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Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Brista - 04-18-2005
I'm about to get Innervate on my druid which is, for those who don't know, a big mana regen boost with a 6 minute cooldown. Increases mana regeneration by 400% and allows 100% of regeneration while casting, duration 20 seconds
Now when I'm in instances at what point is it better to boost the priest than myself. Most pre-60 priests are Shadow spec, including all of the ones I regularly play with. This probably means that as a Restoration spec druid I probably out-heal a similarly levelled priest which suggests I should Innervate myself when we need healing power in a tough instance
Is this correct?
And if it is correct, then at what level does a shadow priest surpass me as a healer?
Currently at level 38 my heals are
Healing Touch: 378 mana, heals 983 to 1176 (can crit)
Rejuvenate: 160 mana, heals 320 over 12 seconds (can't crit)
Regrowth: 420 mana, heals 434 to 489 plus 448 over 8 seconds (initial part can crit at a +40% bonus chance)
I have 1999 mana and 131 spirit
I'm wondering how that compares with level 40-45 priests
I imagine it will rarely be worth using it on anyone except a druid or priest as it seems the sort of skill where if you use it to bump up the mage's dps you'll regret it and wipe 2 minutes later while it's still cooling down
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Xanthix - 04-18-2005
I would simply advise you to use it on whoever is the primary healer. If you play with a holy priest it may be them, otherwise it may be you. But usually there is one personal mostly responsible for healing, and that person should probably get the Innervate.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Bun-Bun - 04-18-2005
Brista,Apr 18 2005, 08:57 AM Wrote:I'm about to get Innervate on my druid which is, for those who don't know, a big mana regen boost with a 6 minute cooldown. Increases mana regeneration by 400% and allows 100% of regeneration while casting, duration 20 seconds
Now when I'm in instances at what point is it better to boost the priest than myself. Most pre-60 priests are Shadow spec, including all of the ones I regularly play with. This probably means that as a Restoration spec druid I probably out-heal a similarly levelled priest which suggests I should Innervate myself when we need healing power in a tough instance
Is this correct?
This depends on a number of things. You need a big chunk of spirit to make Innervate worthwhile, so if your Shadow priest doesn't have a reasonable amount of spirit, Innervating that priest is not going to do much.
My feeling is that priests and druids of similar level are close enough in capability that player skill is a large factor. I'd use the Innervate on whoever is doing most of the healing. The only cases I can think of that the priest comes out ahead is in burst healing with Flash Heal and AoE healing, so if the tactical situation needs that, Innervate the priest, otherwise, a druid specced to the healing side would be more efficient.
Quote:I imagine it will rarely be worth using it on anyone except a druid or priest as it seems the sort of skill where if you use it to bump up the mage's dps you'll regret it and wipe 2 minutes later while it's still cooling down
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I agree. Unless your mage is a wonderfully generous, effective, and all around excellent oddball named Mitzy with a high-spirit build, Innervating the mage is not very cost-effective, and it gets rid of your fallback healing buffer.
Edit: Improved specificity.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Quark - 04-18-2005
Bun-Bun,Apr 18 2005, 10:40 AM Wrote:Unless your mage is an oddball with a high-spirit build, Innervating the mage is not very cost-effective...
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Ack, so now I'm an oddball too? Oh well, just another title to the list. On topic, don't waste an Innervate on a Mage. Mages can handle their own when it comes to mana, between Mana Gems and Evocation. The Priest running out of mana is more dangerous than the Mage, and the priest has less ways to recover that mana themselves.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - russ - 04-18-2005
Quote:This probably means that as a Restoration spec druid I probably out-heal a similarly levelled priest which suggests I should Innervate myself when we need healing power in a tough instance
This depends a lot on the situation. Unfortunatly, priests benefit more from each point of spirit, meaning that it can be very likely for a priest to get more 'benefit' from the innervate. Priests get a point of mana regen every tick for 4 spirit, while it takes druids 5 spirit to get the same. While there are some shadow priests out there who haven't buffed their spirit at all, many keep that value high for soloing to better grind mobs, and those who don't want it end up getting loads of the stuff anyway.
Not only that, the priests don't have the option of waiting a few seconds to go bear form and offtank, which can often save a party from a wipe with more certainty than any number of potions or uses of innervate will.
It's a matter of preference. Using innervate on yourself is a lot safer, since you know how to heal right, while shadow priests are a little inexperienced, and you're less likely to end up casting the innervate on the wrong person.
