 32-34, which is well enough to make all but the boss fights fairly trivial.
After the first two cases of "rdy? rdy! rdy rdy"..............
........
........
........
<frustrated lightning bolt pull>
Guess who ended up leading, pulling, and in most cases, tanking?
I'll give you a hint - it wasn't either of the highly-armored warriors. And I wasn't using Rockbiter (Shaman weapon buff that causes lots of extra threat) or making heavy use of Earthshock. To make things worse, I had to do a lot of the healing as well, because the healing shaman would often draw aggro and have to stop, fight, and heal himself.
Compare this to the Blackfathom Deeps run. A less than ideal group no matter that we were overlevelled - Hunter, Shaman, Priest. This group worked surprisingly well. The hunter pulled and set the pace well. He, his pet and I shared the tanking duties. He would pull with Volley so as to tag as many of the mobs as possible so that they wouldn't instantly turn on the Priest. I would Earthshock a spellcaster to bring it over. We worked on mobs that were on his pet first, then ones on me, then ones on him (he had Aspect of the Monkey up and did quite well holding on with little or no healing until we got to him). The second he and his pet were healed close to top and the priest had more than half mana, he moved on to the next pull. The only time we paused was for the boss fights to make sure that we were ready - the bosses in here are all solo-pulls so we probably didn't even have to take special precautions.
We were overlevelled by a bit for both instances, but the Blackfathom Deeps went so much better just for having the puller or tanker lead and take initiative.
It's ok for the tank/puller to stop and ask 'Which way?', to take 5 seconds to asses the group's situation, to say 'Hold on and wait for this patrol to pass', even 'AFK for 5 min, my dinner is on fire'. It's ridiculous for them to stand there mute with the whole group at full health/mana, waiting for someone to make a move.
Just my semi-uneducated opinion.
How I Play my Tank - Olon97 - 04-11-2005
Pacing is an entirely seperate issue from who is pulling, IMO.
I'm guilty of leading slow moving groups, at least initially with pickup groups that is. Once people get a feel for each other and it's clear everyone's doing their job adequately, I speed up pulls significantly.
One advantage of a tank pulling while others are still drinking/looting is you often end up with better aggro buildup than when everyone is bored and itching to start killing. :P
It is a fine balance though. If I push a group too hard, we will frequently wipe (healer interrupts a drink to heal an early crit then gets oom, or whetever) and I pretty much have nobody but myself to blame.
How I Play my Tank - Ruvanal - 04-11-2005
Gnollguy,Apr 11 2005, 12:26 PM Wrote:Edit: For completeness the hunter who was pulling didn't say that his cat could always hold aggro on him. He said it was the only tank he had played with that could come close and that he knew pretty much exactly what he could do and not lose aggro on it. I never attempted to test his statement against my tanking ability though at some point I would like to try :) There wasn't any point since the healer stated that it wasn't a mana drain since against single mobs the pet only needed a HoT on it for healing before the mob died and I only needed a HoT until whatever I was holding was wiped out. No different than a primary assist or an off tank that took aggro for a bit.
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Actually we did test it unintentionally with Ironaya (giantess in the hidden chamber). It was Taunshu that pulled the aggro that you had to use a Taunt to get the attention back with. That came from 3 crits in a string of 4 autoshot hits that did over 1600 damage total. Two of the crits were for over 400 each and the the third crit that made her start to turn was for 600 at which point her attention snapped up from you and she started walking toward me. It was also another crit a little later that started her heading my way again just before we took her out.
And by the way Taunshu had Aspect of the Monkey on during that fight.
How I Play my Tank - Thawwing Light - 04-11-2005
After having a highly successful series of runs on Scarlet Monastery last night as main tank for all groups, I agree with you in full. The main tank usually sets the pace for the group... by the healer's mana. With the priest playing healbot and the tank being a hate and not-dying bot, we took down Mograine and Whitemaine with only 4 players, all 38-. Then, we took down Herod with 3 before filling out to 5 and zerging the Library.
I also agree that a defensively oriented spec helps a lot, but you can acquire one of these on a PvP server without being a joke (or at least, a very funny one). Some tricks I've found:
1) Many defensively minded specs include Piercing Howl. Mine certainly does. If yours does, it's not a bad idea to push for this first, as its utility arises in so many situations (runners, group hate, running away, mage AoE kiting) and Cruelty is on the path to getting it, adding to your effectiveness in the damage category. Plus, piercing howl is my #1 favorite trick when running from ganking paladins
2)Another common choice for defensive plans is Tactical Mastery/Anger Management. I picked this up, and while I may respec out of it, I've found it allows me to open with charge in safe situations (not every pull, or even most, should be charged), and it allows me to switch stances at the end of a fight for a quick execute, which is invaluable against instance bosses. Anger management's added rage gain is also a boon, and its slowed loss allows pacing in the fight through the instance.
