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Mage PvP and Other Options - Roane - 10-12-2005
I posted this on my guild boards first, but there's about a dozen of us and lots more Lurkers. Also, I have tons of (too much? heh) respect for the strategy abilities of Lurkers. This is all regarding my gnomish mage, Verdigris, on the RP-PVP server Emerald Dream. Therefore:
Quote:So, I'm hitting those levels where I usually begin to get a little frustrated. For some reason, the 30 to very early 40s range is always tough for me, and I find myself having to push myself through it instead of really enjoying myself, though I've done it enough now to know I will enjoy it once I get to the other side.
This is made even harder for me this time around with this being my first PvP server. I'm a fairly independent player. I enjoy socializing, and enjoy grouping, but I'm either too independent or too shy to ask for company unless I need very particular help completing something. So when I try to do the things I'm used to doing, like trekking through Stonetalon, I'm on my own. And on my own = dead. I try to be nice and not gank the guy 8 levels below me who is just going about his questing, and he brings back four friends to kill me. I run across a stealthed rogue before he sees me (resting between fights maybe) and decide to blast him before he can get me, only to have a friend jump in and heal him so I don't stand a chance. And though I know this is how a PvP server goes, and I don't mind the dying part, I am tired of a) constantly losing all solo fights -- winning one would be nice -- and 2) not really being able to explore.
To elaborate on 2, my Bartle type is ESA. I'm an Explorer first and even though I know parts of this game backwards and forwards, I love wandering and finding the little niches I haven't seen yet. Not being able to travel causes me more frustration than dying while I'm questing. (I talked to my best friend about this, and he says he is just the opposite way. I'd guess his viewpoint is more typical.)
So, what's all this rambling leading up to? I'm asking for advice, mostly.
How can I increase my chance of surviving these fights as they occur? What strategies work as a mage? I'm a solid PvE mage. I can handle as many multiples as anyone. I rarely die unless I'm in a mood where I'm throwing caution to the wind. But in PvP, I'm just a noob. I've learned that throwing up my mana shield first, or when I'm running through somewhere dangerous, can really help out since it absorbs enough damage for me to get a second to get my bearings, but beyond that, I'm stuck. Advice? I'm currently specced 11 into Arcane for the Evocation and 11 into Fire. I'm not liking Pyroblast much though so the spec is up into the air.
Secondly, I think I'm going to start a rogue alt. As much as I love Verdi as a character, she's very squishy, and I need something else to do when I'm frustrated. A number of [my guildmates] have recommended a paladin if I don't want to be as squishy and I can see the merit in that, but my best friend (he-who-understands-my-play-instincts-and-skills) says he thinks that I'll be happier if I can stealth, which means rogue or druid. If there's a factor I'm not considering there, please let me know. Assuming that I go ahead with the rogue plan, do you folks have any suggestions on race? Trades? Other misc. advice?
Thank you, all, for whatever advice or assistance you can offer.
Mage PvP and Other Options - TheWesson - 10-13-2005
Roane,Oct 12 2005, 11:25 AM Wrote:I posted this on my guild boards first, but there's about a dozen of us and lots more Lurkers. Also, I have tons of (too much? heh) respect for the strategy abilities of Lurkers. This is all regarding my gnomish mage, Verdigris, on the RP-PVP server Emerald Dream. Therefore:
Thank you, all, for whatever advice or assistance you can offer.
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hmm ... wouldn't a mage usually do <whatever> to gain distance, like Frost Nova or Sheep ... Blink ... then you can either run (if you want) or have enough time to brew up your highest-damage spell (Pyroblast?) as a first strike.
Also, re-roll a character with a short name, and don't join a guild (or if you must, one with a short name, like "War") , and then you'll be able to successfully hide behind bushes while you drink.
Mage PvP and Other Options - kandrathe - 10-13-2005
Roane,Oct 12 2005, 02:25 PM Wrote:I posted this on my guild boards first, but there's about a dozen of us and lots more Lurkers. Also, I have tons of (too much? heh) respect for the strategy abilities of Lurkers. This is all regarding my gnomish mage, Verdigris, on the RP-PVP server Emerald Dream. Therefore:The best advice would be to start a collection of friends in your friends list that are around your level. Try to duo with them. Beyond PvP, even many PvE encounters level 40 and beyond require at least a duo. A paladin would make a perfect partner for you, as they often lack your killing speed and CC abilities and you lack their armor and healing. During busy times I just need to post in the LFG channel to find at least one more helper. I think with the right cadre, you might find they would help you enjoy your playstyle as well.
