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+--- Thread: All warrior and Paly groups? (/thread-5256.html)
All warrior and Paly groups? - Guest - 11-24-2005
I have done a group of 4 warriors and a priest with good results.Im wondering how 3 warriors and paly with at least 1 set up for healing would do. Has any one tried this much?
The simplicity and lack of downtime with 4 warriors seemed to make it as fast as more varied group in the long run.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Kevin - 11-24-2005
Ghostiger,Nov 24 2005, 08:09 AM Wrote:I have done a group of 4 warriors and a priest with good results.Im wondering how 3 warriors and paly with at least 1 set up for healing would do. Has any one tried this much?
The simplicity and lack of downtime with 4 warriors seemed to make it as fast as more varied group in the long run.
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Well we've done 5 paladins in Scarlet Strat no real problems.
We've had protection paladins (no points in holy tree) heal groups with no real AoE in Tribute runs even killing Fengus on one of them (because his drops were more valuable for the people on the run than one more piece of tribute likely would have been).
Early levels (21 to 45) keep in mind that paladins, because of how Seal of Command works are generally going to out DPS any warrior spec over a given period of time, warriors need talent synergies with their top tier talents to pass them and for most everything if that paladin wants to heal and focuss on healing he should no problems doing it regardless of spec, especially with just healing high HP high damage mitigation people.
My paladin main healed every instance from Scarlet Monestary up through BRD no problems. I have not had him main heal Dire Maul stuff yet but having seen a protection spec paladin do it with worse healing gear than I have I don't see why I couldn't.
What I would like to try is 5 warriors and aggro bounce with bandages in an instance to see if it could be done.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Dozer - 11-25-2005
Only thing I can say is:
Hope you get some plate drops. :D
All warrior and Paly groups? - Guest - 11-25-2005
But is loot the only real problem?
I play a warrior now(I used to play a rogue) and its seems with a arms or fury set up that DPS is just fine but you take a lot less damage. I see no real reason to want a rogue in a group and while a mage can be situationally excellent, it seems a raid may go just as fast with a all warriors for dps because you almost never stop.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Kevin - 11-25-2005
Ghostiger,Nov 24 2005, 11:34 PM Wrote:But is loot the only real problem?
I play a warrior now(I used to play a rogue) and its seems with a arms or fury set up that DPS is just fine but you take a lot less damage. I see no real reason to want a rogue in a group and while a mage can be situationally excellent, it seems a raid may go just as fast with a all warriors for dps because you almost never stop.
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The problem with DPS warriors later on (and yes with the right gear and spec fury/arms warriors can get close to rogues) is that warriors have no way to drop aggro if they get. You might say "well that is no big deal" but the dual weilding fury arms warrior in battle or zerker stance is still going to take significantly more damage than that protection warrior with sword and board in def stance.
The hardest thing for me to hold aggro on is another warrior in DPS mode with the right spec and gear. They simply can't reduce it, and if they pull it on something like Onyxia she turns and kills half the raid with her breath. :) Also when a warrior pulls aggro and can't shed it it's very likely the healers are not even looking at the health bar for that warrior and unlike the rogue who can shed the aggro to buy time for heal the warrior may die. I've seen fury/arms warriors pull aggro and die in our Molten Core raids. I see rogues pull aggro and then drop it then get a heal on them a bit later.
In the 10-15 man raids it doesn't matter but then again in those places with decent gearing the mages and warlocks can AoE all the time too.
In a five man you lose the extra CC that a rogue can provide, the distracts that prevent a pat from adding in while you repostion, the blind that buy you some extra time. And in five man a warrior pulling aggro doesn't take much less healing than a rogue who simply avoids about 10% more damage with the higher dodge and same parry while the warrior is mitigating the damage by 15% more or so (no shield on the DPS warrior so probably only 40% damage mitigation). Anything that isn't CC'd means more damage to the party, even if it is being off tanked, means more healing.
Even still you are correct in that you can usually replace a rogue with a DPS build warrior and not lose much of anything. This is why rogues are not happy. They are still barely the top of the DPS pile but they have no other utility in most instances and many groups are too impatient to let that utility be used anyway.
Oh and back to the original post. I did Gnomer with 2 warriors and 3 paladins and Uldaman with 3 warriors and 2 paladins and we didn't have any real problems. The 2nd paladin did helpt to provide some healing at times but generally it was just me doing the healing and the other paladin doing DPS with us providing 2 blessing and 2 auras to the group. I wouldn't say the groups moved any faster than any other 5 man, but as long you play to a groups strength any 5 in an instance should be able to move quickly.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Quark - 11-25-2005
Gnollguy,Nov 25 2005, 01:26 AM Wrote:The problem with DPS warriors later on (and yes with the right gear and spec fury/arms warriors can get close to rogues) is that warriors have no way to drop aggro if they get. You might say "well that is no big deal" but the dual weilding fury arms warrior in battle or zerker stance is still going to take significantly more damage than that protection warrior with sword and board in def stance.
