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Three tree rogue build - Kevin - 12-18-2005

So Flitz is going to be 30 soon and I could never decide just what I wanted to do with him but I always figured I'd do a 3 tree build. Right now I'm sitting at:

Assassination Talents - 11 points
# Malice - rank 5/5
# Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
# Murder - rank 2/2
# Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1

Subtlety Talents - 9 points
# Camouflage - rank 5/5
# Opportunity - rank 4/5

And have been pretty happy with murder and relentless strikes in the solo game and I think they will help even more when I get kidney shot next level. I'm working towards improved sap now so that I can have that utility but I won't see it till L38 so I won't have it for Scarlet Monestary.


So I was looking at something like this for the final build

Assassination Talents - 16 points
# Malice - rank 5/5
# Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
# Murder - rank 2/2
# Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1
# Lethality - rank 5/5

Combat Talents - 14 points
# Improved Gouge - rank 3/3
# Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
# Improved Backstab - rank 3/3
# Deflection - rank 5/5
# Riposte - rank 1/1

Subtlety Talents - 21 points
# Camouflage - rank 5/5
# Opportunity - rank 5/5
# Initiative - rank 4/5
# Ghostly Strike - rank 1/1
# Improved Ambush - rank 3/3
# Improved Sap - rank 3/3


Ghostly strike is in there just for another "oh crap" button when soloing and because I figure if I'm that deep in the tree one point for a new talent helps. I'm not really good with the rogue. I have issues when I get an add which make me have to run more frequently than I have with any other class, I need to use engineering tricks more often. So I figure improved gouge will not only help me get around for more backstabs on single targets if I need but will buy me more time if I get an add as well and while dodge will help keep me alive too I just thought I would get more utility out of cheaper SS and a longer lasting gouge.

I figure 4 in initiative (since I put one in ghostly strike) will give me more chances at ambush/kidney shot/back stab openers with the other talents providing damage boosts to ambush and backstab. Groups I would be a lower crit chance backstab/dagger rogue it seems. Dunno, looking for thoughts on it is all. :)

Rogues have just never been the class for me, though I do love going cat form on the druid so I'm not sure why I've never really taken to the rogue who does more damage and has more tricks than the cat.

Three tree rogue build - Chesspiece_face - 12-18-2005

Gnollguy,Dec 18 2005, 02:17 PM Wrote:So I was looking at something like this for the final build

Assassination Talents -  16 points
# Malice - rank 5/5
# Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
# Murder - rank 2/2
# Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1
# Lethality - rank 5/5

Combat Talents -  14 points
# Improved Gouge - rank 3/3
# Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
# Improved Backstab - rank 3/3
# Deflection - rank 5/5
# Riposte - rank 1/1

Subtlety Talents -  21 points
# Camouflage - rank 5/5
# Opportunity - rank 5/5
# Initiative - rank 4/5
# Ghostly Strike - rank 1/1
# Improved Ambush - rank 3/3
# Improved Sap - rank 3/3
[right][snapback]97419[/snapback][/right]

Some thoughts:

1. Regarding Ghostly Strike. I personally feel if you are going that far into Subtlety you should pick up Preperation over Ghostly Strikes. It has far more versatility in regards to being an "Oh Crap" button effectively doubling your use of Evasion and allowing you to solo stuff you never would be able to otherwise. Secondly, with the build you are planning you pass on some of the other passive "oh crap" talants like Lightning Reflexes so if you are going to spend a single talant point you better get the most bang for your buck. And that's Preperation.

*EDIT* When it comes right down to it there's no reason you couldnt just drop one point from Initiative and get both Preperation and Ghostly Strikes for double the utility.

2. As mentioned above, you skip over Lightning reflexes to get Improved Gauge at the beginning of Combat. I think taking Imp Gauge is probably a mistake here when compared to the extra 5% dodge you could get from Lightning strikes. The utility gained from the extra time on Gauge is minimal especially when compared to the damage you will not be taking from the extra dodge. When it comes to gauge, anyway, i find it is most usefull as a kiting technique as opposed to using it for bandages. Just gauge them then run three jumps away. Turn and shoot them, when they get back to you they've taken a bit more damage from the range shot and you are back to full energy ready to lay more whoop-ass on them without any hurt on yourself.

