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Iran president denies holocaust - Fragbait - 12-14-2005

spiegel link (German)

calgary herald link

yahoo news link

telegraph link

cnn link

Hi,

I don't know if you knew what this man said (and thinks), but I guess everyone should know. In Germany (and in some other countries), such assertions would be illegal and actionable. There's no doubt about the holocaust.

This one doesn't help him much at all. He and his nation already are in a difficult position due to their nuclear program.
Jesus - I don't sympathise with him. Anyone here who does? Or any Iranian lurkers in here? I guess not, right? Would be interesting.


Greetings, Fragbait

Iran president denies holocaust - Guest - 12-14-2005

Bush was right - Iran(an an entity, not all the individual people) is evil.

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-14-2005

Fragbait,Dec 14 2005, 04:43 AM Wrote:calgary herald link
telegraph link
Hi,

I don't know if you knew what this man said (and thinks), but I guess everyone should know. In Germany (and in some other countries), such assertions would be illegal and actionable. There's no doubt about the holocaust.

Jesus - I don't sympathise with him. Anyone here who does? Or any Iranian lurkers in here? I guess not, right? Would be interesting.
Greetings, Fragbait
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Fragbait: per our Pinter discussion, this is a political leader of a nation playing to his constituents. As with any number of other political leaders, he is not interested in facts or history, is he? :lol: He's blowing a bit of smoke. (In his defense, the other remarks quoted are a common view held in the Muslim world, and among not a few liberals and ultra conservatives in the West.) All in all, he sounds off with a bit of hyperbole and misinformation. So what? That's standard rhetoric in the Ring of Fire. Maybe I should say that to some of us, This Is Not News, but merely an acknowledgement of what quite a few Muslims feel in their hearts. Stories and symbols matter. Where you sit determines what you see.

I read one of his remarks a few days ago about "Europe needing to bring the Jews/Israelis back into Europe and out of The Holy Land." I had a small chuckling fit at the premise, given the fundamental indifference, or outright hostility, to Jews that is both Europe's historical heritage, and part of the motivation for the Zionist movement out of Europe and into a Jewish nation state. If he was to be internally consistent, he'd insist that Bosnian Muslims be moved to Isarel, and the Israelis to Bosnia, so each people would be in its "proper home land" based on his world view.

Whoops, guess he's like most pols, not consistent. :rolleyes:

Note: Are you familiar with the "population transfers" between Greece and Turkey after World War I? A precedent, though not a brilliant one.

So, Germans go out of their way to enforce truth in speech, or perhaps slander laws, by force of attack lawyers. I wonder if they understand something about free speech needing to be founded in truth that we don't. ;) Such laws would put most advertisers out of work. :lol:

The Brits have similarly stringent libel / slander laws.

What I had heard is that the German laws confine this zealous pursuit of "truth" to falsehood about the Holocaust? Bah: inconsistent and hypocritical, if that is the case. The statute of limitations on victim status has been reached. The Chinese holocaust during Mao's reign dwarfs what happened in Europe, which staggers my brain considering the Holocaust's scale and scope. Joe Stalin's bloody path to modernity was likewise immensely more bloody in terms of body count.

Frag, I suspect I do not correctly understand the laws you refer to. Can you explain them to me, in the interest of providing me a better clue?

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Jester - 12-14-2005

Occhi, I'm confused by the reference of yours to western liberals who deny the holocaust. I've never come across such a beast. Could you name a few?

-Jester

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-14-2005

Jester,Dec 14 2005, 02:07 PM Wrote:Occhi, I'm confused by the reference of yours to western liberals who deny the holocaust. I've never come across such a beast. Could you name a few?

-Jester
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I was unclear, my apologies. A number of folk on both sides of the fence tend to support his remarks OTHER THAN the gaffe of that Holocaust being a hoax; i.e. Israel had/has nottle right to the lands that the Zionist movement of the 19th and 20th century was able, by various means and alliances, to turn into what you and I recognize as the state of Israel.

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Doc - 12-15-2005

There are members of the American Patriot's Society (AKA, the KKK) that stand around downtown and pass out little fliers and pamphlets to passersby that talk about the great holocaust lie and other myths created by the enemies of America, the Jewish Media Empire.

I hate them. And anybody like them.

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2005

Doc,Dec 14 2005, 06:06 PM Wrote:There are members of the American Patriot's Society (AKA, the KKK) that stand around downtown and pass out little fliers and pamphlets to passersby that talk about the great holocaust lie and other myths created by the enemies of America, the Jewish Media Empire.

I hate them. And anybody like them.
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UH, what's this Jewish Media Empire thing they are on about? Is this the Hollywood thing?