Thank you, all, for whatever advice or assistance you can offer.
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Mage PvP and Other Options - Roane - 10-13-2005
TheWesson,Oct 12 2005, 08:26 PM Wrote:hmm ... wouldn't a mage usually do <whatever> to gain distance, like Frost Nova or Sheep ... Blink ... then you can either run (if you want) or have enough time to brew up your highest-damage spell (Pyroblast?) as a first strike.
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Thanks, Wesson. I've always been thinking defense first, then attack, but it's sounding like distance prior to attacking is more what I need to do. This has been a failing in my PvE playstyle (I stand toe to toe with mobs which most mages don't do but which works well for me) that it seems I'll have to finally break myself from.
Being an RP server (as well as PvP), renaming just to get something shorter isn't really an option, but it's something I'll keep in mind for the next character I make.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Skandranon - 10-13-2005
Well, for the first couple situations you posted - there's really no helping that. When the lowbie comes back with four friends, you're pretty much dead. Similarly when you encounter someone with a healer - especially at those levels, you cannot out-efficient or out-damage heals.
Winning solo fights, though is something different entirely.
Firstly, I'd recommend a respec. Arcane/Fire is good, but the jewels of PvP are all in the mid-range of the Arcane tree and not until very late in the fire tree. With your 22 talent points, I'd suggest 5 IAM, 5 Arcane Concentration, 5 IAE, 2 Imp Counterspell, 1 Evocation, 2 (focus, subtlety, imp mana shield, whatever) and 1 PoM, with the last point into improved fireball. PoM, Improved Counterspell and IAE give you the flexibility you need to win some of these fights.
Secondly, practice the instant turn for a while until you get good at it. It's important that you aren't using time keyboard turning.
For open-world PvP, chances are that you're going to be either ambushing someone who doesn't know you're there, or being ambushed by someone.
If you're attacking, try your best to burst down your target. Wind up a fireball before they see you, and follow it with a PoM fireball as you run toward them. Fireblast and Cone of Cold as you close range. With any luck, you should burn off 60+% of their life in that one volley. The object isn't just to kill them, though you're doing that. It's to cause panic, force mistakes. The best thing is to scare them into trying to run away. Since you can run at the same speed and have instant ranged attacks, someone trying to flee won't find much success.
If you get attacked, the first thing to remember is not to panic. Get time and distance. If you're attacked by melee, frost nova, take a couple steps, turn, and sheep. This gives you ten to fifteen seconds to bandage to full and set up. Against ranged attackers, just sheep, or if necessary, PoM sheep. At the least, the polymorph gives you time to get a fireball off.
After the initial stages, however, you get into what I consider the main form of mage combat, which is up close and personal. This applies after your initial volley when attacking, after your fireballing the sheep when you were attacked, and most of the time when you're dueling. The fact is, most classes are going to try to get close; and those that don't have greater advantages than you do by staying at range. Your main weapons in this combat are fireblast, cone of cold and instant arcane explosion. Fireblast and CoC; IAE when those two are on cooldown. Use Frost Nova whenever it comes up, and IAM if your mana's running low. Whenever possible, stay on the move to keep them facing away from you and blink at unpredictable times and directions to confuse them. This last bit is very much something you can only learn through experience, but these are the general ideas.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Bob the Beholder - 10-13-2005
Stock up on stamina gear. Keep your blink and polymorph hotkeys accessible. Never stand your ground. It's certainly possible to close-range outdamage a particularly feeble lower level opponent, before around level 40, when damage starts increasing far faster than hp. But it's not good practice.
Against meleers keep a snare on them at all times--cone of cold, frost bolt (using rank 1 for a short cast time is nice), whatever. But stay on the move. Practice holding down the right mouse button and sweeping the mouse around to turn quickly for an instant fireblast without losing distance. I usually use my blink to gain enough distance for a polymorph, then save my frost nova for when the enemy manages to get close to me--timing it so that they get caught in it BEFORE they get in melee range. Keep up the damage all you can while still keeping distance. Don't stand around waiting for him to get up on you, but you're not too likely to end the fight very fast if you only use fireblast. So you gotta judge when your enemy is properly slowed, and far enough away to throw out a scorch or fireball. But do it fast--don't stand around waiting to see what the spell does; just get it off and get out of there.