3. Riposte is a great soloing skill. Unfortunately rogues don't have many "utility" skills that are usable while grouping. Kidney Shot, Expose Armor, and Sap being the most prominant. Which brings up a conflict you may find in your build. Do you want more utility while soloing? Or do you want it when grouping? The reality of the rogue is that it's almost always better to go for +damage +crit skills for soloing. they will always beat out the utility skills. That's why so many people use a 21/9/21 build. Depending on what skills you grab with that it can be the most balanced solo - group build. It grabs all the best damage skills while keeping some good group utility like Sap and possibly Improved Expose Armor.

Finally, I think you have a good start there. I think that there are some changes that can be made for efficiency sake depending on which way you want to take it. And whether you will mostly be soloing or grouping.

Three tree rogue build - Kevin - 12-18-2005

Chesspiece_face,Dec 18 2005, 03:30 PM Wrote:Regarding Ghostly Strike.  I personally feel if you are going that far into Subtlety you should pick up Preperation over Ghostly Strikes.  It has far more versatility in regards to being an "Oh Crap" button effectively doubling your use of Evasion and allowing you to solo stuff you never would be able to otherwise. 

Heh, I thought I had preperation in the build.... Yeah, prep is supposed to be there why it wasn't when I posted it I do not know. All your comments on it are very true and valid. :) Ghostly strike was just supposed to be another oh #$%& button with it. So yeah 3 in initiative, 1 ghostly and 1 in preparation.

Quote:2.  As mentioned above, you skip over Lightning reflexes to get Improved Gauge at the beginning of Combat.  I think taking Imp Gauge is probably a mistake here when compared to the extra 5% dodge you could get from Lightning strikes.

I acutally use gouge to get in extra back stabs when soloing and sometimes the 4 seconds isn't also long enough to get the energy back it seems so improved gouge lets me be more sloppy there. I also know that 5% dodge will help with the damage mitigation a lot for the solo stuff but then again +dodge is pretty common

Quote:3.  Riposte is a great soloing skill.  Unfortunately rogues don't have many "utility" skills that are usable while grouping.  Kidney Shot, Expose Armor, and Sap being the most prominant.  Which brings up a conflict you may find in your build.  Do you want more utility while soloing?  Or do you want it when grouping?  The reality of the rogue is that it's almost always better to go for +damage +crit skills for soloing.  they will always beat out the utility skills.  That's why so many people use a 21/9/21 build.  Depending on what skills you grab with that it can be the most balanced solo - group build.  It grabs all the best damage skills while keeping some good group utility like Sap and possibly Improved Expose Armor.

I want a bit of both and I thought really hard about improved cheap shot. The plan is and has been that I will solo pretty much all the time except for instances and I doubt I'll ever raid with a rogue. So really I'll build it to 60 and grind stuff at times and be around if anyone ever needs extra DPS for a group (yeah right). :) So I want some utility to groups and I want more solo power. I was also trying to avoid the cookie cutter build as well but as you mention many things seem to lead back to that. :)


Three tree rogue build - Quark - 12-18-2005

Chesspiece_face,Dec 18 2005, 03:30 PM Wrote:The utility gained from the extra time on Gauge is minimal especially when compared to the damage you will not be taking from the extra dodge.

The time gained from Improved Gouge is very important for gained energy. You don't have to bandage, necessarily, but you can use it to get a combo point while taking 0 damage and still get the energy back for a backstab.

Three tree rogue build - Quark - 12-18-2005

Looks pretty good overall, since you mentioned adding Preparation.

Gnollguy,Dec 18 2005, 02:17 PM Wrote:I have issues when I get an add which make me have to run more frequently than I have with any other class, I need to use engineering tricks more often.
Blade Flurry and Preparation are the only two Rogue abilities that really combat adds. There's Blind, but it's expensive to use every time you get an add. Evasion can help for adds sometimes, but it might not be enough and it might not be ready, so Preparation really helps that. Blade Flurry (especially once 1.9 comes out) will be the best overall, doing double damage while its up (split between the two mobs) and it has a smaller cooldown than most skills.

