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The Defense Warrior in PvP - Ynir - 05-02-2005
Spangles is a defense spec warrior. Her build is posted here:
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...st=&#entry72808
This is, deliberately, a one-sided sales job for a mode of play that is obscure even to most warriors. Spangles is built to intercept a mob, garner aggro, and lock the mob down until help arrives. She is also designed to pull mobs away from priests, warlocks and mages who have earned special attention from the enemy when their shackling, mezzing and sheeping tactics expire.
Defense tactics are most useful in the raid environment, and also in 5 man groups. Spangles gets many invites to groups that look specifically for a defense warrior. So, defense spec entails no sacrifice for the lost DPS, except in PvP.
This has become a major exception with the advent of the honor system, and the battlegrounds to come. It is not clear to me that Spangles can remain defensive if PvP replaces raiding as the main activity that generates loot and status.
Every class has forums where we may read gripes about its shortcomings, and the warrior is no exception:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post219043
This is the conventional wisdom about the warrior's role in PvP. I am starting this thread to generate some specific ideas about how talents, skills and weapons might be optimized to make a defense warrior viable for PvP.
We all know how to raid, 5 man, and solo by lvl 60, but PvP seems to be the next frontier, and at present I am not sure how to prepare for it.
Many of you discussed this issue in the first thread that I linked, so I would welcome your posting a url to your previous contribution, by way of collimating the relevant information.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Darian - 05-02-2005
noto bene:
The idea that a defensive-specced warrior is useless in PvP is accurate in one respect (1v1), but I think it's grossly overstated when it comes to what the meat of PvP is going to be when Battlegrounds comes out. (I could be wrong, and Artega's bound to have an alternate take on this, but it's my perception after finally having gotten to do some large-scale coordinated PvP.)
Where the defensive-specced warrior is flawed in mass PvP is that taunt is useless against real people. This in turn impacts the defensive warrior's ability to generate rage. This is not a minor concern, but isn't crippling. The other aspects of the defensive warrior -- being able to stay alive, being able to stun and silence effectively -- are still relevant, and the defensive warrior is still able to switch to other stances to deal damage when necessary. And in cases where you're in mass PvP while there are enemy NPCs involved as well, you are still just as important; it's your job to deal with the NPCs so your teammates can concentrate on the other players. (You lose out on personal PvP benefits, but isn't defensive tanking all about sacrifice anyway?)
If you're going to continue participating in end-game PvE, and your best-suited role in that situation is as protection, I wouldn't even consider respeccing out of defensive just for PvP, but that's just me.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Artega - 05-03-2005
Mass PvP for me is 10v10 or 15v15 at most. My connection and system get bogged down when there's more than 40 or so people in the same area (I positively LOATHE venturing to Orgrimmar), so I can't speak about effectiveness in true mass PvP.
As for ANY kind of PvP, you're going to want Free Action Potions if there are ANY Paladins and/or Rogues about. Your healers and dispellers will be sheeped, you will be stunned, and you will all die a horrible death. Alternately, they'll just sheep YOU (which Free Action does not affect) and gangbang the healers and dispellers and then finish you off in the end.
The role of the Warrior in PvP is surprisingly similar to the Warrior's role in PvE; you pick the targets (you play both tank and main assist in PvP), you initiate the charge, and you generally just throw smelly brown substances at the enemy's fan. You are the disruptor, and anything you can do to amplify that ability is great for PvP. If you feel a 5-second stun (that can be blocked, parried, dodged, or otherwise evaded) and a 3-second Silence effect (which, admittedly, is DAMN good) are worth sacrificing a massive amount of damage output, then go for it. Just be aware that you're going to play entirely defensively, and sometimes that's just not an option for PvP.
Protection brings a potent stun and effective silence effect to the table, but hampers your damage output, and causes you to lose a few particularly devastating abilties in exchange.
Going Arms (Arms/Fury 31/20 being the most effective) brings Mortal Strike to the table (which is a large dps boost PLUS a non-dispellable healing debuff) and a great snare (with Axes, Maces, or Swords), along with versatility (Tactical Mastery, which you should have if you want to be at all serious about PvP.)
Going Fury (Fury/Arms 34/17 being the most popular) brings lots of Fear-immunity to the table (enhanced Berserker Rage and Death Wish) and improvements to vital PvP skills (Improved Execute and Improved Intercept), but it DOES lack the overall DPS of the standard Arms build. Try both, and see which you're more comfortable with.
Protection IS viable in PvP, but you'll often find yourself wanting, especially if you lack Tactical Mastery. Switch+Bloodrage works in PvE, but it simply won't cut it for PvP :)
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Ynir - 05-03-2005
I'm beginning to think that I have two options: (1) respec arms/fury or (2) remain defensive, but not (3) tweak defensive talents for PvP.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - lemekim - 05-03-2005
Ynir,May 3 2005, 03:02 PM Wrote:I'm beginning to think that I have two options: (1) respec arms/fury or (2) remain defensive, but not (3) tweak defensive talents for PvP.