Or should I even ask? :blink:

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Doc - 12-15-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 14 2005, 07:18 PM Wrote:UH, what's this Jewish Media Empire thing they are on about?  Is this the Hollywood thing? 

Or should I even ask?  :blink: 

Occhi
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Hollywood, the news, the newspapers, the tv, etc. Jews own the banks, banks control the money, money controls the media. It's a deeply layered paranoid dillusion... And I don't wish to discuss it much.

And Jerry Seinfeld has mystical Jewish wizard powers to poison and destroy the Aryan mind through television broadcast signals and is, in fact, the messenger of Satan come to destroy us all.

I am surrounded by idiots.

Iran president denies holocaust - Munkay - 12-15-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 14 2005, 07:18 PM Wrote:UH, what's this Jewish Media Empire thing they are on about?  Is this the Hollywood thing? 

Or should I even ask?  :blink: 

Occhi

It's the newest leg in the Zionist plan to take over the world! It's exactly as proported in the Elders of Zion!

<_< Pardon me while I throw up. Twice.

Cheers,

Munk

Iran president denies holocaust - kandrathe - 12-15-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 14 2005, 07:18 PM Wrote:UH, what's this Jewish Media Empire thing they are on about?&nbsp; Is this the Hollywood thing?&nbsp;

Or should I even ask?&nbsp; :blink:&nbsp;

Occhi
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Simple enough to google "Jewish Media" and get tons of anti-semitic sites.

Iran president denies holocaust - Doc - 12-15-2005

Munkay,Dec 14 2005, 09:50 PM Wrote:It's the newest leg in the Zionist plan to take over the world!&nbsp; It's exactly as proported in the Elders of Zion!

<_< Pardon me while I throw up.&nbsp; Twice.

Cheers,

Munk
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See, the evil powers must be working. You just threw up.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in sufficient numbers.

Iran president denies holocaust - whyBish - 12-15-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 15 2005, 04:59 AM Wrote:So, Germans go out of their way to enforce truth in speech, or perhaps slander laws, by force of attack lawyers.&nbsp; I wonder if they understand something about free speech needing to be founded in truth that we don't.&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; Such laws would put most advertisers out of work.&nbsp; :lol:
Occhi
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I'm pretty sure Aus has a similar rule making it illegal to deny the holocaust, since there was a fluster a while back querying why the NZ Govt. didn't have one also, when a prominent Canadian denier was trying to enter NZ.

I also seem to remember an academic losing his job last year after supporting a students research into the 'real' number of holocaust victims or something similar.

But then, freedom of speech is not a fundamental right over here. (well, you can say what you want, as long as no-one can prove it :P )

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2005

kandrathe,Dec 14 2005, 08:56 PM Wrote:Simple enough to google "Jewish Media" and get tons of anti-semitic sites.
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OK, how would that be a productive search? Sorry I asked.

Doc, can Seinfeld cast fireball? :blink:

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2005

whyBish,Dec 14 2005, 10:46 PM Wrote:I'm pretty sure Aus has a similar rule making it illegal to deny the holocaust, since there was a fluster a while back querying why the NZ Govt. didn't have one also, when a prominent Canadian denier was trying to enter NZ.

I also seem to remember an academic losing his job last year after supporting a students research into the 'real' number of holocaust victims or something similar.

But then, freedom of speech is not a fundamental right over here.&nbsp; (well, you can say what you want, as long as no-one can prove it&nbsp; :P )
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Why is that singled out as deserving special protection, and why is research into detail forbidden? How bizarre!

I'd think academic rigor would welcome the standard detailed look into history, as revisionists and other historians do all the time on a hundred topics (why else yet another book/dissertation on the US Civil War, for example) rather than ban a particular avenue of research. That seems intellectually dishonest.

I mean, is it that important that 5.72 million versus 6.11 million died in the Holocaust? Probably not, but people on the PhD path have researched far more trivial detail than that without being arrested or sanctioned.

What happened to "the search for truth" and "contributing to the body of knowledge?" Are people also banned from researching Mao and China's holocaust during the period 1950 to 1970, or is that OK due to racial, political, or cultural classification?

I'd like to understand this, it makes little sense to me.

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2005

Doc,Dec 14 2005, 06:45 PM Wrote:Hollywood, the news, the newspapers, the tv, etc. Jews own the banks, banks control the money, money controls the media. It's a deeply layered paranoid dillusion... And I don't wish to discuss it much.

And Jerry Seinfeld has mystical Jewish wizard powers to poison and destroy the Aryan mind through television broadcast signals and is, in fact, the messenger of Satan come to destroy us all.