Quote:So I figure improved gouge will not only help me get around for more backstabs on single targets if I need but will buy me more time if I get an add as well and while dodge will help keep me alive too I just thought I would get more utility out of cheaper SS and a longer lasting gouge.
Improved Gouge has saved my life many times. Improved Sinister Strike is one of those talents that is, for all intents and purposes, required. Blizzard may say no talent is truly required, but even as one who rarely uses SS in raiding, I still say I want it.

Quote:Rogues have just never been the class for me, though I do love going cat form on the druid so I'm not sure why I've never really taken to the rogue who does more damage and has more tricks than the cat.
[right][snapback]97419[/snapback][/right]

With druids, you're more open to different tactics. You can go into catform, but if it's simply not enough, you can switch out to caster, heal up, and either stay in caster or go bear. When your rogue isn't enough, it isn't enough.

Three tree rogue build - Kevin - 12-18-2005

To clear up a little confusion because well I posted the wrong build, but the discussion about why it was wrong is still good I'm putting what I meant to put up originally in this reply.

Assassination Talents - 16 points
# Malice - rank 5/5
# Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
# Murder - rank 2/2
# Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1
# Lethality - rank 5/5

Combat Talents - 14 points
# Improved Gouge - rank 3/3
# Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
# Improved Backstab - rank 3/3
# Deflection - rank 5/5
# Riposte - rank 1/1

Subtlety Talents - 21 points
# Camouflage - rank 5/5
# Opportunity - rank 5/5
# Initiative - rank 3/5
# Ghostly Strike - rank 1/1
# Improved Ambush - rank 3/3
# Improved Sap - rank 3/3
# Preparation - rank 1/1

Three tree rogue build - Concillian - 12-19-2005

I think the more typical 3 tree build is to go 22 / 8 / 21

subtlety for Preparation and 1/2 Cheap shot, Assassination for Cold blood and 8 in combat for Imp. BS.

This is a very utilitarian build. You have group damage options with ambush and BS, soloing you're fine, with an option to blow some cooldowns when you need them, and preparation is there for when things get really insane.

Sustained damage is a little lacking compared to a combat build, and you take more damage solo than you would with points in parry and dodge.

Cold Blood and Preparation are two great talents. The build offers a lot of options in a group setting. Your limitation is the sustained damage after blowing cooldowns, which you lose by not getting to Seal Fate or Blade Fury.

This would be the 'typical' build for a this type build, though there are variations:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...054003003110000



Three tree rogue build - Mavfin - 12-20-2005

Gnollguy,Dec 18 2005, 04:19 PM Wrote:So really I'll build it to 60 and grind stuff at times and be around if anyone ever needs extra DPS for a group (yeah right).  :)  [right][snapback]97425[/snapback][/right]

Well, it *might* happen. If what you are referring to is that everyone wants your tank or your healer, well, there are people working on those, so the day may come. Don't give up hope.



Three tree rogue build - Kevin - 12-20-2005

Mavfin,Dec 20 2005, 09:27 AM Wrote:Well, it *might* happen.  If what you are referring to is that everyone wants your tank or your healer, well, there are people working on those, so the day may come.  Don't give up hope.
[right][snapback]97594[/snapback][/right]

Nah I'm refering to us having a fair number of people that have pretty much just rogues or just hunters and with how slow I am at getting some of teh 5 man content done with my other 60's I would more than likely want to take one of them to finish something anyway. I think this rogue is going to be an alt the way most other people treat alts. He'll just have to compete with 6 or 7 malts as opposed to one main. :)

Three tree rogue build - Alram - 12-20-2005

Gnollguy,Dec 18 2005, 05:10 PM Wrote:To clear up a little confusion because well I posted the wrong build, but the discussion about why it was wrong is still good I'm putting what I meant to put up originally in this reply.

Assassination Talents -  16 points
# Malice - rank 5/5
# Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
# Murder - rank 2/2
# Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1
# Lethality - rank 5/5

Combat Talents -  14 points
# Improved Gouge - rank 3/3
# Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
# Improved Backstab - rank 3/3
# Deflection - rank 5/5
# Riposte - rank 1/1

Subtlety Talents -  21 points
# Camouflage - rank 5/5
# Opportunity - rank 5/5
# Initiative - rank 3/5
# Ghostly Strike - rank 1/1
# Improved Ambush - rank 3/3
# Improved Sap - rank 3/3
# Preparation - rank 1/1
[right][snapback]97428[/snapback][/right]
If I had to choose between Opportunity and Master of Deception, I'd pick Master of Deception. Being spotted by a mob can mean disaster.

