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Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - GentlemanLoser - 08-18-2005
Hi all.
I made a similar post to this on the European Druid forums, and was mostly replied with "But you can melee with your forms..."
I've got a level 34 Pure Balance Spec Druid, and have now become frustrated by the lack of DD spells I have. Ignoring Roots (which is a root with some added small damage, not reallt a DD spell - also decause of diminishing returns...) All Druids have access to Three Direct Damage Spells. Wrath, Moonfire and Starfire. In my opinion, Wrath is just a mini version of Starfire, leaving us with really two different untalented spells. We get a third, Hurricane, as a 31 point Talent.
Consider Priests, the other 'Primary Healer' class (Ho hum, what do Blizzard do when they can't figure out how to make thier hybrid class work? Re label it as Primary Healer. Not only do Druids suffer the Hybrid penalty of not being able to use thier Ranged weapon slot, but as no longer ture Hybrids, Druids also have thier weapon timer re set by spells, unlike true hybrids...).
Priests (and I'll look at NE Priest compared to NE Druid) have access to five non talented DD spells. Smite, SW:P, Mindblast, Mana burn and Starshards. On top of that, they have the potential to learn another three from Talents. Mind Flay, Holy Fire and Holy Nova.
Not even comparing mana efficency or damage, it seems backward to me that a pirmary 'Healing' spec Priest can have 7 DD spells of various effect compared to a 'Balance' spec Druid's four (or three if you discount Wrath).
The most common response I received was that yes, this is fine as Druids can Melee in forms, Priests can't and anyway Priest can only cast spells, so they should have more of them.
I think the problem is the fudamental way the Driud forms act against each other.
As a Balance Druid, I have +Int/+Spell Dmage Gear. I have base Str and Agility. Shifting to a melee form is redundant. It makes me worse. On top of that, If I have mana left to shift, I would be better using it on a heal, root, last ditch damage spell or shifting to travel form to run away. Bear and Cat serve no purpose for me (apart from the generic uses of Stealth, Dash, Track H and the ocasional Bash...).
But what happens if I stay in Caster form? I can't melee, I only hit with a weapon to hope for am Omen Proc. BS when I get it might be nice, but as after my Moonfire is ticking away, my primary means of damage is Starefire/Wrath, BS will make these even slower...
What is a Druid meant to do? I assume Blizz entertained the notion that Druids would all, regardless of spec, shift into an animal form any time a mob get close enough to worry them. But in application, that doesn't work.
I've also been disheartened by a recent American Druid post claiming a Priest with PW:S, IF and Cloth armour whacking away with a staff out performed a non feral Bear in Melee.
So why does a Caster class, that not only can heal but out melee a Druid when spec'd as a Primary Healer have more versatility in nuking as a purely damage spec'd (as that's really all the Balance tree does) 'Balance' Druid?
As Blizz doesn't seem to invisigion Druids as damage capable casters, what is the Balance tree for?
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - lfd - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 05:27 PM Wrote:I'll look at NE Priest compared to NE Druid)[right][snapback]86503[/snapback][/right]
This isn't the fairest of comparisons if you're talking in pure numbers-of-skills. The utility of the skills is far more important. I don't know what kind of damage starshards does as I've never played a nelf priest, but I would keep your arguments away from discussions of the racial and class-racial skills, as we all know some suck hard while others are excellent. Instead of worrying about how many different DD spells each class has, worry about how useful the individual skills are.
Holy Fire has a longer casting time than either wrath or starfire (even with 5 points in the cast-time-reduction talent, I think), and few priests get it because of the very poor damage it kicks out when you've eventually managed to cast it. If you're specced into holy, odds are you don't _need_ to be doing damage anyway.
"Primary Healing Spec" priests will not have mind flay, as it requires 10 points into the shadow tree that are better used elsewhere, especially if you've gone down holy as far as holy nova. Treesh will go into the delights of holy nova (never tried it, but I've seen priests in our raids use it well); it's mostly an instant AOE heal, rather than a DD spell.