I am surrounded by idiots.
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Doc. One word about banks: Rothschild.

Ever heard of that family? They aren't Irish and they don't wear kilts.

Niall Ferguson wrote a remarkably detailed two volume study of their influence on Western politics and proto-international finance. Fascinating stuff, if a bit dry and a bit sycophantic in tone. Of course, since the family allowed him access to previously unreleased memoirs and books, and apparently financial details, it was no surprise he wrote in a sympathetic tone. They allowed him to scoop other historians. :whistling:

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Fragbait - 12-15-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 14 2005, 04:59 PM Wrote:Frag, I suspect I do not correctly understand the laws you refer to. Can you explain them to me, in the interest of providing me a better clue?
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Hi,

In Germany (but also in Österreich and a few other countries), denying the Holocaust is illegal and actionable.

German Wikipedia on it

It is illegal, beause it

- is propaganda for unconstitutional organisations
- is considered sedition
- is decrial of the keepsake of our departed
- is considered defamation

In § 130 paragraph 3 StGB it says:

"Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus begangene Handlung der in § 6 Abs. 1 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches [=Völkermord] bezeichneten Art in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost."

quick translation:

"Anyone who endorses, denies or plays down an action commited during the reign of 'Nationalsozialismus' which is defined in § 6 par. 1 of the Völkerstrafgesetzbuch [=genocide], openly or in an assemblage, in a way that may disturb the public peace, will be prosecuted with up to five years of prison sentence or will be imposed a fine upon."

Nationalsozialismus = the name that Hitler's regime gave itself
Völkerstrafgesetzbuch = code of law that deals with public international law

Such an assertion does according to German judges not fall under freedom of expression when it states something which is evidentally (that means via witnesses, proofs, pieces of evidence, documentation etc.) untrue.

Germany included this into the codes of law, because we wanted to pull a final stroke under the chapter of WWII, and wanted to show our consternation about our actions during this period. We are never going to let something like this happen again. Because Germans want to avoid being thought of as 'nazis' nowadays (often noticable when used as a swear-word) at all costs, we are determined to make nazi's life a misery. We want to make clear to all nazis and to the world, that we have changed, and that we don't (and never will) forget what we did in the first half of the 20th century.


Greetings, Fragbait

Oh - one more thing. If you are reading this and your nickname is Frag, and you're relatively new to the Lounge - you weren't spoken to. Just in case. :)

Iran president denies holocaust - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2005

Fragbait,Dec 15 2005, 05:18 AM Wrote:Hi,
- is propaganda for unconstitutional organisations
- is considered sedition
- is decrial of the keepsake of our departed
- is considered defamation

In § 130 paragraph 3 StGB it says:

"Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus begangene Handlung der in § 6 Abs. 1 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches [=Völkermord] bezeichneten Art in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost."

Nationalsozialismus = the name that Hitler's regime gave itself
Völkerstrafgesetzbuch = code of law that deals with public international law

Such an assertion does according to German judges not fall under freedom of expression when it states something which is evidentally (that means via witnesses, proofs, pieces of evidence, documentation etc.) untrue.

Greetings, Fragbait
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Thanks for the explanation. We learn something new every day. B) Note: I think the English word might be "evidentially" or "evidentiary," but I am not lawyer enough to know which use would be correct in that context.

I like a law that criminalizes lying when evidence shows the lie to be such. Why save it for the courtroom, where perjury findings result in lying punished?

Why confine such a law to the Final Solution policy? Given how important the truth is to free speech, and the damaging impact of lies (these aren't the droids you are looking for ;) hurt the Empire, eh? ) libel and slander laws need sharper teeth.

I'd like to see such a law punishing lying in the face of evidence here in Texas.

It would put LULAC and La Raza out of business here, which would be fine by me, thouhg it would probably ruin many a car salesman's career. Such a law even mildly enforced might clear the field for our next governor's election (2006), since most of the Democrats and Republicans would be in jail! This would leave the field clear for Kinky Friedman (a song writer, humorist and novelist) to make a run at the Governonrship successfully, rather than as the side show it currently appears to be.

Think Jesse Ventura with more brains and less brawn.

Occhi

Iran president denies holocaust - Fragbait - 12-19-2005

Occhidiangela,Dec 15 2005, 05:43 PM Wrote:Note:&nbsp; I think the English word might be "evidentially" or "evidentiary," but I am not lawyer enough to know which use would be correct in that context.
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Oops.

I meant to say evidently. Actually, I did say evidently, did I not? Yes. I knew I said evidently. I evidentally said evidently! :rolleyes:


Greetings, Fragbait