I like Improved Eviscerate and Cold Blood very much. These 2 skills are the Boss killers for me at the end game. My eviserates crit for about twice what my ambushes do.

Broadly speaking, rogues can either go the damage route or the stunlock route. Rogoll's build was initially all about damage from ambush and backstab, but increasingly I find the utility of stun more desirable and I am considering respeccing to try out Improved Kidney Shot--hopefully it shortens the timer on Kidney Shot enough so that I can use it twice in a row if needed to keep mobs stunned in an instance.

I have some mixed feelings about backstab in an instance, and therefore about Improved Backstab which seems to me to be more of a party talent rather than a talent for going solo. Obviously backstab deals more damage than SS. However, the necessity for putting yourself behind the mob makes it unuseable at times; the same is true for ambush vs. CS. When there are a ton of mobs, or even only one who is not standing still, getting the right position can be frustrating and hard or impossible to achieve. And sometimes if you get behind a mob you risk sggroing or mobs by your proximity. If you are playing with a tank who does not appreciate your positioning needs, this can also be an issue.

Rogues are fun.

Three tree rogue build - Kevin - 12-20-2005

Alram,Dec 20 2005, 12:44 PM Wrote:If I had to choose between Opportunity and Master of Deception, I'd pick Master of Deception. Being spotted by a mob can mean disaster.

I like Improved Eviscerate and Cold Blood very much. These 2 skills are the Boss killers for me at the end game. My eviserates crit for about twice what my ambushes do.

Broadly speaking, rogues can either go the damage route or the stunlock route.  Rogoll's build was initially all about damage from ambush and backstab, but increasingly I find the utility of stun more desirable and I am considering respeccing to try out Improved Kidney Shot--hopefully it shortens the timer on Kidney Shot enough so that I can use it twice in a row if needed to keep mobs stunned in an instance.

I have some mixed feelings about backstab in an instance, and therefore about Improved Backstab which seems to me to be more of a party talent rather than a talent for going solo. Obviously backstab deals more damage than SS.  However, the necessity for putting yourself behind the mob makes it unuseable at times; the same is true for ambush vs. CS. When there are a ton of mobs, or even only one who is not standing still, getting the right position can be frustrating and hard or impossible to achieve. And sometimes if you get behind a mob you risk sggroing or mobs by your proximity.  If you are playing with a tank who does not appreciate your positioning needs, this can also be an issue.

Rogues are fun.
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Well I've played druid cats in instances so I'm well aware of the positioning issues and if I have to sinister strike, I have to sinister strike, so may damage goes down. Oh well, that's why I have weapon swap macro's get a sword in my main hand fast so I can hit harder on SS. :)

As for MotD, my druid is pretty much never seen by a mob if I'm paying attention and I don't have the very powerful distract to turn them around or make them stand still. I'm really not too worried about being spotted in stealth so opportunity seemed a much better choice for me. If I get spotted on a sap and vanish fails, I just die, eat the repair cost and get the rez.

Three tree rogue build - vor_lord - 12-20-2005

Alram,Dec 20 2005, 10:44 AM Wrote:I like Improved Eviscerate and Cold Blood very much. These 2 skills are the Boss killers for me at the end game. My eviserates crit for about twice what my ambushes do.

Broadly speaking, rogues can either go the damage route or the stunlock route.  Rogoll's build was initially all about damage from ambush and backstab, but increasingly I find the utility of stun more desirable and I am considering respeccing to try out Improved Kidney Shot--hopefully it shortens the timer on Kidney Shot enough so that I can use it twice in a row if needed to keep mobs stunned in an instance.

I have some mixed feelings about backstab in an instance, and therefore about Improved Backstab which seems to me to be more of a party talent rather than a talent for going solo.

[right][snapback]97628[/snapback][/right]

So my baby rogue is occupying my alt time right now, and I'm having a lot of fun with her. I die a lot because I don't have the sense to run.

As far as spec, I have been wanting to pick people's brains about it.