For pure math:
Average_Healing_Touch = (983 + 1176) / 2 = 1079 health
Health_per_Mana = 1079 / 378 = 2.855 health/mana
Spi_Brista = 131
Mana_regen_Brista = (131 / 5) + 15 = 41.2 mana/tick
tick = 2 seconds
Innervate_results_Brista = 41.2*4*10 ticks = 1648 mana
Health healed = 4705 health
For a same level priest -
Effiency_of_GreaterHeal = 2.24 health/mana
Mana_Needed = 4705 / 2.24 = 2100 mana
Mana_regen_second = 2100 / 40 = 52.5 mana/tick
(52.5 - 13) * 4 = 158 spirit
Spi_Priest > 158
Quote:And if it is correct, then at what level does a shadow priest surpass me as a healer?From a pure constant healing perspective, for a shadow specced priest to surpass you as a healer, they would need to have 4600 mana at level 34-39. At levels 40-45, they would need to have 4450 mana.
However, it is important to remember that a good deal of a healer's job can involve CC'ing, avoiding discovery aggro, and surviving bad pulls, and those are attributes which require some care and, sadly to say, some levels.
Disclaimer : None of the above assumuptions or calculations include crits, simply because I've gone through an entire Sunken Temple run without a single regrowth crit, and thus I don't feel that relying on them is a wise idea. That's with the talent at three points and a mage AoEing... not fun.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - BoddoZerg - 04-19-2005
russ,Apr 18 2005, 12:53 PM Wrote:Using innervate on yourself is a lot safer, since you know how to heal right, while shadow priests are a little inexperienced, and you're less likely to end up casting the innervate on the wrong person.
Excuse me? I wonder where everyone got the idea that shadow priests are inexperienced at healing.
I have been and still am fully Shadow specced for maximum PvP killing power. Yet, I've been main healer in almost every instance group I've been in, from Ragefire Chasm at level 14 to 5 man Stratholme groups at 60. I can count on one hand the number of times where I have not been main healer in a 5 man group. Once when I was level 19, I was grouped with a level 20 Holy Priest in Wailing Caverns. Another time when I was level 38, with a level 36 Holy Priest in Scarlet Monastery. When I was level 49 or 50 in Zul'Farrak, there was a Disc Priest along. And at level 58, in BRD, there were two shadow priests and we took turns healing and Shadowforming.
That's just four occasions in my life that I have been in a 5 man group, and not been main healer.
If Priests were as common as Rogues, then maybe we wouldn't always be main healer and you would see Shadow Priests that are inexperienced at healing. But as far as I'm concerned, a level 60 Shadow Priest has just as much experience healing as a level 60 Holy or Disc priest.
As for who gets the Innervate, I'm strongly of the opinion that the Priest should get it. Most Priests that I know keep a lot of +Spirit equipment around. Yes, even Shadow Priests - Druids are not the only characters that carry multiple sets of equipment for different situations, every lv 60 Shadow Priest I know does the same. We keep one suit of equipment with +STA and +Shadow Damage, and one suit of equipment with +INT and +SPI. Right now I have 13 slots out of a 14 slot bag devoted to alternate equipment at all times. With my "healing" equipment I have around 280 Spirit, giving me a mana regeneration slightly over 83 per tick - which is worth 3320 Mana over 20 seconds of Innervate. I'm not sure how much Spirit a Resto Druid has, because I've never played one, but that should give you an idea of how much benefit Innervate gives to a Priest.
Of course, if a Priest is holy or disc specced, it's pretty obvious who gets the Innervate. A friend of mine who is Disc specced has 340 buffed Spirit, around 100 mana regen per tick.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - russ - 04-19-2005
BoddoZerg,Apr 19 2005, 08:33 PM Wrote:Excuse me? I wonder where everyone got the idea that shadow priests are inexperienced at healing.Because if you take the same sample size as I have, you'll find that a massive amount of shadow priests do suck at healing. I have leveled three characters to 50 or higher, and until around the mid to late 50s, enough priests out there simply don't know the basics of how to heal. You'll find this on both PvP and PvE servers. There's the rare shadow priests that knows what they're doing, but a vast majority don't know jack.
Not just small stuff like not knowing how to maximize spirit regen or becoming an expert at dealing with a mage or warlock's AoE habits. I'm talking basic stuff like renewing a warrior at the start of each fight, or other stupid stuff. Using Prayer of Healing early into a pull, for example, when only two members were injured so far.
