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Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - savaughn - 04-22-2005
So, I've heard a number of people address the PvP without Battlegrounds issue in some of the other threads and I thought it would be a good idea to create a thread that lets folks opine on the topic directly without creating tangents to other topics.
So the question is: Do you think that adding the PvP honor system before the Battlegrounds arenas are available was a good idea or a bad idea?
I'll start with what is probably the unpopular side of this, but I'm all on PvP servers and I have to say an absolute resounding YES! On the PvP servers there have always been folks who wanted to PvP and could be found roaming Arathi/Hillsbrad in hopes of finding a mass battle. The problem is that there's always been a larger populace that wanted to PvP in the ganking/griefing role. Questing in STV came with the expectation of getting ganked a few times an hour.
It's only been 3 days since the patch, so I can't say anything comprehensive, but I've seen two changes since then. 1) There seem to be fewer gankers out on the roads. The 3-5 level 60's who'd come and sit on the road in Duskwood for hours at a time are no longer there. This is probably because of 2) there are a lot more saviors out and about! If I've run into someone who was ganking, a single tell into the general chat has elicted 2-3 immediate responses of folks who were looking for PvP action and wanted to come to the rescue! Instead of letting an area wallow, the folks are coming to action immediately if there's a PvP opportunity!
My lvl 43 out and about in Tanaris got a) ganked less and b) quested more specifically because there WAS a war going on in GZ. What's more, I'm seeing a huge shift from solo and roving gankers to much more mass PvP. This is my favorite thing since the patch. In solo PvP, it's very much a rock-paper-scissors scenario with the way Blizz did the classes. En masse, everyone's abilities get to shine and the whole functions so much better than the sum of it's parts.
For me - the PvP Honor system has made my game play more exciting, less stressful, and better overall. But that's just my experience - what have you guys (especially the PvE'ers out there) been seeing?
<edit: emoticon problem.>
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Malakar - 04-22-2005
I'm not sure what to say yet at this point, because I don't believe the servers have "settled" yet.
Right now, it's common for people to go to mass PvP raids. I've done this, and it was fun when it wasn't laggy (one time late at night for a couple hours it wasn't laggy - server lag that is). I got a ton of Honorable Kills, but when comparing my Contribution Points for the day to the previous day where I fought solo, I got a lot less for the time involved. So if/when the masses figure that out, there could be a drastic change in PvP tendencies.
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Sir_Die_alot - 04-23-2005
savaughn,Apr 22 2005, 12:56 PM Wrote:So the question is: Do you think that adding the PvP honor system before the Battlegrounds arenas are available was a good idea or a bad idea?Bad. From the spam in Org it's apparent that Tarren Mill has been overrun on my server. Again. Maybe it was good on PvP servers but on PvE it turned XR and especially TM into the temporary battlegrounds and people trying to quest in the towns suffer for it.
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Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - nobbie - 04-23-2005
Sir_Die_alot,Apr 23 2005, 12:56 AM Wrote:Bad. From the spam in Org it's apparent that Tarren Mill has been overrun on my server. Again. Maybe it was good on PvP servers but on PvE it turned XR and especially TM into the temporary battlegrounds and people trying to quest in the towns suffer for it.Same here on the German RP servers. Tarren Mill was under constant attack today, the first day for us Europeans with patch 1.4.0. Blizzard should set up some Level 60 Elite Scouts in Tarren Mill asap ;)
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Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Thawwing Light - 04-23-2005
Honestly, I've seen more or less exactly what you have - now that there's something to be had by wasting the Alliance duo of Hunters that camp the Splintertree entrance day and night, there are 60s there beating the snot out of them. Questing in Badlands as a 40 was nice - duo'd with my priest friend, we had many small encounters and a few midscale battles (mostly 2 on 2, some 3 on 3, and the rare 5 on 8). It was a great night, despite being kited through monsters and knowing that there's always someone waiting until you start fighting to gank you. Still, as you said, there were a number of 60s just one /2 away looking for a good fight.
Overall, for the PvP servers, this patch has been a Good Thing. People are more interested in more 'even' fights (no one ever wants a perfectly fair battle, but now most opponents want a worthy target). Sure, there are still gankers, but there are counter-gankers, and I haven't seen quest givers being camped because, when it gets down to it, if someone on a PvP server wants to kill you/ annoy you/make you call your guild, they'll just waste you, and not bother with creative and roundabout methods of griefing. This hasn't gotten any worse than it was before.
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Artega - 04-23-2005
Totally agreed.
The only difference I've seen is that the ground from TM to SS is covered in skeletons day and night.