First, Aah is going to do WSG. PvP is a consideration. I also want to make a party-friendly rogue. I'm going to be an engineer (yes, I will have a character that is not a gatherer) so I can make lots of bombs. I have been planning on avoiding backstab and ambush (not sure about that now). I am not at all averse to weapon switching either (with stuns and gouges and energy recovery the rogue wasn't hurt as badly as the warrior with the new cooldown, at least so it seems to my n00b ways).

Since I want a party-friendly rogue, that means I'll be getting pretty deep into subtlety. I like Cold Blood and Preparation (I saw you single-handedly save the day vs. Ras Friday with it) for their utility.

I've been heavily considering a hemo sword build. With enough attack power it can be as good as improved sinister strike. One variant would be to pick up Opportunity and Improved Ambush (for another opener), another would be to avoid them. 3 points into combat for improved gouge, and get improved cheapshot.

Something like this

My hope is this build will be a good stunning build for WSG, and have good party utility.

Recommendations? I have no rogue experience to speak of. If Hemo seems silly to people, then the 3 tree build is probably what I'll end up with, along with a weapon swap macro for SS potentially. Another build that appeals to me is a seal fate build, but not sure if that synergizes well with improved sap and preparation.

Three tree rogue build - VoiceMan - 12-20-2005

Aah's Sinister Rogue Sister Ooh is looking to be a complimentary partner to Aah, in the build. Currently I'm leaning heavily towards the traditional PvP dagger build, as WSG will be a place these rogues frequent. We'll be the "Invincible Defenders"!! :P However, I too have virtually no rogue experience, and I mainly want to build one that is very effective in WSG, good in party play, and yet still able to solo. :P How's that for a tall order? Isn't that what most chars want to be able to do? Basically, I too am open to suggestions. I just didn't think going the same spec build as Aah would be the best thing, I want to be a good complimentary build to fit with Aah.

Three tree rogue build - Concillian - 12-20-2005

VoiceMan,Dec 20 2005, 02:04 PM Wrote:Aah's Sinister Rogue Sister Ooh is looking to be a complimentary partner to Aah, in the build.  Currently I'm leaning heavily towards the traditional PvP dagger build, as WSG will be a place these rogues frequent.  We'll be the "Invincible Defenders"!!  :P  However, I too have virtually no rogue experience, and I mainly want to build one that is very effective in WSG, good in party play, and yet still able to solo.  :P  How's that for a tall order?  Isn't that what most chars want to be able to do?  Basically, I too am open to suggestions. I just didn't think going the same spec build as Aah would be the best thing, I want to be a good complimentary build to fit with Aah.
[right][snapback]97665[/snapback][/right]

I think Cold Blood is pretty much a necessary PvP skill. Especially with 2 rogues. The burst damage of it is too useful to pass up, and the cooldown is not terribly long (3 minutes).

I think improved ambush is also very good for a pair of rogues. 2 rogues ambushing a caster at the same time will take off a huge chunk of life, both doing a CB/ambush = instant death to the caster.

These builds are highly opener dependent, but powerful when they are able to land an opener. Another way to complement would be to go primarily combat so you have Vor being stun / opener and you being better at sustained damage through blade flurry to take advantage of the hemo bonus and Dual weild spec for better sustained damage output.

Vor, you might consider murder. Murder makes an opener NEVER miss (including sap). Missing your opener really, really hurts in a build like yours. Soloing you are going to start using imp. CS a lot, and man it really hurts to miss a CS when you're used to getting 2 or 3 combo points straight off the bat. I'd take points from Imp. SnD for that, since SnD can be refreshed pretty easily (and it's getting easier in 1.9, as you can SnD after someone is dead or out of range)

Three tree rogue build - Treesh - 12-21-2005

Concillian,Dec 20 2005, 06:24 PM Wrote:Vor, you might consider murder.  Murder makes an opener NEVER miss (including sap).  Missing your opener really, really hurts in a build like yours. 
[right][snapback]97680[/snapback][/right]
Murder rocks.

And honestly, it's hard to make a bad spec for a rogue. So you don't have to get completely stressed about having the perfect build (unless you just have that type of personality ;) ).

Three tree rogue build - Frag - 12-21-2005

Concillian,Dec 20 2005, 06:24 PM Wrote:I think Cold Blood is pretty much a necessary PvP skill.  Especially with 2 rogues.  The burst damage of it is too useful to pass up, and the cooldown is not terribly long (3 minutes).