Fighting a hunter is exactly the opposite--get up on him, and stay there. A hunter can't shoot you if you're within eight yards of him. Sheep his pet, if you can. Otherwise just get in range and throw down a frost nova to keep the both of them off of you.
And other casters is a bit more straightforward. There's really nothing much you can do to keep them from damaging you, other than blinking behind them while they're casting, or strategically timing a counterspell. So it's really just about doing more damage to them than they do to you.
Healers are a different story. Healing is more mana efficient than damage. All they really have to do is keep themselves alive until you run of out of mana. Catching them off-guard with their healing is a good thing--throw down all the burst damage you can, and hope they start trying to heal too late to save themselves. Counterspell a heal when they're at low life, and you may be able to finish them before they can cast again.
I would take Skan's advice with the talent points. If you're going to be fighting other players, Presence of Mind is not something you want to miss out on. Especially in a fire build. The power of a combination of polymorph, fireball, fireblast, PoM-fireball in quick succession can really give you the advantage. With my level 60 mage and a bit of luck on crits, I can literally kill off certain level 60 enemies (squishies--some casters, rogues and hunters who skimp on stamina gear and for some reason maintain a level of hp at or below 3,000) in just those three hits. It's not very likely, though.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Artega - 10-13-2005
Preferably Blink behind them or at a perpendicular angle to them. If you Blink directly away from them, they'll just rush to you (Rogues) or Intercept you (Warriors.)
Before you'll be any good, though, you really need to learn how to turn using the mouse, and not the keyboard. Practice instant 180s until you can do a 180, land a fireblast/PoM-anything/CoC and then flip around without stopping. Duels are great for this kind of practice.
Mage PvP and Other Options - savaughn - 10-14-2005
Quote:How can I increase my chance of surviving these fights as they occur? What strategies work as a mage? I'm a solid PvE mage. I can handle as many multiples as anyone. I rarely die unless I'm in a mood where I'm throwing caution to the wind. But in PvP, I'm just a noob. I've learned that throwing up my mana shield first, or when I'm running through somewhere dangerous, can really help out since it absorbs enough damage for me to get a second to get my bearings, but beyond that, I'm stuck. Advice? I'm currently specced 11 into Arcane for the Evocation and 11 into Fire. I'm not liking Pyroblast much though so the spec is up into the air.
So, I'm not a godlike PvP warrior but I do pretty OK. There's more out there to learn, but here's some tricks.
1) Drink early, drink often: It is easy as a mage to get into a routine where you play until you exhaust your mana, sit and drink, and then go again. The problem is that this makes you an easy target. A mage without mana is a dead mage. Never let your mana get below half if you can help it. If your mana is down in the 60-70% level stop and drink. You can make all the water in the world - there is no need to ration it. If you're in a particularly dangerous area, cap yourself off after each fight.
2) Blink: Your best friend is your blink button. I'm always surprised by how many mages don't realize that Blink breaks stun. I've seen mages duel rogues and stand there and take a stunlock. No! Hit that blink button, get some distance.
3) Move: This is just a way of life in PvP. If you are standing still, you are dead. Mages get into this trap in PvE where they stand in one place and outlast their enemy. This is not PvE. You should be running full tilt the whole time. Why? If you are not in front of an opponent, 90% of their abilities can't hit you. If you run straight through a Paladin, you are now behind him and he won't get his swing off. If you run through a warlock, that shadowbolt is going to fizzle before it flies. You are playing a positioning battle with your characters. That means constantly attempting to move behind your opponent.
4) Instant cast: Accept this little rule of life. If it isn't instant cast, it's probably not going to do anything for you in PvP. Fireblast, IAE, CoC, Frost Nova - these are your mainstays. Anything else you cast is just buying you time. Anything else can get interrupted and stopped before it even appears.
5) Spec: Corallary to the above: if it's instant cast, it's useful, so make everything instant cast. All mages who PvP should have Presence of Mind and Improved Arcane Explosion. As an added bonus, Presence of Mind + Pyroblast or Fireball gives you an instant cast DoT which will keep a rogue from vanishing.
6) Jump Shots: A jump shot lets you run away from an opponent and hit them at the same time. If your character jumps in the air, he will keep moving forward at full run speed. While in the air, you can spin around. This lets you cast instant cast spells at opponents behind you. Close opponents can be hit with Cone of Cold which will prevent them from catching you. Opponents farther away can be hit with fireblast or PoM+any spell.