I am NOT looking forward to having to sprint for TM for Call of Water <_<
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Bob the Beholder - 04-24-2005
savaughn,Apr 22 2005, 08:56 PM Wrote:So, I've heard a number of people address the PvP without Battlegrounds issue in some of the other threads and I thought it would be a good idea to create a thread that lets folks opine on the topic directly without creating tangents to other topics.
So the question is: Do you think that adding the PvP honor system before the Battlegrounds arenas are available was a good idea or a bad idea?
I'll start with what is probably the unpopular side of this, but I'm all on PvP servers and I have to say an absolute resounding YES! On the PvP servers there have always been folks who wanted to PvP and could be found roaming Arathi/Hillsbrad in hopes of finding a mass battle. The problem is that there's always been a larger populace that wanted to PvP in the ganking/griefing role. Questing in STV came with the expectation of getting ganked a few times an hour.
It's only been 3 days since the patch, so I can't say anything comprehensive, but I've seen two changes since then. 1) There seem to be fewer gankers out on the roads. The 3-5 level 60's who'd come and sit on the road in Duskwood for hours at a time are no longer there. This is probably because of 2) there are a lot more saviors out and about! If I've run into someone who was ganking, a single tell into the general chat has elicted 2-3 immediate responses of folks who were looking for PvP action and wanted to come to the rescue! Instead of letting an area wallow, the folks are coming to action immediately if there's a PvP opportunity!
My lvl 43 out and about in Tanaris got a) ganked less and B) quested more specifically because there WAS a war going on in GZ. What's more, I'm seeing a huge shift from solo and roving gankers to much more mass PvP. This is my favorite thing since the patch. In solo PvP, it's very much a rock-paper-scissors scenario with the way Blizz did the classes. En masse, everyone's abilities get to shine and the whole functions so much better than the sum of it's parts.
For me - the PvP Honor system has made my game play more exciting, less stressful, and better overall. But that's just my experience - what have you guys (especially the PvE'ers out there) been seeing?
<edit: emoticon problem.>
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True enough on my pvp server, with the exception of mostly deserted areas like Thousand Needles.
Of course, that said, three-to-five alliance from 40-60 (I believe the highest was said to be 60 and the lowest 42) raided Freewind Post last night, and still got pushed back by a group of particularly valiant level 30 hordies. We just couldn't rely on the ones getting a fair fight to defend us.
Most other lower level areas where ganking goes on a lot, there have been roving bands of 60s on both sides taking out whoever is deemed to need it, as well as scouts for bigger guilds, looking for Alliance raids.
Played quite a bit in the past couple of days, and never had to deal with a quest giver being killed. I didn't even have trouble from alliance raids unless I lagged out and walked into the middle of them. Literally went into Hillsbrad in the middle of a raid and proceeded to finish about three quests without trouble from them. (Which is not to say there was no trouble, just not from people raiding. I got attacked at low health by the same human mage about five times, and a ?? paladin chased me all the way from the Lordamere Internment Camp to Tarren Mill. Mainly just the solo gankers everybody on pvp servers has to deal with from time to time.)
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - lfd - 04-24-2005
savaughn,Apr 22 2005, 08:56 PM Wrote:I'm all on PvP servers and I have to say an absolute resounding YES![right][snapback]74842[/snapback][/right]
As suspected, those people on the PvP servers love the changes. That's not really a big surprise; people on PvP servers like PvP, and chose the PvP server specifically for that reason.
For people on a PvE server, however, the situation is more complicated. There are plenty of people on PvE servers who like PvP (or we wouldn't be having these arguments in the first place), but more who aren't interested in PvP at all, and that's why they chose a non-PvP server.
It doesn't help that the majority of people taking part in the PvP raids are bored high-level characters; the tarren mill situation on my server is a ridiculous zergfest. Some of those PvP lovers also make the game rather unpleasant for people who just want to play PvE; I don't mind the /taunting or /chickening, because I can respond equally well with /kiss or /pat, but /spit really is a shade too far for my liking, and just gets you /ignored.
On an unrelated note, why should my priest's Mind Vision spell, cast on a pvp-enabled enemy, cause me to be flagged for PvP? It causes no damage, doesn't heal anyone attacking them, and doesn't put me into combat with them.
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Gregorius - 04-24-2005
I'm on a PvP server, and while I haven't played (studying for AP exams) since the new patch I've seen my brothers on. At level 35 my brother built up about 150 HKs in TM. But I really don't understand why everybody is putting so much effort into the honor system at "low" levels (thirties and forties).