I think improved ambush is also very good for a pair of rogues.  2 rogues ambushing a caster at the same time will take off a huge chunk of life, both doing a CB/ambush = instant death to the caster.

These builds are highly opener dependent, but powerful when they are able to land an opener.  Another way to complement would be to go primarily combat so you have Vor being stun / opener and you being better at sustained damage through blade flurry to take advantage of the hemo bonus and Dual weild spec for better sustained damage output.

Vor, you might consider murder.  Murder makes an opener NEVER miss (including sap).  Missing your opener really, really hurts in a build like yours.  Soloing you are going to start using imp. CS a lot, and man it really hurts to miss a CS when you're used to getting 2 or 3 combo points straight off the bat.  I'd take points from Imp. SnD for that, since SnD can be refreshed pretty easily (and it's getting easier in 1.9, as you can SnD after someone is dead or out of range)
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Couple things I'd like to take a contrary position on here, both because I believe them, but also for good debate, Conc. :)

1. Cold Blood is NOT neccesary, however useful it may be. In some sense it reminds me of MS. Amazing, but the talents you have to take to make it there... leave a little something to be desired, not that there's anything wrong with them per se, but just not... juicy. :)

2. Improved Ambush IS very good, however blowing CB on an ambush just means you wasted 3 talent points and a huge amount of potential. Your chance to crit is so high to begin with on Amush that it's far more efficient to use CB on the finisher.

3. Keep in mind that sometimes for an optimal build (which for rogues, is like trying to find a perfect snowflake... it exists, for you, but be damned if you can find it... I spent nearly 600g respeccing mine, :D I was on 50g respecs before lvl 60 :blush: ) you may need to respec with regards to Murder. It's obviously great for leveling, but as you gain gear, some of which may have +%tohit on it, the talent becomes less and less useful, as the openers all count as yellow hits, and therefore have 95% base tohit. Also if you're taking Precision, Murder doesn't benefit you.

I think you've picked up a lot of good stuff in that build, GG. I personally find Lethality to be a large waste of talent points, but it is additional dmg some of the time, so not unuseful. Precision & Murder don't play nice, as I pointed out above. Lastly you may want to consider full or no ranks in Intiative. It's nice when it happens, but even at 75% it doesn't happen "enough", for me; just something that may annoy you.

My take on your build, GG. My biggest change was dropping the +%tohit talents, as it's fairly easy to find 2-3% off of equipment from Mara and beyond w/o much effort.

Best of luck, Rogue talent specs are great fun!
~Frag B)

Three tree rogue build - Quark - 12-21-2005

Don't discount +hit% beyond 5%. Not only does it help versus higher level mobs (your 5% base miss rate is when your weapon skill = mob's defense skill), it really helps melee damage, since melee miss rate is 24% base.

Many rogues can have their damage be 50% melee based. In that case, a +hit% beyond 5% is about a 0.5% increase in total DPS. Not as good as crit, but you can't always have crit.

Three tree rogue build - Concillian - 12-21-2005

Frag,Dec 21 2005, 12:36 PM Wrote:Couple things I'd like to take a contrary position on here, both because I believe them, but also for good debate, Conc. :)

1. Cold Blood is NOT neccesary, however useful it may be. In some sense it reminds me of MS.  Amazing, but the talents you have to take to make it there... leave a little something to be desired, not that there's anything wrong with them per se, but just not... juicy. :)

No, it's not absolutely necessary, but in PvP (I did preface my initial post with 'in PvP') it is very, very, very useful.

I think the assassination talents are quite good...
Improved Eviscerate is great, as that is usually the finisher of choice, especially so in PvP.
Malice... yeah 5% crit is something few rogues will choose NOT to get, again especially in PvP.
Ruthlessness / Relentless add to sustained damage, mostly helping in soloing and group PvE.
Lethality is most useful with improved BS, SS, or Hem. Not a ton of overall damage, but adds to burst damage in PvP, something generally more important than sustained damage.
Imp. instant poison is where I put my other points, because I find a reasonable amount of my damage is coming from instant poison when I'm soloing (was ~35-40 DPS or so @60 with 0/5 in imp. instant poison, so one point here would be a ~4DPS increase per talent point on average when you have 2 weapons poisoned with deadly poison, not huge, but on a per talent point basis, not horrible either.)