7) Distance is your Friend: If you are facing a melee character, you have a simple way of not taking damage - getting more than 5 yards away from them. At that point, you can still kill them and they can't hurt you very effectively. Most of your cold spells snare your opponent, Frost Nova is a root, and your fire spells can stun. Use this to your advantage.
8) OOC: Ok, this is getting a little cheap, but lets talk about out of combat. If you get far enough away from a PvP opponent, you are dropped out of combat. When this happens, combat effects are reset and you can drink/mount. If you are facing a single opponent you can very effectively control the encounter. What's more, you're playing horde side and that means you only face trinkets as an anti-poly effect. This gives you amazing control. If you sheep an opponent and move far enough away from them that you drop out of combat, you eliminate the penalty for multiple sheeps. This means you can poly+blink+run a little bit, then drink/eat, blink, repolly, etc. You can keep a single player in this state indefinitely. With a bit of timing, you can even do this if they break out of the first polly using a PvP trinket. I suspect this will be addressed someday, but for now... it works, so use it if you need it.
9) Shields Up!: My goal in PvP is to have my hps and my mana run out at exactly the same time. If I die and I have mana left, I haven't been as effective as I could have been. If you are facing an opponent who does physical damage and you aren't going to be able to dump all of your mana into instants as fast as he can kill you (esp. rogues) you should be turning that mana into Hps by turning on your shield. Take a look at the cost of your fire blast and IAE spells. You can cast these at most once every 1.5s. PvP combat is probably only going to last 10-25s. If you can't burn through that in spells, put your shield up. It's an expensive way to "heal", but outside of the 31 point ice talent, it's your only option.
That should be enough to get you started. The first thing I'd recommend is respeccing so that you get 16 points into arcane. Your mileage may vary, but as far as I'm concerned the first 16 points for all mages should be: improved arcane missile, arcane concentration, evocation, improved arcane explosion.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Watto44 - 10-14-2005
savaughn,Oct 14 2005, 11:50 AM Wrote:8) OOC: Ok, this is getting a little cheap, but lets talk about out of combat. If you get far enough away from a PvP opponent, you are dropped out of combat.
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Um, just to clarify, it's not distance that places you out of combat, it's time in PvP. (In PvE as we all know, mobs have a radius beyond which they won't attack unless you're still attacking them.) If you do not perform any attacking actions on a player and they don't perform attacking actions on you for 5 seconds you are placed out of combat. (Note: the DoT's that are already on you/your opponent are fine, they don't count as actions.) I'm not entirely sure how healing spells factor in to this, as it's not something I use that often except against other druids - and I try not to get into those 20 minute blahfests if I can help it - or when I'm out numbered. Oh, and you have to turn off auto-attack for this to work.
If anyone can clarify how healing affects this I'd appreciate the knowledge. For scientific reasons of course. :whistling:
As for survival tips: duel, duel, duel. Even though duels are an artificial environment, they're the perfect way to practice the various tips and tactics that everyone else has mentioned. Duel people every chance you get. Waiting for people to show up for an instance run? Duel. Someone's afk? Duel. Waiting for an auction to expire? .... Well, you get the idea. :D
Mage PvP and Other Options - Roane - 10-14-2005
Thank you, everyone! These are some great concrete strategies and I'm already starting to practice them as I can (and just to think about it all a bit differently too). And I'm saving up for a respec!
Mage PvP and Other Options - Xame - 10-14-2005
Roane,Oct 14 2005, 09:52 AM Wrote:Thank you, everyone! These are some great concrete strategies and I'm already starting to practice them as I can (and just to think about it all a bit differently too). And I'm saving up for a respec!
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I'm currently living in the same PvP state as you.
Leveling: Stay off of the roads and stay away from Instances that higher level characters are traveling to.
Suprise encounters: Keep sheep on the fastest hot keyboard key you have. Your first move is always to sheep. Unless it is a mage were you must hit counterspell. Remember, first dmg in PvP is usually the winner with even levels. This resets the battle and gives you a sec to think about what to do next (running away and hiding is a very reasonable option!!).