That said, the Sword and Shield warrior is definitely a rare and valuable breed (and I must keep billing myself as such to keep it that way in the public's mind). Your entire arguement rings true especially if faced with a group that:
1) Doesn't have a rogue sapping. If you have this, let the rogue set the pace
2) Don't have a mage pulling with sheep. ""
3) Don't have a druid pulling with hibernate ""
4) Don't have a warlock pulling with banish ""
Now, all of these things can be done after the pull, but it seems to be best if it's the puller that uses them, if you don't mind, as a warrior, charging and sundering to gain hate on the other monsters in the pull. Personally, I judge this on a case basis. Some groups, it's better to pull with CC, and others, the CC can be done after the pull.
How I Play my Tank - vor_lord - 04-11-2005
Thawwing Light,Apr 11 2005, 02:57 PM Wrote:Your entire arguement rings true especially if faced with a group that:
1) Doesn't have a rogue sapping. If you have this, let the rogue set the pace
2) Don't have a mage pulling with sheep. ""
3) Don't have a druid pulling with hibernate ""
4) Don't have a warlock pulling with banish ""
Now, all of these things can be done after the pull, but it seems to be best if it's the puller that uses them, if you don't mind, as a warrior, charging and sundering to gain hate on the other monsters in the pull. Personally, I judge this on a case basis. Some groups, it's better to pull with CC, and others, the CC can be done after the pull.
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Some places are dangerous to sheep pull. Sheep wander and can unexpectedly break. There isn't much choice if the mob to be sheeped is a caster, but sometimes it is safer to pull with something else, then sheep as the mobs get near.
We had a sheep pull in Uldaman where the sheep wandered too near to the next group and popped--around a corner and therefore out of line-of-sight. We didn't wipe as it happened late enough that the current group we were fighting was mostly beaten, but I've been wary of sheep pulling since then.
Not sure how often this is a factor in high level instances--I think it was in Mongo's Scholomance tale where he specifically recommends against it for a particular area.
How I Play my Tank - Quark - 04-11-2005
vor_lord,Apr 11 2005, 05:21 PM Wrote:Some places are dangerous to sheep pull.
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Keyword is some. You learn from experience when a sheep pull is good and when it is not. Scarlet side of Stratholme, it's very bad. We learned that the hard way. In Scholomance, the summoners' room is handled quite well with a sheep pull. Rylea's sequence was Sheep non-summoner, Counterspell summoner, kill Summoner. When we had a warlock, a Seduce was done right after the sheep. When we had just rogue, a Sap was applied before the sheep.
Don't get stuck saying certain tactics don't work. Mind Control is horrible in many areas, but awesome in others. It's just a matter of learning the situation and seeing what you can do with it.
How I Play my Tank - Boutros - 04-11-2005
I'm probably guilty of running some slow groups when it's my first time through an instance. If I don't know what's coming I want everyone to be at 100%. Usually, though I just check the priest's mana before I pull. But lately I've really started coming around to the idea of the tank not pulling. I honestly prefer the rogue or mage or hunter to pull in virtually every situation that isn't a boss fight. It allows me to charge the pull as it arrives at the group and drop a quick thunderclap and maybe a whirlwind before I switch to defensive, whereas if I were pulling I wouldn't be able to charge most times and would have to play a more reactive style.
How I Play my Tank - Tal - 04-12-2005
Boutros,Apr 11 2005, 07:55 PM Wrote:But lately I've really started coming around to the idea of the tank not pulling. I honestly prefer the rogue or mage or hunter to pull in virtually every situation that isn't a boss fight.
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This evening I participated in a Baron raid where I was designated Main Assist. I figured it was my job to pick the targets to kill after our warrior pulled. No - our warrior explained most emphatically that she will be main tank and will pull the aggro off me. So I quickly switched a trinket and started exorcisming things. It went smoothly until the other two paladins started trying to pull. Even then we zerg'd for the victory. ;)
How I Play my Tank - Artega - 04-12-2005
Boutros,Apr 11 2005, 07:55 PM Wrote:I'm probably guilty of running some slow groups when it's my first time through an instance. If I don't know what's coming I want everyone to be at 100%. Usually, though I just check the priest's mana before I pull. But lately I've really started coming around to the idea of the tank not pulling. I honestly prefer the rogue or mage or hunter to pull in virtually every situation that isn't a boss fight. It allows me to charge the pull as it arrives at the group and drop a quick thunderclap and maybe a whirlwind before I switch to defensive, whereas if I were pulling I wouldn't be able to charge most times and would have to play a more reactive style.