The caster druid form is not "damage specced". The feral combat form - and actually using those animal forms you've just written off dismissively - is the damage spec.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Xanthix - 08-18-2005
I don't know if it's fair to say Priests have 7 direct damage spells:
- Starshards is Night Elf only, and could be considered a weaker version of Mind Flay.<>
- Mana burn can only be used on targets with mana, while Druid DD spells have no restrictions.<>
- If Wrath and Starfire are the same spell, then Smite and Mindblast basically are the same too.<>
- If Roots doesn't count because it's primarily a root, then maybe Holy Nova shouldn't because it's primarily an AOE heal?<>
[st]I agree with you that Druids in caster form may have less options than Priests, but I think that is the fundamental cost of being the "jack of all trades" class. Druids are supposed to be good at healing, good at tanking, and good at DPS, but not the best at any of the three.
A Druid can tank as a bear, do DPS as a cat, and as a caster can heal and nuke. A priest can only heal or nuke. Maybe that's why Priests have more attack spells than Druid caster form.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Kevin - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:I've got a level 34 Pure Balance Spec Druid, and have now become frustrated by the lack of DD spells I have. Ignoring Roots (which is a root with some added small damage, not reallt a DD spell - also decause of diminishing returns...) All Druids have access to Three Direct Damage Spells. Wrath, Moonfire and Starfire. In my opinion, Wrath is just a mini version of Starfire, leaving us with really two different untalented spells. We get a third, Hurricane, as a 31 point Talent.
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Wrath is not a mini starfire. One is nature the other is arcene damage. A balance druid is most likey going to have the improved wrath talent so it will be 1.5 second cast vs 3.5s cast for starfire. Starfire is an opener, wrath is you DD damage dealer. 1.5 second cast is fast enough that you can avoid a lot of cast stuttering as well. Hurricane is a pretty good AoE attack especially with barkskin to allow you to channel it. The priest Holy Nova does not compare.
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:Consider Priests, the other 'Primary Healer' class (Ho hum, what do Blizzard do when they can't figure out how to make thier hybrid class work? Re label it as Primary Healer. Not only do Druids suffer the Hybrid penalty of not being able to use thier Ranged weapon slot, but as no longer ture Hybrids, Druids also have thier weapon timer re set by spells, unlike true hybrids...).
Priests (and I'll look at NE Priest compared to NE Druid) have access to five non talented DD spells. Smite, SW:P, Mindblast, Mana burn and Starshards. On top of that, they have the potential to learn another three from Talents. Mind Flay, Holy Fire and Holy Nova.
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And most priest won't have more than 4 DD spells. Smite can't be cast in close combat without horrible stuttering because it is a 2.5 second cast. So that takes that out for anything but a shot while a mob is running to them. Mindblast can be cast in combat but has a long cooldown, even talented. So untalented the druid wins this contest. Priests get the melee timer reset by casts as well. Mana burn is a limited set of opponents. Holy Fire is an opener only because of cast time. Mind Flay is good but channeled. Shield does allow all these to be cast uninterrupted but shield is also not mana efficient and requires talents to be used constantly as well. Starshards is only available to one alliance priest.
Now admittedly a heavy shadow investment by a priest is going to help them a lot. I haven't looked it closely enough but it could make them more powerful than a balance druid for DD. But your arguments are not as simple as you made them.
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:As a Balance Druid, I have +Int/+Spell Dmage Gear. I have base Str and Agility. Shifting to a melee form is redundant. It makes me worse. On top of that, If I have mana left to shift, I would be better using it on a heal, root, last ditch damage spell or shifting to travel form to run away. Bear and Cat serve no purpose for me (apart from the generic uses of Stealth, Dash, Track H and the ocasional Bash...).
But what happens if I stay in Caster form? I can't melee, I only hit with a weapon to hope for am Omen Proc. BS when I get it might be nice, but as after my Moonfire is ticking away, my primary means of damage is Starefire/Wrath, BS will make these even slower...
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Even in my caster gear I will use cat and bear form. Cat form will still do good damage to a cloth wearer even in caster gear because of the static damage portion of some of the attacks. There is no reason you can't stealth open in cat form slap a small DoT on with a quick one point finisher, shift out and probably watch the thing root itself, back out starfire, wrath and moonfire it to death.
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:What is a Druid meant to do? I assume Blizz entertained the notion that Druids would all, regardless of spec, shift into an animal form any time a mob get close enough to worry them. But in application, that doesn't work.
I've also been disheartened by a recent American Druid post claiming a Priest with PW:S, IF and Cloth armour whacking away with a staff out performed a non feral Bear in Melee.