Combat: If they don't have a trinket to break the sheep. You can setup the fight (you were running away right?). If you decide to fight, break the sheep with a
fireball/frostbolt and NEVER cast anything over 1.5 secs again. Your combat is pretty simple, fireblast, cone of cold and scotch when you get some distance. Use frost nova to root and blink to gain distance (use the blink second because most people will root/slow/stun after they have been sheeped, shot at, and then frost nova'ed) Remember to run around all the time!!!! and use instant AE to punish them while they chase you and you are waiting for your damage/roots to come up again. Use Arcane missles when you get ahead of the curve and then execute them with a fireblast + cone of cold + instant AE (the fast burst dps at the end is important to stop them from drinking a health pot).
Keyboard bindings:
Keypad 0: rear-view mirror. Set this to "flip" the camera. Flick it with your mouse
thumb to see if they are chasing you.
Middle mouse: fireblast (needs to be fast because shot at a 60deg angle to the enemy as you are turning a corner while kiting)
Shift middle mouse: cone of cold (also fast because it is also shot at an angle while turning and kiting)
Escapes: After the sheep keep running. If you decide to run for it, flip the rear-view
mirror and watch the sheep for a sec (while running!!). If they break sheep (trinket/shape shift etc). Stop and re-sheep (YOU DO NOT NEED TO FACE THE ENEMY). Run for cover, save your blink for stuns/roots and your frost nova for when they get close (don't waste these). Use cone of cold and look for cover. Remember to redo sheep if you get near mobs with the hope to wander the sheep into the mobs before they break the sheep again.
All fighters are easy for mages (keep away from them and kite like crazy, practice with mobs, kill the mob with 100% life, practice running the mage triangle "60 degree sharp turns while putting out damage on your turns from your fireblast/cone of cold).
Priests/warlocks - run away from them, most are shadow priests and will kill you with dots even if you win the fight you still die
Shaman - run in a linear pattern (away from their totems!) Your instant casts should do the trick to kill them. Keep away from arcane missles since they will just stop it.
Hunters - sheep the PET not the hunter. Get in close and start with the arcane missles. Most hunters are either beast or marksman. Getting in close gives you a huge dps advantage (remember pets don't get trinkets so have at it sheeping the pet)
Mages - sheep/counterspell wins and lucky crit wins. Go for arcane missles fast because is "interupts"/slows casting if they are dumb and go for a fireball/frostbolt.
Remember, 1. always keep moving (except for AM for the win and scorch when you get distance). 2. Blink is a common combat weapon like frost nova (USE IT). 3. Run away and gank them when they are with a mob questing and low on health (this is a PvP server :P red=dead) 4. mana/health = 2/1 for the mid levels. when picking what gear to buy at the AH (don't go for total int gear or total stam gear, 2/1 is a good balance).
Mage PvP and Other Options - MongoJerry - 10-16-2005
It's all about ice spec. It has far more survivability and crowd control abilities than fire. Also, while it's damage isn't as high as fire, it's mana efficiency is better, so it's good for leveling up, too. Every single one of The Core's hardcore PvP mages have switched to ice. Such a spec just gives you too many options in PvP not to get it.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Bob the Beholder - 10-17-2005
MongoJerry,Oct 16 2005, 08:40 PM Wrote:It's all about ice spec. It has far more survivability and crowd control abilities than fire. Also, while it's damage isn't as high as fire, it's mana efficiency is better, so it's good for leveling up, too. Every single one of The Core's hardcore PvP mages have switched to ice. Such a spec just gives you too many options in PvP not to get it.
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I tried to deny it for a while, but I'd have to agree. And the damage isn't even all that bad, once you manage to collect some spell damage equipment. My frost bolt, with its maximum damage of 475, hits for an average of 610 damage, with crits over 1200 damage, that you can easily trigger by throwing down a frost nova before-hand. And I'm still missing several pieces from my spell damage set. I've had some thoughts of switching back to fire, but the thought of doing a frost nova, cone of cold, cold snap, frost nova, cone of cold combo to do over 2,000 damage to however many targets I can fit in front of me makes me a very, very happy panda.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Artega - 10-17-2005
I've fought mages whose Frostbolts crit for 1900 and whose CoCs crit for over 1250. Fire mages are easy. Ice mages are scary.
Mage PvP and Other Options - Watto44 - 10-19-2005
Artega,Oct 18 2005, 03:05 AM Wrote:I've fought mages whose Frostbolts crit for 1900 and whose CoCs crit for over 1250. Fire mages are easy. Ice mages are scary.
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Agreed, ice mages are scary. For my druid, mages are usually a fairly straight forward win, but an ice mage with high hp is a nasty, nasty fight.