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If you are planning to participate in PvP actively, you probably should switch to Arms/Fury. The amount of mitigation that you lose is small, and the places where the extra mitigation would really help (Molten Core, Raid bosses), most of the defensive abilities do not really help much (or at all) anyway.
You can go 31/5/15, which will really give you pretty much all the defensive spells you will need for any tanking job (again, stuns, disarm, shield bash do not work in places where you really need them most, and everywhere else you can easily tank even with just arms/fury), and you get quite a bit of damage increase.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Artega - 05-03-2005
31/5/15 is a great spec if you feel that you'd be out of your element without some Protection talents. You still get Mortal Strike, a weapon specialization, Tactical Mastery, and possibly Improved Hamstring (depending your weapon of choice) from the Arms line, and Cruelty from the Fury line, while maintaining the bulk of the important Protection talents.
If you're willing to completely drop all Protection talents, 31/20 Arms/Fury is definitely where it's at. A critical enraged Mortal Strike can very easily do more than 1200 damage post-Armor, and it also carries a healing debuff, AND it's instant.
To help you out a bit, here's a selection of great, easily-acquired weapons for all of the weapon classes you can specialize in:
For Axes: Dreadforge Retaliator. Drops off the Emperor in BRD, so it's relatively easy to get. DPS is a little low, but the damage itself is what we're concerned with: 149-225 is one of the best for the easily-acquired axes. Alternately, you could grab The Nicker from BRS, and although it has a decent proc and even higher damage, it lacks the equip effects of the Retaliator. Your choice, really. Obviously, Arcanite Reaper is your ideal choice, but at 20 Arcanite Bars, it's an expensive venture.
For Maces: Malown's Slam. Downright obscene damage (158-238), plus a nifty mez on proc. If you like maces more than axes, this would be your best bet. Hammer of the Titans is the "ultimate" as far as maces are concerned, but it'll be even more expensive than the Reaper to acquire, and it's less powerful (though some would argue the stun-proc would make up for that lack.)
For Polearms: Both Peacemaker and Blackhand Doomsaw are excellent choices. Be aware that taking Polearms means you can't take Improved Hamstring, however. Be sure to read mawr's post on the Peacemaker page when deciding which one you want. Alternately, get both, and then see for yourself which one you like more. There is no "ultimate" for Polearms, in the sense that smiths can make Reapers and Hammers, though both choices above are quite nice.
For Swords: Barbarous Blade. Alternately, you could go for Warblade of Caer Darrow, given that it has a higher base damage, plus Frost damage. It's at the end of a fairly lengthy Scholomance quest chain, so it's going to be more difficult to acquire than Barbarous Blade. You could even make do with Stoneslayer if you were desperate, but if that's your only choice, I'd highly advise you to pick a different weapon type.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Xanthix - 05-03-2005
My friend and I are your typical def-spec Warrior/holy-spec Priest duo. After 2 weeks of trying out PVP, I am beginning to think they the best solution for our types of classes is to always team up in PVP. With healing/shielding/dispelling, the Warrior can actually live long enough to get rage and do some damage. With a tank/escort/interrupter, the healer can do what they do best and contribute some DOTs and nukes as well.
I very much agree with def-spec Warrior complaints for PVP, since most of the talents become worthless in a raid PVP environment, but if people stop zerging so much and start using the same strategy and teamwork we use in instances, perhaps we can all profit. :)
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Mavfin - 05-04-2005
Xanthix,May 3 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote:My friend and I are your typical def-spec Warrior/holy-spec Priest duo. After 2 weeks of trying out PVP, I am beginning to think they the best solution for our types of classes is to always team up in PVP. With healing/shielding/dispelling, the Warrior can actually live long enough to get rage and do some damage. With a tank/escort/interrupter, the healer can do what they do best and contribute some DOTs and nukes as well.
I very much agree with def-spec Warrior complaints for PVP, since most of the talents become worthless in a raid PVP environment, but if people stop zerging so much and start using the same strategy and teamwork we use in instances, perhaps we can all profit. :)
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And that's the whole thing about defensive warrior in PvP. A protection/defensive warrior is all about managing mobs and aggro. Guess what? It means *nothing* in PvP. So, all your best tricks are useless, except maybe to keep the guards off your buddies....and I bet that doesn't get you any points.
My advice to someone who wants to keep an instance tank setup, *and* do PvP raiding, is to use two different characters for it. They're not even remotely the same thing. Now, an Arms/Fury setup is all set up to do damage, and will work fine.