I guess a difference of opinion on the usefulness of the talents.

Quote:2. Improved Ambush IS very good, however blowing CB on an ambush just means you wasted 3 talent points and a huge amount of potential.  Your chance to crit is so high to begin with on Amush that it's far more efficient to use CB on the finisher.

While I agree in most cases, it is not the thing to do to use CB on ambush, there are times where you want to in PvP.

An example would be their 2 rogue team facing mage/priest. You NEED one to go down before he has a chance to react. Else you will be frost nova'd then feared all while being pelted relentlessly. You don't have 5 seconds to get to a finisher, as both have instant cast spells that will instantly reverse the advantage of the situation. If you attack the mage, he will probably instinctively either nova or blink then nova when he sees who he's up against, at which point one will likely be polymorphed while the priest heals the mage, then it's 2 on 1. If you go after the priest, you are in the same situation with fear while the polymorph is cast, then the 2 on 1 action.

If you can take one down in 2-3 seconds, then you have 2 rogues at full health and either a priest or a mage, an almost guaranteed quick win scenario. If you can't, the odds are significantly less favorable.

It's not every case where this is what you want to do, but occasionally 100% crit rate is infinintely better than 60%. Plus, not all builds have improved ambush. I didn't intend to imply that it was something you wanted to use in a majority of situations. I'm sorry if that is how it came across.

Quote:3.  Keep in mind that sometimes for an optimal build (which for rogues, is like trying to find a perfect snowflake... it exists, for you, but be damned if you can find it... I  spent nearly 600g respeccing mine,  :D I was on 50g respecs before lvl 60  :blush: ) you may need to respec with regards to Murder.  It's obviously great for leveling, but as you gain gear, some of which may have +%tohit on it, the talent becomes less and less useful, as the openers all count as yellow hits, and therefore have 95% base tohit.  Also if you're taking Precision, Murder doesn't benefit you.

I agree with that.

However, the person I specifically addressed in regards to this 1) didn't have precision in his build, and 2) I know is likely not going to be 60 with great access to +x% to-hit gear anytime soon. The characters in question are still in their teens. Both are alts with relatively low playtime.

I also agree with Treesh that there really isn't a bad rogue build.

VM, if Vor is going engineering, I'd suggest perhaps you go Blacksmithing just for the purpose of getting this:
Glimmering Mithril Insignia

It's at least as useful as many of the engineering items. WOTF is nice, but pre-emptive anti-fear is even nicer, and Vor, you can probably imagine the feeling a priest would get when they see that yellow 'Immune' pop up after they hit their Psychic Scream key.

Three tree rogue build - Watto44 - 12-22-2005

Quote:An example would be their 2 rogue team facing mage/priest. You NEED one to go down before he has a chance to react. Else you will be frost nova'd then feared all while being pelted relentlessly. You don't have 5 seconds to get to a finisher, as both have instant cast spells that will instantly reverse the advantage of the situation. If you attack the mage, he will probably instinctively either nova or blink then nova when he sees who he's up against, at which point one will likely be polymorphed while the priest heals the mage, then it's 2 on 1. If you go after the priest, you are in the same situation with fear while the polymorph is cast, then the 2 on 1 action.

Just nit-picking (since my knowledge of rogues is virtually nil) but that's probably not a good example, given that one rogue could sap the priest which would give plenty of time to take down the mage. (As long as the second rogue stayed out of nova range while the first one sapped.)

I see where you're coming from though. From a druid's perspective, I much prefer it when rogues open with cheap shot rather than ambush. (Although that is mostly because I'm not specced to nature's swiftness at the moment.)

Three tree rogue build - VoiceMan - 12-22-2005

Hmmm....all good advice, for this n00b rogue. My experience in WSG has been mostly as a druid, where I spend my time trying to avoid rogues and their stuns and sick, unrighteous, disgusting DPS. :P Both Ooh and Aah have originally gone with Engineering, but that can easily be changed, as it's still early. Would Blacksmithing yield anything in the early going that would be beneficial? I think we went Engineering to be able to create bombs, which I use now, even at 14, and find to be helpful. It's the only real range attack I have. Throwing my rough throwing axes dont' do enough damage to even worry about. ;)