I have been in many situations where I have not been the healer in an instance. I have played the role of main tank, of damage dealer, and of utility class (hunter in druid-healer-run of Scholomance). Does that necessarily mean that I've had less experience than you? Seems like it, except for one major problem.
Druids have to be healers out of groups too. Even a balance or feral druid will already have discovered all the tricks needed for basic healing in a group.
Having a spare set of equipment, check. There's mobs you simply don't want to fight in form as early as 1k Needles. You wear feral gear against them and you'll still be toast, even if you do caster crap.
Having several ranks of each sort of heal, check. My feral druid had three ranks up at once at level 42, simply because there were mobs that it wasn't worth wasting a massive amount of mana to heal after, no reason to add extra downtime.
Knowing when to choice a quick heal or a big heal, check. That's something any druid has to figure out damn fast or they'll never survive a double pull.
I've seen shadow priests level. It's simple killing mobs, there's no need to heal since you'll run out of mana before you're even near having health problems. There's no difficult choices of effiency.
I've seen priests that make it to the end of Sunken Temple wearing obviously solo gear simply cause they can't think of a single reason to have spirit. I've seen priests that spam Flash Heal in situations it is fairly obvious that you could get a good Greater Heal off... over and over through an instance. I've certainly found priests that PW:S mages after aggro's been pulled off them, and those that had no idea that they could dispell magic on friendly targets, that was fun to explain in BRS. I've had the misfortune of running Dire Maul with a priest that still hadn't figured out what this thing called a debuff bar is, and what "Mortal Strike" does.
Simply put, I trust my own ability to heal much more than I trust a strangers. In guild groups, I'm more willing to throw innervate to other people, but you don't have many guild-only runs at level 40.
Quote:As for who gets the Innervate, I'm strongly of the opinion that the Priest should get it. Most Priests that I know keep a lot of +Spirit equipment around. Yes, even Shadow Priests - Druids are not the only characters that carry multiple sets of equipment for different situations, every lv 60 Shadow Priest I know does the same. We keep one suit of equipment with +STA and +Shadow Damage, and one suit of equipment with +INT and +SPI. Right now I have 13 slots out of a 14 slot bag devoted to alternate equipment at all times. With my "healing" equipment I have around 280 Spirit, giving me a mana regeneration slightly over 83 per tick - which is worth 3320 Mana over 20 seconds of Innervate. I'm not sure how much Spirit a Resto Druid has, because I've never played one, but that should give you an idea of how much benefit Innervate gives to a Priest.In my druid's healing equipment, I have 284 spirit at level 56. It's not much for my level, but I have crappy gear. I carry Gizzard Gum, but those are temporary buffs that are quite irritating to farm for, so let's ignore them for now. I get 72 mana per tick, and that equals 2880 mana.
Who wants to bet my heals are efficent enough to break that difference?
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Treesh - 04-19-2005
russ,Apr 19 2005, 04:25 PM Wrote:Because if you take the same sample size as I have, you'll find that a massive amount of shadow priests do suck at healing. I have leveled three characters to 50 or higher, and until around the mid to late 50s, enough priests out there simply don't know the basics of how to heal. You'll find this on both PvP and PvE servers. There's the rare shadow priests that knows what they're doing, but a vast majority don't know jack.You're mainly talking about priests who don't know how to play priests, not specifically shadow specced ones. I've been in groups where even the holy specced priests pull that crap. It's poor healing tactics period regardless of how they are specced. That is the fault of the person behind the keyboard and not the spec of the character.
Not just small stuff like not knowing how to maximize spirit regen or becoming an expert at dealing with a mage or warlock's AoE habits. I'm talking basic stuff like renewing a warrior at the start of each fight, or other stupid stuff. Using Prayer of Healing early into a pull, for example, when only two members were injured so far.
<snip>
I've seen priests that make it to the end of Sunken Temple wearing obviously solo gear simply cause they can't think of a single reason to have spirit. I've seen priests that spam Flash Heal in situations it is fairly obvious that you could get a good Greater Heal off... over and over through an instance. I've certainly found priests that PW:S mages after aggro's been pulled off them, and those that had no idea that they could dispell magic on friendly targets, that was fun to explain in BRS. I've had the misfortune of running Dire Maul with a priest that still hadn't figured out what this thing called a debuff bar is, and what "Mortal Strike" does.