It all depends on what you want. Main tank duties, or PvP champ. I think if you try to do both, you'll end up not that great at either one, if you're talking about tanking endgame instances. Now, for SM, or VC, or Razorfen Downs, or whatever, an arms/fury warrior with a shield and defensive stance can do the job just fine. Just means the healer will have to heal you a little more often, but no major deal.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Xanthix - 05-04-2005
Mavfin,May 4 2005, 07:22 AM Wrote:And that's the whole thing about defensive warrior in PvP. A protection/defensive warrior is all about managing mobs and aggro. Guess what? It means *nothing* in PvP. So, all your best tricks are useless, except maybe to keep the guards off your buddies....and I bet that doesn't get you any points.[right][snapback]76264[/snapback][/right]On the one hand, I agree with you - my friend is our warrior and has pointed out how many of their skills and talents are useless in PvP. It's totally true that you are not going to get as many contribution points with Shield Discipline as you will with Mortal Strike or Sweeping Strikes.
But on the other hand, I am in a similar situation as a holy-spec priest, and I think we can at least be decently effective in PvP (especially battlegrounds) if we stick together. Yeah, the defensive warrior can't be the whirling death machine that an arms/fury guy is. But they can still use Shield Bash, Disarm, and numerous stun effects to their advantage, and with healing backup they should have a much greater life expectancy than a fury warrior.
Neither of us is going to get the contribution points that a mage can get by walking into a battlefield and spamming AOE, but we can at least have fun. And given how bad warriors have had it at the mercy of the nerf bat, having fun is a major step forward!
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Mavfin - 05-05-2005
Xanthix,May 4 2005, 05:05 PM Wrote:[snip]
And given how bad warriors have had it at the mercy of the nerf bat, having fun is a major step forward!
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Fun is never something I've had trouble finding with my tank-spec warrior. And I've never felte they were over-nerfed. Fun is where you find it. I have found at 50+ that less content is solo-friendly, but much of it is still duo-friendly, so, I've started playing her when my duo buddy is on, and leveling one of my many alts when she's not.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Artega - 05-05-2005
Xanthix,May 4 2005, 06:05 PM Wrote:But on the other hand, I am in a similar situation as a holy-spec priest, and I think we can at least be decently effective in PvP (especially battlegrounds) if we stick together. Yeah, the defensive warrior can't be the whirling death machine that an arms/fury guy is. But they can still use Shield Bash, Disarm, and numerous stun effects to their advantage, and with healing backup they should have a much greater life expectancy than a fury warrior.
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In PvP, Warriors die from magic attacks, not melee attacks. All the Protection talents in the world won't make even a shred of difference when you're being magebombed or kited. A AF warrior will last every bit as long as an Protection warrior in almost all cases (the single exception being versus a group comprised solely of physical damage dealers, which will NEVER happen.)
AF warriors can Disarm, they can Shield Bash (with a weapon switch macro, though Pummel works just fine), and they can stun (with Intercept, and to a lesser extent, Charge.)
The Warrior's primary job in PvP is to be a shock trooper; rush in, fear-bomb, and do as much damage as possible before death. With sufficient healing, death won't happen. It's much easier to deal significant (and often-lethal) damage as AF, rather than Protection.
Then again, do what's fun for you; it's your $15 USD a month, after all.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - MongoJerry - 05-10-2005
lemekim,May 3 2005, 09:32 AM Wrote:If you are planning to participate in PvP actively, you probably should switch to Arms/Fury. The amount of mitigation that you lose is small, and the places where the extra mitigation would really help (Molten Core, Raid bosses), most of the defensive abilities do not really help much (or at all) anyway.
Um, being a healer in a group who frequently raids Molten Core and Onyxia, I can tell you that the difference between having a main tank is protection specced versus arms/fury spec'd is enormous. Not only is it the damage mitigation, but also the ability for protection spec warriors to lock down or regain aggro is impressive (improved shield bash makes a huge difference in aggro generation), even after aggro gets lost due to fears, knockbacks, teleports, and other devices.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Olon97 - 05-11-2005
MongoJerry,May 10 2005, 12:36 PM Wrote:Um, being a healer in a group who frequently raids Molten Core and Onyxia, I can tell you that the difference between having a main tank is protection specced versus arms/fury spec'd is enormous. Not only is it the damage mitigation, but also the ability for protection spec warriors to lock down or regain aggro is impressive (improved shield bash makes a huge difference in aggro generation), even after aggro gets lost due to fears, knockbacks, teleports, and other devices.Improved shield bash (extra aggro from silence) or shield discipline + shield bash (extra aggro from the shield disc. bonus)?
I left my fury/protection build at 60 to do fury/arms for gold farming. Now that I have my mount, I'm itching to go back to a mostly protection build (I miss all the stuns vs. 5-man trash mobs).
Blizzard has hinted that they are working on changes to make Protection and Fury trees more attractive, and don't tend to give out free respecs, so I'm holding out until I can see what's in store. If things don't change too much, my current preference is an 11/29/11 build.