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No you don't shift to feral form you use roots to kite the mob, which a priest can't do.
If the thing is hitting to hard or you can't root, yes you do shift to bear after casting rejuv and maybe regrowth depending and absorb more damage, use frenzied regen to heal or slow incoming damage more while you get mana back. Bear form DPS is not great but even in caster gear the extra damage mitigation you get from. You don't use it all the time but you can use it similar to how a priest uses shield and you can fight one or two slower fights in bear to regen mana while that priest is sitting and drinking.
The priest may have done more damage, but I'd have to see the equipment and specs. I'd like to know which one sustained longer (and the druid can certianly pop to caster to heal). If you know you are going to go bear form you put on your feral gear and you go. Most classes carry multiple equipment sets, druids should too, and they should probably start out at an earlier level doing so. Heck I solo in my feral gear most of the time simply because the extra mana isn't needed as much but I'm 34 restoration / 17 feral (cat focused) and I want my versatility to be as strong as possible.
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:So why does a Caster class, that not only can heal but out melee a Druid when spec'd as a Primary Healer have more versatility in nuking as a purely damage spec'd (as that's really all the Balance tree does) 'Balance' Druid?
As Blizz doesn't seem to invisigion Druids as damage capable casters, what is the Balance tree for?
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I don't agree with your premise, though again my L60 druid is not balance spec. I don't think a discipline/holy priest (your spec as primary healer comment) can out nuke a balance druid either but I'd have to look at it. I personally think you are using wrath wrong as well.
Omen of Clarity does have issues, I will grant you that, which is part of the reason I skipped it and went feral anyway with my 17 extra points.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - MongoJerry - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 10:27 AM Wrote:As a Balance Druid, I have +Int/+Spell Dmage Gear. I have base Str and Agility. Shifting to a melee form is redundant. It makes me worse. On top of that, If I have mana left to shift, I would be better using it on a heal, root, last ditch damage spell or shifting to travel form to run away. Bear and Cat serve no purpose for me (apart from the generic uses of Stealth, Dash, Track H and the ocasional Bash...)...
What is a Druid meant to do? I assume Blizz entertained the notion that Druids would all, regardless of spec, shift into an animal form any time a mob get close enough to worry them. But in application, that doesn't work.
I'm sorry to say such a non-Lurker thing, but what comes most prominently to mind is "Learn to play your class." If you don't understand how to shift forms and when, then you need to practice it, because shifting forms in combat is a fundamental part of the class. Sure, you can entangle roots and cast spells on mobs, but when they come close, you can bear form and whack away at them while taking small amounts of damage due to the bear's armor and health bonuses. Then, when your health is low, you can shift out and heal yourself and either go back to caster mode to finish off a mob or switch back to bear form. What's more, you regen mana the entire time while in bear form and can even partly heal yourself in bear form when you've generated enough rage.
Quote:I've also been disheartened by a recent American Druid post claiming a Priest with PW:S, IF and Cloth armour whacking away with a staff out performed a non feral Bear in Melee.
So why does a Caster class, that not only can heal but out melee a Druid when spec'd as a Primary Healer have more versatility in nuking as a purely damage spec'd (as that's really all the Balance tree does) 'Balance' Druid?
You won't see priests walking around with 8000 armor as I've seen many bear druids do. That plus their health bonuses make taking down a bear druid a very tough proposition. The bear form is designed for tanking rather than damage dealing, so it makes sense that the damage being dealt is small. That's the price you pay for being able to take a boat-load of damage. If you want to deal melee damage, switch to cat form.
By the way, the priest isn't a purely caster class, like a mage or warlock. Priests get a bonus to attack power from Inner Fire, because priests do in fact whack away at mobs when they're soloing. SW:Pain lasts 18-24 seconds and Mind Blast has an 8-second cooldown. Smite, meanwhile, has a long casting time that can get stuttered, which reduces its dps significantly, so it's common for priests to save mana by not bothering to use it at all. So, fights become SW:Pain, Mind Blast, whack, whack, whack, Mind Blast, whack, whack, whack.... OK, well, we used to whack away at things until we got wand auto-shoot. So, now solo fights go like this: SW:Pain, Mind Blast, wand, wand, wand, Mind Blast, Renew, Flash Heal, wand, wand.... But anyway, for a long time, priests were actually expected to have melee attacks as part of their overall dps package. This is why we deal more melee damage than mages and warlocks, and it doesn't surprise me that when a druid chooses to use a caster or tanking form that they don't deal as much melee damage as a priest. The druid melee damage dealing form is supposed to be the cat form.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - GentlemanLoser - 08-18-2005
:)
I was comparing alliance Druid to Priest, which is NE to NE.