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I've found that Bloodrage is effective enough. I'll switch to Defensive before the pull, tap Bloodrage, and then pull as the rage builds. By having the tank pull, all initial aggro will be on him, and it allows mob-trapping by hunters more easily, since the unattached mobs will be heading to the tank :)
How I Play my Tank - Brista - 04-12-2005
First, a nit
I think what Bolty describes in terms of the pace-setting and decision-making is the puller's job, not the tank's. It sounds like he's mostly been puller when tanking so the distinction is moot in that case
Next I'd like to support the philosophy of pushing the group a bit
There are two elements to what I want to say: morale and attention
Morale is a huge factor in grouping. We've all been in groups where we've spent a lot of time getting the group together or waiting for someone else to do so, only to see people leave in disgust after the first bad pull. Decisive, controlled pulling has a big impact on the group's morale. Not everyone likes it, I've even had the word "fascist" used! But any group where people say things like "I must go to bed now", then play for another 4 hours or where everyone puts the rest on friends at the end has a decisive, confident puller
It's very hard to convince people that you're a decisive, confident, knowledgeable puller if you're slow.
The "ready?" convention is something that the Amazon Basin promoted a lot in hardcore D2 games. We usually abbreviate it to "r?". It makes a lot of sense because if someone's looking in their inventory and you pop Hell De Seis on top of them it's a long way to level back up. I think it became rather too prevalent in AB games but it's not a bad convention for playing with people new to you when the consequences are steep. Since WoW death is pretty trivial I don't see anything like so good a case for it to be applied so ubiquitously here.
I left a group once when I was keeping something about 6 levels higher than me sheeped while the others were skinning and looting. They took their time in a leisurely way despite my life bar occasionally jumping downwards, they just didnt notice. I resheeped it twice, being on about 5% life last time and the others still didn't notice. It eventually unsheeped and killed me and I logged out and went to do something else for the rest of the evening. That's demoralisation
Attention is really important to a good group. In a good group people pay attention. People notice changes in life bars, mana bars, people rotate the view to look around, people tell each other if they are afk or alt tabbing to thottbot
Inattention is contagious. If folks feel that the others aren't really paying attention or are stealth afking then they lose interest. It's very closely tied to morale
Some of the more experienced tanks end up with significant guild status. They can then sometimes make the mistake of trying to run the guild while tanking and pulling for a group. So you get fast pull, fast pull, fast pull, unexplained stillness for 90 seconds and so on. Problem with this is that other people then start imitating this behaviour so crucial personnel may be simply not paying attention during a sudden crisis
Slow pulling also encourages people to stealth afk. It takes me about 60 seconds to go put the kettle on and return to the game. I'll confess I do actually do this without mentioning it from time to time while grouped, even as main healer. I do it when I think nothing's going to happen in the next 60 seconds. I never do it if I'm pushed, I ask for a break. I think this is pretty typical of most players
Even if the players don't leave their seats or alt tab, if the play is undemanding for a long time, then suddenly a crisis happens (eg a bad pull) they are naturally going to be slower to react, they're simply more relaxed
Now of course a lot of this is a matter of personal taste. Not everyone is going to want to be rushed. But from a tactical point of view I think the case is very strong that brisk pulling promotes greater effectiveness. As for taste, I think it's exciting, immersive, intense and rewarding - I do my laid back playing when I'm solo
How I Play my Tank - Thawwing Light - 04-12-2005
My experience with the sheep pull came mainly from the Scarlet Monastery library. We were running with an underleveled group of 2 Shamans, a Mage, and my Warrior. One of the Shamans was on healing duty, the Mage pulled with Sheep, and I (the most underleveled, at 34, when the rest were 36) acted as main tank on the other half of the sheeped pair. We also used a number of counterspell pulls, much like MongoJery's Scholomance run, as it seemed the only way to get these many casters close enough.
You're right, though. While those tactics worked perfectly here, I doubt they could work easily in a more tightly packed zone. Everywhere seems to have its own tactics, and the key to success is either experience or the ability to judge the situation.