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Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - gothmog - 04-20-2005
russ,Apr 19 2005, 10:25 PM Wrote:Because if you take the same sample size as I have, you'll find that a massive amount of shadow priests do suck at healing. I have leveled three characters to 50 or higher, and until around the mid to late 50s, enough priests out there simply don't know the basics of how to heal. You'll find this on both PvP and PvE servers. There's the rare shadow priests that knows what they're doing, but a vast majority don't know jack.
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Which "massive amount"? If you find 100 priests on a server above lvl 50 it is really a lot. I know Druids who didn't even know what Combat Rez ist, or who never heard of using taunting abilites. Druids who didn't once change the form away from cat in a whole Instance, not even when a pull went bad. Druids who didn't even care healing when the priest yells "OOM". Barkskin? Useful if you're in Cat form and have two mobs on you...
Blame the player, not the class. Somehow it seems that some Druids must reassure themselves again and again, that they "outheal a Shadow Priest any day" and "heal better than most Holy Priests", because they have so much more experience healing (especially in the official forum). I am sure most Druids have used their cat form in Instances more often to do damage than Shadow Priests have used their Shadowform. If you're a Priest you heal in groups. There is nearly no other way. Except in rare cases the group already has another healer you are the one who heals, regardless what spec you have. There are dozens of damage dealers, but only a handful of healers. If there is a Druid and a Priest chances are that the Druid becomes secondary healer and can do what he wants, the Priest is expected to be the healer (and don't deny it, every Druid is happy when he can use forms in Instances instead of healing ;)).
Except when you meet the rare Priest who doesn't play in groups at all, chances are good that he has played the Healing Role more than you have, regardless of his Spec.
You get people who don't know how to play their class in every class, on every level. Have I told you about the lvl 45 Warrior who didn't know how to drag skills onto his Quickbar....? :D
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - russ - 04-20-2005
Quote:Which "massive amount"? If you find 100 priests on a server above lvl 50 it is really a lot. I know Druids who didn't even know what Combat Rez ist, or who never heard of using taunting abilites. Druids who didn't once change the form away from cat in a whole Instance, not even when a pull went bad. Druids who didn't even care healing when the priest yells "OOM". Barkskin? Useful if you're in Cat form and have two mobs on you...
About 29 priests. I'm a pickup group fan, sadly enough. Out of that sheer number, I have seven writen down on my do not group list. That's not small stuff. That's for things like going into Shadowform and Mindflaying for an Evoker pull in lower BRS when you've already announced that you'll be primary healer.
Anyway, the difference is that, again, I know that I personally know how to play my character. I know that near a quarter of the priests out there can't say the same thing, and that means Innervating yourself just might be the best bet.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Concillian - 04-20-2005
Brista,Apr 18 2005, 06:57 AM Wrote:Currently at level 38 my heals are
Healing Touch: 378 mana, heals 983 to 1176 (can crit)
Rejuvenate: 160 mana, heals 320 over 12 seconds (can't crit)
Regrowth: 420 mana, heals 434 to 489 plus 448 over 8 seconds (initial part can crit at a +40% bonus chance)
I have 1999 mana and 131 spirit
I'm wondering how that compares with level 40-45 priests
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My priest is clvl 39 and healing specced that gives +10% to all heals healing, +15% to renew, and -6% mana to instant spells (renew). A shadow priest will probably primarily use Flash Heal.
Renew: 193m for 500 over 15 seconds
Flash Heal: 215m for 442-529
Heal 3: 375m for 851-964
Heal 4: 425m for 1067-1204
mana is 2827 with +31 to healing or 2962 without the +healing
SPI 150 (~50 mana per tick)
new rank of Flash heal is at 40, which ups efficiency by ~0.10 mana per health.
A full Holy spec will have a more efficient Heal skill, but most don't head that direction because of the untility of Flash heal, and it's not all that less efficient than the insanely long cast time Heal/Greater Heal.
I would say if you're a competant healer, and have 131 spirit, Innervate will be best on you. If your priest looks to be heling very competantly, it's probably best on him. The cases where innervate is necessary for survival should be few. Even fewer where it will make a difference whether it's cast on you or the priest.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Quark - 04-20-2005
russ,Apr 20 2005, 07:54 AM Wrote:I'm a pickup group fan, sadly enough.
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You reap what you sew. If you expect pickup group players to be good, you're asking for trouble.