I'm not overly convinced that Wrath is a better choice over Starfire, and Starfire should just be relegated to a puller. If we ignore the slight stun chance through talents, Starfire receives + Damage, - Mana cost and get the full amount of any + Spell Damage equipment, which I've been stocking up on. Well, I'll admit by preference is skewed, as I'm using + Arcane Damage items, as generic + Spell Damage items are hard to come by at my level. Maybe the difference will even out with better gear, but at the moment, Starfire is hitting for 300+ and Crit'ing for 500+ without Vengeance. All for about 66 more mana and 2 second cast speed over Wrath.
I know Priests don't have to take any of the three Talented spells, so at the minimum they more Spells than an untalented Druid (I'll ignore Starshards for the moment), and can get three more, if they spec as a Primary Healer (31 points into Holy). With Mind Flay as 11 points into Shadow, it is possible to get it along with Holy Nova.
I'm not meaning to compare spell for spell, just point out that Priests have more options available to them. Even if one of thier spells is situational (target has to have a mana bar) or another does weak damage (Holy Nova. It has other benefits).
"The caster druid form is not "damage specced". The feral combat form - and actually using those animal forms you've just written off dismissively - is the damage spec."
Then why does about half the Balance tree improve damage? What is it supposed to do? Plus spell crit damage. Plus Crit on Moonfire. Plus Damage on Moonfire and Starfire. Minus casting speed on Wrath. Minus mana cost of Moonfire and Starfire. All these Talents are basted around the 'Caster' form specialising to do damage with it's spells, as opposed to improving the damage of the Druids Melee forms.
"Druids are supposed to be good at healing, good at tanking, and good at DPS, but not the best at any of the three.
A Druid can tank as a bear, do DPS as a cat, and as a caster can heal and nuke. A priest can only heal or nuke. Maybe that's why Priests have more attack spells than Druid caster form."
As a Balance spec Druid, I'm ok at healing, and can't tank. Even if I shift to Bear. But I'm sure the answer to that is just carry around a + Str set of equipment and use Stancesets to automatically change your geat when you shift. Ugh... Doesn't that point to something being wrong?
A Druid can tank as a bear, when they Gear and spec for it.
A Priest can heal, nuke and melee (With PW:S and IF) better than out Caster form. But we're got Animal Forms right? Priests also have the option of specing to a form, which gives Damage reduction while not only still allowing them to use most of thier DD spells, but boost some of them as well. They give up healing for this, but so do Druids when they Shift to forms.
Spec'd as I am, I would never shift to an aminal, if only for the one reason that I loss the chance of an Omen Proc. Which could be another 500+ Starfire Crit.
I'd not thought about comparing totally untalented DD spells, and the Druid seems to be ahead with the slightly faster cast times, but bar using that on opening and maybe squeezing another in before the mob closes, all Priests still get the benefit of unhindered casting time in melee through PW:S, even if it's only once ever 30 seconds.
It's when talents are added that even a pure healer get's more DD options that a damage spec'd Druid.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - GentlemanLoser - 08-18-2005
MongoJerry,Aug 18 2005, 08:00 PM Wrote:I'm sorry to say such a non-Lurker thing, but what comes most prominently to mind is "Learn to play your class." If you don't understand how to shift forms and when, then you need to practice it, because shifting forms in combat is a fundamental part of the class. [right][snapback]86531[/snapback][/right]
:(
I'm not playing a hybrid Druid. I'm not playing a Healer. I'm not playing a Melee form Druid.
I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.
I have a mixture of +Int/+Sta and + Arcance Wrath gear. I get nearly an extra 100 Arcance Damage, all of which is applied to Starfire, some applied to Moonfire. I'll trade out for generic + Spell Damage gear as I get older, but for now + Arcane it is.
With a base Str and Agility, going into either form is not use to me. Not one bit. Unless I'm grinding grey mobs for a quest and want to use Cat to speed through them.