Although I may have finally caught the PvP bug last night (despite having been on a PvP server since release, never got into it before), so we'll see. Intercept+hamstring+conc. blow would be mighty handy for pinning the MA's target down for focus fire.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Thawwing Light - 05-11-2005
Olon97,May 10 2005, 08:56 PM Wrote:Improved shield bash (extra aggro from silence) or shield discipline + shield bash (extra aggro from the shield disc. bonus)?
I left my fury/protection build at 60 to do fury/arms for gold farming. Now that I have my mount, I'm itching to go back to a mostly protection build (I miss all the stuns vs. 5-man trash mobs).
Blizzard has hinted that they are working on changes to make Protection and Fury trees more attractive, and don't tend to give out free respecs, so I'm holding out until I can see what's in store. If things don't change too much, my current preference is an 11/29/11 build.
Although I may have finally caught the PvP bug last night (despite having been on a PvP server since release, never got into it before), so we'll see. Intercept+hamstring+conc. blow would be mighty handy for pinning the MA's target down for focus fire.
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Personally playing a defensively specced Warrior going 11/29/11 (though currently 11/13/11, as the Arms and Fury components help a LOT early on), I honestly feel I need to say that I don't feel too gimped in PvP. Sure, I can't spam Mortal Strike, and I can't Intercept as often, but Last Stand is a nice trick, effectively giving me an instant 600 heal. I don't have Concussive Blow or imp. Shield Bash quite yet, but a build that still includes Tactical Mastery will probably be viable PvP... and I'm sure someone out there has a 30Fury/21Prot build without it that works fine too.
In summary, Warriors aren't half bad in PvP. I'd say, more than anything else, the most important thing you can do as a PvP warrior is work with a priest. Sure, mortal strike, imp. hamstring, and imp. intercept are nice... but I've been able to live without them
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Ynir - 05-12-2005
Spangles is now a Corporal (Rank 2) after a few evenings skermishing in the Barrens and in Durotar with small groups of friends. She is on Stormrage, a PvE server.
She has 71 honor kills, which is ironic because to my knowledge, she hasn't succeeded in killing anybody. She seems to earn her points simply by staying alive for short intervals on the battlefield, between runs fom the graveyard.
She hardly ever engages the enemy personally. Usually she is blown to bits by ranged attacks or ganked in a few seconds by death squads. Conversely, her most effective combat tactic is to blow huge holes in distant targets with her [Flawless Arcanite Rifle].
PvP on our server is currently not a battle to respec for, it's a food fight.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Artega - 05-13-2005
Be aware all Warrior stuns share identical stun timers. If you Intercept before your Concussion Blow, you'll get a 3s stun followed by a 2.5s stun, not a 5s stun.
Ironically, I think I'll go full Protection soon, just to try an utterly different sort of play for a little while :)
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Rinnhart - 05-13-2005
Artega,May 12 2005, 06:19 PM Wrote:Ironically, I think I'll go full Protection soon, just to try an utterly different sort of play for a little while :)
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Sitting on my Holy/Protection spec looking at Retribution the same way.
Just time for a change.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Taeme - 05-23-2005
That talking in third person thing is mind-numbing.
I'm protection spec'd right now since I've been doing a lot of raiding and don't solo. I don't actively PVP, but I have to admit while it's definitely worse - no doubt about it - than normal Arms or Fury centric builds for PVP, there is something to be said about a rogue firing off a sinister strike and seeing the YOU BLOCKED messaged pop up. It's basically only very good when fighting Paladins, Rogues and other warriors - Otherwise you've lost so much burst damage and sustained DPS you can't really do much to the other classes.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - Olon97 - 05-24-2005
Just respecced to 11 arms, 29 prot, 11 fury on the test server, and I enjoyed it so much I ended up switching over on the live server, despite the currently wasted points in iron will. Ironically, my PvE farming is not noticably slower than the 30 fury/ 21 arms build I was messing around with before (I do miss the novelty of Sweeping Strikes+Cleave). My PvE aggro control took a noticable boost as expected.
In group PvP, you need tac mastery for quick access to charge/intercept depending on which has its timer up / even works at the time. Intercept / hamstring / conc blow on a high value target while the other 4 members of your kill squad focus fire is a deadly combo in CTF.
Piercing howl also ends up being invaluable in certain PvP situations. Give me TM and PH and 29 other randomly chosen talents, and I think I can contribute to group PvP. Mortal Strike builds are still king for pure 1on1 PvP vs. healing classes of course.
The Defense Warrior in PvP - lemekim - 05-24-2005
Mortal strike is probably still the best group build as well, if for no other reason then 50% healing debuff. Of course, if you already have a MS warrior in the group, then having an array of stuns can be quite good.