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - lfd - 04-20-2005
Quark,Apr 20 2005, 02:13 PM Wrote:You reap what you sew.[right][snapback]74572[/snapback][/right]
Actually, you reap what you sow. :-)
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Quark - 04-20-2005
lfd,Apr 20 2005, 09:49 AM Wrote:Actually, you reap what you sow. :-)
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Meh, you know I searched google for 3 minutes trying to see if I spelled that right? Too many other people spell it wrong :P
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - DarkCrown - 04-20-2005
lfd,Apr 20 2005, 07:49 AM Wrote:Actually, you reap what you sow. :-)
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Actually, I most often rip what I sew. I've just never been very good at it. All thumbs when it comes to tailoring. :)
On the subject of druids, shadow priests and innervate:
Druids heal well enough to be main healers in all the places I've been so far in WoW. (I haven't yet fought Onyxia. Been to MC. Been to UBRS too often to talk about.) Shadow priests can also heal well enough to be main healers. It's mostly about the player, not as much about the class, spec or gear --- though more mana and more spirit can't hurt.
I play a druid most often, and I put the innervate where I feel it will do the most good. If the priest is a better player than I am, then he gets it every time. If I'm the main healer, and not as confident in the priest, then I get the innervate. I've tossed it on mages when what we needed was aoe and what we lacked was mana.
In short I don't think there is a hard and fast rule.
-DC
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - savaughn - 04-20-2005
Bun-Bun,Apr 18 2005, 08:40 AM Wrote:My feeling is that priests and druids of similar level are close enough in capability that player skill is a large factor. I'd use the Innervate on whoever is doing most of the healing. The only cases I can think of that the priest comes out ahead is in burst healing with Flash Heal and AoE healing, so if the tactical situation needs that, Innervate the priest, otherwise, a druid specced to the healing side would be more efficient.Actually, my experience is that the priest comes out ahead because of Fade and Subtlety. When Skand's rule #1 kicks in, you generally aren't racing to get the heals out, you're racing your tanks ability to keep hate on all of the mobs beating on him. The exception to this is anywhere you would need a healer rotation.
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I'm pretty stingey with my healing, though. Especially in pick up groups where you may need everything you've got. Pick-Up Groups! Now, with more Rule #1! :P
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Bun-Bun - 04-20-2005
savaughn,Apr 20 2005, 10:58 AM Wrote:Actually, my experience is that the priest comes out ahead because of Fade and Subtlety. [right][snapback]74588[/snapback][/right]
Druids get Subtlety too. :)
Gotta give you Fade, though. :(
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - russ - 04-20-2005
Quark,Apr 20 2005, 02:13 PM Wrote:You reap what you sew. If you expect pickup group players to be good, you're asking for trouble.I don't expect them to be good. I just notice when they aren't. I've had damn good and damn bad pickup groups before, that's all I expect. I can't always get a guild group going, so there's little other choice.
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Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - Brista - 04-21-2005
It seems the consensus is that it doesn't matter which healer gets 7k out of an innervate and which gets 8k - other factors matter more
I tend to forget in these games how wide the perception is that healers have a big skill factor. It just seems really obvious to me: pay attention, time your heals so as not to pull aggro, time them to heal before people die, don't spam nukes when you may need the mana to heal. It's not rocket science. Driving a car, which just about everyone can be trained to do, takes more skill
I admit I was taking all that for granted when I posed the question: what I meant was:
Assuming basic competence, similar levels and both players trying to heal, where is innervate most efficient?
So the answer is
1) Holy Priests
2) Restoration Druids
3) Shadow Priests
Do we agree?
Restoration Druid v Shadow Priests - gothmog - 04-21-2005
Brista,Apr 21 2005, 06:48 AM Wrote:So the answer is
1) Holy Priests
2) Restoration Druids
3) Shadow Priests
Do we agree?
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No, I disagree. You have to ask more questions:
- Do several people take damage and need healing? Has the Druid used his Barkskin/Tranquility up?
- Has the Tank full Aggro control or is it likely that the Healer will get mobs when he uses his additional heals?
- Is there AoE damage in this fight?
- Is it a fight against Undead? Against Beasts?
- How long will the fight last? Danger of adds?
- Combat rez used up? (Rezzing a OOM priest instead of innverating him rids him of aggro, brings him back with mana and the chance to drink)
- Disease/Magical Effect/Polymorph-heavy mobs or Curse/Poison?
- Who has the higher FA-skill (FA can save lifes ;))
It is a simple Question: Who gets more use out of the Innervate. Sometimes it is the Priest (regardless of Spec), sometimes it is the Druid, depending on the situation.