If I shift, I loss all the benifits of my gear and my talents. I can't even use my mediocre heals.
Why should there ever get a point that shifting to cat would be better for me than Root and kite or Travel form and run?
Edit: What I mean, is that if I've enough mana left to shift to an animal form, I've enough mana left to get one last damaging spell off, then wait for an omen proc to heal myself or let off another DD spell. Or at worst, a root/travel run.
*Sigh* My playstyle aside, and how well I know the class I play, I have a problem with a spec'd primary healer having more DD spells than a spec'd damage nuker...
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Warlock - 08-18-2005
Priests nuke a lot better then Druids (full Balance spec brings a Druid's caster dps up to about equal to an untalented priest). Priests heal somewhere between a lot better and roughly as well as Druids, depending on the relative values you assign Innervate, Flash Heal, Prayer of Healing and PW:S. Priest crowd control also gets a lot more use in instances.
On the other hand, Druids tank and stealth better than Priests.
I don't have a high opinion of the druid Balance talent tree as most of it's talents provide small percentage benefits to spells with a low base. Hopefully the rumored changes in 1.8 will include significant improvements here as well as to the Feral tree; ideally going deep into all three trees should be attractive, as should spreading across all three and not taking any final talent.
Until then, I'll be sticking with my heavy restoration, light feral build.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Arnath - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 03:08 PM Wrote:I'm not playing a hybrid Druid. I'm not playing a Healer. I'm not playing a Melee form Druid.If you're not using a large portion of the abilities of your class, you can't really expect to be dealing the same amount of damage as a player who is.
I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.
Arnath
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Artega - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 04:08 PM Wrote::(
I'm not playing a hybrid Druid. I'm not playing a Healer. I'm not playing a Melee form Druid.
I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.
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And honestly, that's probably why you're having issues with the class.
The Druid is a hybrid of multiple classes. If you're playing it ONLY as a nuker - ignoring its healing, tanking, and physical damage-dealing capabilities - you need to stop now and think about switching over to a Mage.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - KiloVictor - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 02:08 PM Wrote:I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.Playing a druid as a primary caster is a neat idea. Maybe it will be easier when you have enough specialized equipment for it, but I can imagine that it's frustrating right now. Unfortunately not wanting to be a cookie-cutter druid is likely to keep bringing at least a little bit of frustration with it - including "learn to play your class" comments. :(
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My brother plays a mid-50s druid alongside my 60 priest, and the thing that I notice about his character is the incredible durability -- he's just so much tougher to kill than I am, even in his caster form. In bear form, there's just no comparison. He can stay in fights that I would have long since lost or fled, even without specialized tanking gear. I don't know his spec exactly, but I know he's built as a healer, so I assume he's got very few points in Feral.
That's the hybrid advantage of course: better survivability comes at the cost of raw casting damage. Along with that, you get neat tricks like the ability to tank, stealth, do DPS, and switch between them all in combat. And then there's that whole ressurection in combat trick that makes you so valuable in the later stages of the game. My priest can't do any of those things, although I wish at times she could. :)
Really, comparing a druid to a priest in terms of casting damage is a lot like comparing my priest to my mage friends. I could get depressed by the fact that I can't do damage like them, but I can also revel in my ability to stay alive longer than they can. It's really a matter of choice.
So I guess what I'm saying is that instead of focusing on the fact that you can't do the same DPS as a "glass cannon" healer class and being frustrated, I'd suggest you revel in all the neat things you can do. I know it sounds simplistic, and I'm sorry for that, but the druid is a truly neat class that stands on its own. I get a bit depressed when people playing hybrids get down about the things they don't do as well as a specialist class, because playing a specialist class makes me really envy the variety of playing a hybrid. Perhaps the grass truly is always greener on the other side of the fence. :)
Kv
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Tuftears - 08-18-2005
I will say that the balance tree probably can stand some buffing - druids can do a good job healing, they can do a good job tanking (with the right gear) and doing cat-form damage (again with the right gear), but the balance tree stands out as the one thing that has just been totally ignored by druids, because it doesn't work, or doesn't give them anything they want. There's just precious little reason to spec balance.
I don't think it's a function of how many DD spells druids get, mind you. What we have isn't bad for direct damage - what we need is more variety of damage spells unlocked by balance tree talents. A balance-spec'd druid should be second to a mage in damage and utility. If they added a cone AOE or multishot at 21 points into balance, and buffed hurricane a bit, that would do the trick.