In a way it's made things better because the big HK levels come from focused moves like raiding enemy towns. But on the other hand, it was entirely possible to hunt in Stranglethorn Vale, away from everything, and meet an enemy player and have the unspoken words give a message of "I don't want to kill you." Now you meet an enemy player, and you have to watch your back because you know they're waiting for you to get in a bad position. But I have the last laugh! Unless I'm stunned, I'm never in a bad position. (I love Restoration! Except, when you have full health and are one hit away from killing somebody who is 4+ the game punishes you by making you miss five times in a row.)
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Quark - 04-24-2005
lfd,Apr 24 2005, 10:54 AM Wrote:On an unrelated note, why should my priest's Mind Vision spell, cast on a pvp-enabled enemy, cause me to be flagged for PvP? It causes no damage, doesn't heal anyone attacking them, and doesn't put me into combat with them.
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Because it's a spell targetted against an enemy? Every spell works this way, including Detect Magic, why should Mind Vision be any different?
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - lfd - 04-24-2005
Quark,Apr 24 2005, 04:48 PM Wrote:Because it's a spell targetted against an enemy? Every spell works this way, including Detect Magic, why should Mind Vision be any different?
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Because the manual says that on a normal server, besides typing /pvp you'll enable your pvp flag by:
"Attacking an NPC of an opposing faction [...]"
"Attacking an opposing player that attacked a friendly NPC"
"Aiding a player engaged in PvP combat"
"Entering an enemy capital city"
and I don't think Mind Vision counts as any of those. I don't actually think Detect Magic counts as any of those things, either, and I'd say that that shouldn't flag you for PvP either, although that's a bit more of a borderline case (and puts you into combat, I suspect: I don't know, though).
I don't mind that it does flag me now that I know about it, but the manual is at worst wrong, and certainly misleading, since Mind Vision is _not_ an attack because it doesn't put you into combat.
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - Raelynn - 04-25-2005
lfd,Apr 24 2005, 02:22 PM Wrote:Because the manual says that on a normal server, besides typing /pvp you'll enable your pvp flag by:
"Attacking an NPC of an opposing faction [...]"
"Attacking an opposing player that attacked a friendly NPC"
"Aiding a player engaged in PvP combat"
"Entering an enemy capital city"
and I don't think Mind Vision counts as any of those. I don't actually think Detect Magic counts as any of those things, either, and I'd say that that shouldn't flag you for PvP either, although that's a bit more of a borderline case (and puts you into combat, I suspect: I don't know, though).
I don't mind that it does flag me now that I know about it, but the manual is at worst wrong, and certainly misleading, since Mind Vision is _not_ an attack because it doesn't put you into combat.
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I've learned to never trust the manual of a MMORPG. They are written so far in advance before everything is hammered out completely, so certain things aren't totally true. They could've once felt that certain spells shouldn't flag PvP, and then dropped it due to the realization that someone somehow exploited it or that they just felt all spells should flag as it is an unwarranted action towards a member of the opposing faction. You never know :)
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - savaughn - 04-26-2005
lfd,Apr 24 2005, 11:22 AM Wrote:Because the manual says that on a normal server, besides typing /pvp you'll enable your pvp flag by:
"Attacking an NPC of an opposing faction [...]"
"Attacking an opposing player that attacked a friendly NPC"
"Aiding a player engaged in PvP combat"
"Entering an enemy capital city"
and I don't think Mind Vision counts as any of those. I don't actually think Detect Magic counts as any of those things, either, and I'd say that that shouldn't flag you for PvP either, although that's a bit more of a borderline case (and puts you into combat, I suspect: I don't know, though).
I don't mind that it does flag me now that I know about it, but the manual is at worst wrong, and certainly misleading, since Mind Vision is _not_ an attack because it doesn't put you into combat.
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Mind Vision and Detect Magic are information gathering spells that give you an advantage and thus flag you for PvP - falling into the "aiding a player" category. Similarly, the Hunter's Mark which does no damage in and of itself flags the hunter for PvP, so on and so forth. If you cast a spell of any sort on a PvP enabled individual it is assumed that you did so for a PvP reason and you are flagged.
Why would Blizz add PvP and not Battlegrounds? - lfd - 04-26-2005
savaughn,Apr 26 2005, 01:20 PM Wrote:If you cast a spell of any sort on a PvP enabled individual it is assumed that you did so for a PvP reason and you are flagged.
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Any sort of PvP enabled _enemy_, perhaps. I can cast mind vision all I like on the PVP Enabled town guards of my own faction and not be flagged, regardless of whether they're in combat or not.