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It typically becomes a big deal when the Executes start - that's a lot of hate coming through pure damage. It's why I've advocated giving all DPS Warriors salvation, save a possible one or two as backups.
All warrior and Paly groups? - mjdoom - 11-25-2005
Quark,Nov 25 2005, 12:54 AM Wrote:It typically becomes a big deal when the Executes start - that's a lot of hate coming through pure damage. It's why I've advocated giving all DPS Warriors salvation, save a possible one or two as backups.
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Speaking as a warrior who plays a dps role often in MC/BWL I'd have to agree here. If you are not actively tanking or expected to tank in the near future get salvation.
It is very true that you have no way to shed aggro. The best you can do is stop attacking and run to the MT position and expect to die. Even this is usually not a good option. Bad timing can lead to decimated raids when mobs turn; still it behooves the dps warrior to understand how the mob is being tanked so that they can act quickly in the case that they do pull aggro.
If you are a warrior in a dps role where pulling aggro is bad (basically any large raid situation) there are a few things to keep in mind:
1) Get salvation if you can. This will certainly help and you can always click it off if you really need to step in and try to tank.
2) Don't rely on salvation to do the work for you. Remember that Heroic Strike adds extra aggro and understand how your dps compares to you tank's ability to hold aggro. Be careful about when you use skills like Death Wish. Understand that there are times where you might be best served to just plain stop attacking. Think of yourself partly like a rogue in that you should make some effort to watch your own health and not expect heals. Depending on the situation heals may have to be primarily directed toward main tanks.
3) Know how a mob is being tanked. Be sure to move to the MT position as quickly as possible if you do pull aggro. This is true for all dps classes when they can't shed aggro really.
3) In conjunction with 4), try to have some mod that lets you know when you do grab aggro so you can react quickly. I personally just use MultiAssist which is a simple target of target mod. If I see myself being targetted that is bad (when I'm not tanking).
Off of this diversion and back to the original question; I've run with some smaller groups that included 2 or 3 warriors. You end up doing CC through tanking but in many cases it is doable. Damage will occasionally be spread out more (with more mobs in play) so healers might have to work harder. Keep in mind though that certain mobs are easier to kill with magical damage (and a select few, occultists in Scholo come to mind, can ONLY be killed with some magic); for this reason I'd usually prefer a more balanced party and also hesitate to make a blanket statement that warrior heavy groups can move faster.
Also keep in mind that warriors tend to be more gear dependent than other classes. I think the results of runs like this can vary highly based on the skill/gear of your group but it can certainly work well in the right circumstances.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Guest - 11-25-2005
What about PvP?
All warrior and Paly groups? - Rinnhart - 11-26-2005
Ghostiger,Nov 25 2005, 07:19 AM Wrote:What about PvP?
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You'd melt faces. I'd say 2 paladins 3 warriors would be a better mix, though. More healing, more Freedoms, more dispelling. Three warriors carve their way through things so fast, you don't need more.
All warrior and Paly groups? - JustAGuy - 11-30-2005
Rinnhart,Nov 26 2005, 02:42 AM Wrote:You'd melt faces. I'd say 2 paladins 3 warriors would be a better mix, though. More healing, more Freedoms, more dispelling. Three warriors carve their way through things so fast, you don't need more.
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I'd even go far as to say that a 2 Paladin + 3 Warrior mix would be unstoppable, that is, if the Paladins understand their roles and dispell and heal as required.
The only thing that would cause problems are curses and maybe charm when the pallie's shield is on cooldown. Even then, 2x Paladin, both heal spec = win.
All warrior and Paly groups? - Tal - 11-30-2005
Gnollguy,Nov 24 2005, 12:47 PM Wrote:We've had protection paladins (no points in holy tree) heal groups with no real AoE in Tribute runs even killing Fengus on one of them (because his drops were more valuable for the people on the run than one more piece of tribute likely would have been).
I have not had him main heal Dire Maul stuff yet but having seen a protection spec paladin do it with worse healing gear than I have I don't see why I couldn't.
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And you have no idea how worn out I was at the end. ;) It was nice not having to worry about getting aggro on a heal (holy shield and 8k armor ftw) but given my druthers I'd take Krystian on any future DM runs. Renew, prayer of healing and shield coupled with a larger mana pool make it so much easier on the Tal. :)
Still pondering what talents I'll take on Sharanna in 1.9 as I might be needed to bring Shar instead of Shal with the changes to Blessings more often.