On the other hand, however, this strikes me a little as saying 'I have a concept I want to play, and the character class isn't letting me play that concept.' That would be like saying 'I want to play a mighty tank paladin' - the paladin class can tank a single mob okay, but multiple mobs are hard for paladins to hold, or aggro on a single mob when their damage is low and they have to beat a raid's worth of damagers. So many paladins may feel betrayed that in the end game, their class is relegated to healing/buffing/cleansing.
You can either abandon the class and find a different class that lets you play the concept you want - for nuking, get a mage or warlock, for tanking, get a warrior - or you can play the class the way that it's implemented. Or you can agitate for change.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - GentlemanLoser - 08-18-2005
Tuftears,Aug 18 2005, 10:58 PM Wrote:What we have isn't bad for direct damage - what we need is more variety of damage spells unlocked by balance tree talents. [right][snapback]86571[/snapback][/right]
:D
A idea that I had considered. If the Balance tree *is* supposed to support damage nuke casting, then access to at least one extra spell via a Talent (Even if that Talent is Hurricane) seperates use from our Melee shifting or Healing focused cousins would help define what the tree imagines Balance spec'd druids to be.
But I still can't feel right about a pure healer having more nuking versatility (not damage or efficiency) over a DD spec'd nuker.
I personally don't think I'm trying to play a druid as a concept not supported by the Class. Supported is not the correct word. To me, the Druid class suggests a Druid can be played as a DD nuker, but in implementation it falls short. I just highlighted that by the fact even healers has more DD versatility.
It's not about damage. Even if one of the spells (Wrath for example) was ramped up to be the biggest damaging thing in WoW, I think the Balance Druid would still be lacking.
Wrath, Moonfire, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath....
I'm not sure I'm explaining this well.. :(
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - lfd - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 08:01 PM Wrote:if they spec as a Primary Healer (31 points into Holy). With Mind Flay as 11 points into Shadow, it is possible to get it along with Holy Nova.[right][snapback]86532[/snapback][/right]
I know it's possible. My point was that there are more useful skills to consider in the discipline tree, even to the extent of going down that to 'divine spirit' being more useful (personal opinion) than going 31 in holy, when you get into the fights where regen matters.
Priests are lucky that they can still heal well with 0 points in the holy tree; but it's not as effective as having points in disc/holy. You will rarely be in a situation end-game where it will be useful to have mind flay as opposed to a heavier investment in discipline/holy. I hated giving it up, but it just wasn't used outside of solo play, which sadly there isn't enough of at high levels.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - lfd - 08-18-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 11:15 PM Wrote:But I still can't feel right about a pure healer having more nuking versatility (not damage or efficiency) over a DD spec'd nuker.[right][snapback]86572[/snapback][/right]
The druid isn't a nuker, DD spec'd or not. The druid isn't supposed to be. The priest isn't a nuker, either. They have moderate (disc/holy specced) to high (shadow specced) DD capability, which lets them essentially solo to 60. They have no AoE, so to call them nukers is inaccurate.
You seem to be complaining that you can't take a class designed to be adequate at everything and spec it using talents to be better than another class, in this case the priest. A druid's strength is in being able to shift into the role that is required in a given situation; when you need an extra tank on a melee mob, an extra healer to aid the priest[1], or some dps and stutter on that caster mob, the druid steps in.
[1] There are many situations where the druid makes for a better primary healer than the priest, especially if the priest has to be busy dispelling.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - GentlemanLoser - 08-19-2005
But obviously, if you had the choice, you would take a Feral Spec Druid over a non as the extra tank and a Restoration spec druid as the extra healer over a non.
Talents focus the innate versatility of the Druid Class into specific roles.
No one would claim that specing a Druid any way does, or should make it better than the parent class it emulates.
To get the most versatile and 'hybrid' druid should involve a spread of talents across the three trees, improving all aspects of the class, but not mastering any of them.
But the Druid isn't a nuker? Even though it get's a whole tree to emulate that parent class. (I appologise if 'nuker' isn't the correct term, I'm using it do denote a charcter who primary role is to kill things with DD spells.) What's that tree for then?
Focusing all the way into a tree should define the role of that character. Any class could step up and be a main tank. Those that don't have the skills to back up the job would be useless at it. Class skills, Talents and Gear define roles.
The Balance tree does nothing else other than to define a druid deep into it as a DD caster. (If for example a Druid went 31/0/20, they would be a primary DD caster, secondary healer)
"You seem to be complaining that you can't take a class designed to be adequate at everything and spec it using talents to be better than another class, in this case the priest."
I think this is my primary gripe. Surely specing a Druid in Balance should make it a 'better' DD caster than a holy Priest. I don't want to be better in every aspect to a priest. Holy Priests should be better healers than a Balance Druid, etc, but you can only do so much with limited tools...
I hope this explains it a little better! :)
Edit: spelling and grammer... >_<
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Warlock - 08-19-2005
If you just want to nuke and heal without ever using Feral forms.... Priests are better. If a Druid that never used forms was equal in overall power and character utilty to a Priest, then Druids that did use forms would be flat out better than Priests and no-one would ever play a Priest.
It sounds to me as though the Shaman is a better fit to your character concept than the Druid, with Priest as a second option or if you want to be Alliance.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Bob the Beholder - 08-19-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 08:08 PM Wrote::(
I'm not playing a hybrid Druid. I'm not playing a Healer. I'm not playing a Melee form Druid.
I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.
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I'm sorry, but that first bit up there is, essentially, saying, "I'm not playing a druid."
If you want to play a druid, but don't want to use healing or feral forms, then what you are doing is playing a weak mage. You can do that if that you want--nobody's gonna stop you. But you're going to be playing a third of a character.
And the three talent trees are in no way provided to make you choose between one of the druid's aspects. If you're balance specced, you can still heal quite well, and your dire bear form is still gonna have damn good armor and a bonus to aggro. If you're restoration specced, your spells will still do damage, and your cat form can still stealth and ravage.
Example: With my level 60 undead mage I used to play with a druid by the name of Mosma. Mosma was balance specced, back then. He and I two-manned about a third of Blackrock Depths--him tanking and healing and me killing stuff.
Another druid, by the name of Pamah, is restoration specced. Restoration/balance, in fact. Pamah tanked a Scholomance run I went on the other day. He was quite successful at it.
The whole point here is that a druid IS a hybrid. If you're playing a druid and thinking that you're not going to be a hybrid, then you are going to run into problems. (Not saying it's impossible, or that nobody's ever done it. Just that a well played druid will have a trick for every situation, and that trick may not be a damage spell.)
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Concillian - 08-19-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 01:08 PM Wrote::(
I'm not playing a hybrid Druid. I'm not playing a Healer. I'm not playing a Melee form Druid.
I'm concentrating on Balance Spellcasting to get the most out of my Talents spent in that tree.
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Well then you should be comparing it to a HOLY priest, a priest who doesn't use shadow because he's a HOLY priest. In that case he isn't going to be using SW:P or Mind blast or even Inner Fire because he's specced in HOLY.
Gimme a break.
Druids, less DD spells than even 'Holy' Priests - Roland - 08-23-2005
GentlemanLoser,Aug 18 2005, 12:27 PM Wrote:Hi all.
I made a similar post to this on the European Druid forums, and was mostly replied with "But you can melee with your forms..."
I've got a level 34 Pure Balance Spec Druid, and have now become frustrated by the lack of DD spells I have. Ignoring Roots (which is a root with some added small damage, not reallt a DD spell - also decause of diminishing returns...) All Druids have access to Three Direct Damage Spells. Wrath, Moonfire and Starfire. In my opinion, Wrath is just a mini version of Starfire, leaving us with really two different untalented spells. We get a third, Hurricane, as a 31 point Talent.
Consider Priests, the other 'Primary Healer' class (Ho hum, what do Blizzard do when they can't figure out how to make thier hybrid class work? Re label it as Primary Healer. Not only do Druids suffer the Hybrid penalty of not being able to use thier Ranged weapon slot, but as no longer ture Hybrids, Druids also have thier weapon timer re set by spells, unlike true hybrids...).
Priests (and I'll look at NE Priest compared to NE Druid) have access to five non talented DD spells. Smite, SW:P, Mindblast, Mana burn and Starshards. On top of that, they have the potential to learn another three from Talents. Mind Flay, Holy Fire and Holy Nova.
Not even comparing mana efficency or damage, it seems backward to me that a pirmary 'Healing' spec Priest can have 7 DD spells of various effect compared to a 'Balance' spec Druid's four (or three if you discount Wrath).
The most common response I received was that yes, this is fine as Druids can Melee in forms, Priests can't and anyway Priest can only cast spells, so they should have more of them.
I think the problem is the fudamental way the Driud forms act against each other.
As a Balance Druid, I have +Int/+Spell Dmage Gear. I have base Str and Agility. Shifting to a melee form is redundant. It makes me worse. On top of that, If I have mana left to shift, I would be better using it on a heal, root, last ditch damage spell or shifting to travel form to run away. Bear and Cat serve no purpose for me (apart from the generic uses of Stealth, Dash, Track H and the ocasional Bash...).
But what happens if I stay in Caster form? I can't melee, I only hit with a weapon to hope for am Omen Proc. BS when I get it might be nice, but as after my Moonfire is ticking away, my primary means of damage is Starefire/Wrath, BS will make these even slower...
What is a Druid meant to do? I assume Blizz entertained the notion that Druids would all, regardless of spec, shift into an animal form any time a mob get close enough to worry them. But in application, that doesn't work.
I've also been disheartened by a recent American Druid post claiming a Priest with PW:S, IF and Cloth armour whacking away with a staff out performed a non feral Bear in Melee.
So why does a Caster class, that not only can heal but out melee a Druid when spec'd as a Primary Healer have more versatility in nuking as a purely damage spec'd (as that's really all the Balance tree does) 'Balance' Druid?
As Blizz doesn't seem to invisigion Druids as damage capable casters, what is the Balance tree for?
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You're playing a "Variant", in the classic Diablo sense. Because of this, you truly have nothing to complain about.
The Druid, all imperfections aside, is balanced to use ALL its abillities, even if it's Talented towards only one. If you Talent only for one, and also use ONLY that one thing you're Talented for, you're crippling the entire character. It'd be like a Hunter using ONLY Marksmanship Talents and skills, and never using a Pet. They'd kill their effective playing, and could easily, as you are doing here, complain that such-and-such a class is better, pound for pound, because they can do all this AND this.
You're not comparing apples to apples. At best, you're comparing kiwis to bananas. A Druid is a truly hybrid class, and perhaps (IMHO) the best of all of them (Paladins are a complete wash, Shamans have their glaring strengths, but equally glaring weaknesses, and Hunters aren't truly "hybrid" IMO). Completely cutting out what makes them so special and powerful is simply cutting them into one-third of themselves. There's nothing wrong with doing this, but expecting them to be Gods while doing so is wrong. I'm not going to tell you to learn to play the class; although I have no doubt you have a lot of learning to do, it's not a learning curve that's holding you back - it's your attitude. Simple as that. And as long as you stick with that attitude, you're never going to be happy.
I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm not critiquing your playstyle. Personally, I think it's a grand idea, and could certainly add some flavor, excitement, and challenge to the game. But to complain that it's not performing to your expectations is not an inherent problem with the class, but rather an inherent problem with your expectations. Only you can change that, and only by choice.
So my advice is as follows:
a) Learn to love what you can do with your choice, and forego looking for something to complain about. Take your choice as a challenge, and try to inject some flavor and excitement into your playing with it.
B) Try something more in line with what you want, i.e. a Mage, Warlock, or even a Hunter. All three can do strong ranged damage, and two of them have excellent casting abilities (the Hunter has Traps, which add a unique flavor to the class all its own).
c) Give up on the notion of playing a Variant and expecting it to be as strong as a normal character, and use the class the way it was designed in ADDITION to the goal you have in mind. There's NOTHING wrong with blasting the hell out of a mob, only to briefly switch to Feral to help you overcome certain challenges, before switching back to Caster-mode. It may not be as effective 100% of the time over your normal, Caster-oriented playstyle, but I guarantee you that at certain points it beats your Caster style hands down.
Again, I'm not trying to criticize you. Merely enlighten you some. Whatever you do, try to enjoy the game, period. That's the most important thing. Oh, and try not to take what some people here too much to heart - most people don't mean to be as critical as they sometimes come off, myself especially. ;) The Internet is a very poor medium for communication at times.