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+--- Thread: Chance to hit with spells (/thread-4437.html)
Chance to hit with spells - Magicbag - 05-02-2006
It is my initial understanding that for current bosses (mlvl 63) that change to hit exceeds all other abilities for DPS increase due to minimized resists. Furthermore, this is especially true with frost builds as the binary spell resists currenty deal ZERO damage.
I believe there is a softcap where +hit gear doesn't help that much compared to +dam or crit. However for the persuit of theorycraft lets take a typical lvl 63 boss attempt. What abilities should I be getting from my gear for max DPS?
I'm guessing 4-6% hit is a the top of the list and I've seen that 1% crit ~= 15 +dam. Please tell me from your experience what you think is the case.
Thanks,
-MB
Chance to hit with spells - Lissa - 05-02-2006
Magicbag,May 2 2006, 08:52 AM Wrote:It is my initial understanding that for current bosses (mlvl 63) that change to hit exceeds all other abilities for DPS increase due to minimized resists. Furthermore, this is especially true with frost builds as the binary spell resists currenty deal ZERO damage.
I believe there is a softcap where +hit gear doesn't help that much compared to +dam or crit. However for the persuit of theorycraft lets take a typical lvl 63 boss attempt. What abilities should I be getting from my gear for max DPS?
I'm guessing 4-6% hit is a the top of the list and I've seen that 1% crit ~= 15 +dam. Please tell me from your experience what you think is the case.
Thanks,
-MB
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From my experience with +3% to hit, 4 to 6% seems to be on the low side to maximize DPS. I have a feeling you would have to shot for around the same level that Hunters do, about 8%.
Chance to hit with spells - Xanthix - 05-02-2006
Here's the Blizzard post on how +spell hit works:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...=1&tmp=1#post37
Based on that info, you would still get bonuses from +spell hit for 17% total +spell hit, since the chance to hit a level 63 mob would be 83%. For binary spells, I don't know if you get additional benefit from +spell hit beyond 17%. (It depends on if your chance to hit is capped at 100% before the binary resistance is applied.)
Whether each point of +spell hit is as useful as the last I couldn't say - people better at math will have to compare the marginal percentage gains.
Another factor is that presumably when fighting level 61 trash, only 5% +spell hit is useful, so beyond that you don't get any added benefit vs. some mobs.
Chance to hit with spells - TheWesson - 05-02-2006
Xanthix,May 2 2006, 10:43 AM Wrote:Here's the Blizzard post on how +spell hit works:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...=1&tmp=1#post37
Based on that info, you would still get bonuses from +spell hit for 17% total +spell hit, since the chance to hit a level 63 mob would be 83%. For binary spells, I don't know if you get additional benefit from +spell hit beyond 17%. (It depends on if your chance to hit is capped at 100% before the binary resistance is applied.)
Whether each point of +spell hit is as useful as the last I couldn't say - people better at math will have to compare the marginal percentage gains.
Another factor is that presumably when fighting level 61 trash, only 5% +spell hit is useful, so beyond that you don't get any added benefit vs. some mobs.
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I'd like to know how spell-miss works when the mob is firing spells at you. The same way?
What about % resist when you *are* hit? Works the same as a mob resisting your spells?
Anyhow, +1% to-hit is slightly better than +1% damage, declining to almost the same as 1% more damage as your to-hit approaches 100%, and being of course worthless if the mob is already at the minimal 1% to-be-missed relative to you.
If you had only 5% chance of hitting some mob with your spell, then +1% to-hit would be the same as 20% more damage (that's my impression of how it works.)
I don't know if the spell-miss due to *level difference* is affected by spell-to-hit. Some people think not apparently. If that's the case, then any more than +4% to-hit is really wasted (except on mobs which have resistances.)
Chance to hit with spells - Wogan - 05-03-2006
Good to see Spell Hit remains the most misunderstood statistic.
First thing to understand is there are TWO types of resist. The first is based on level difference between you and your target, and is a binary hit or miss. This is the resist that Spell Hit affects.
The second is resistance based upon the Spell Resistance stat of your target. These resists can be 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of the damage resisted for normal spells (fireball, shadowbolt), or for binary spells (frostbolt) it either hits for full, or resists 100%. -Resist gear (aka Spell Penetration) affects this type of resist.
I often see people say "+hit is better for binary spells", or similar. This is not true. 1% Spell Hit has the same effect whether you are casting Frostbolt or Fireball.
Chance to hit with spells - Lissa - 05-03-2006
Wogan,May 2 2006, 07:32 PM Wrote:Good to see Spell Hit remains the most misunderstood statistic.
First thing to understand is there are TWO types of resist. The first is based on level difference between you and your target, and is a binary hit or miss. This is the resist that Spell Hit affects.
The second is resistance based upon the Spell Resistance stat of your target. These resists can be 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of the damage resisted for normal spells (fireball, shadowbolt), or for binary spells (frostbolt) it either hits for full, or resists 100%. -Resist gear (aka Spell Penetration) affects this type of resist.
I often see people say "+hit is better for binary spells", or similar. This is not true. 1% Spell Hit has the same effect whether you are casting Frostbolt or Fireball.
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I believe Magic is talking about the white resists, ie misses. I know that in my post, that is what I am referring to (which is what +spell hit helps again).
Chance to hit with spells - TheWesson - 05-03-2006
Wogan,May 2 2006, 06:32 PM Wrote:Good to see Spell Hit remains the most misunderstood statistic.
First thing to understand is there are TWO types of resist. The first is based on level difference between you and your target, and is a binary hit or miss. This is the resist that Spell Hit affects.
The second is resistance based upon the Spell Resistance stat of your target. These resists can be 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of the damage resisted for normal spells (fireball, shadowbolt), or for binary spells (frostbolt) it either hits for full, or resists 100%. -Resist gear (aka Spell Penetration) affects this type of resist.
I often see people say "+hit is better for binary spells", or similar. This is not true. 1% Spell Hit has the same effect whether you are casting Frostbolt or Fireball.
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I'm sure level difference causes spell misses.
But, this URL:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/resistances.html
seems to clearly indicate that magical resistance can cause a direct-damage spell to be resisted entirely (besides some possibility of causing 0% damage.)
So you're saying that +%to-hit doesn't affect the 'resist-altogether' possibility of a spell? That 'resist-spell' is NOT what we're calling a 'spell miss'?
Because, you see, it sure looks like magical resistance can bring about a binary 'miss', from the above URL....
Chance to hit with spells - Lissa - 05-03-2006
TheWesson,May 2 2006, 10:19 PM Wrote:I'm sure level difference causes spell misses.
But, this URL:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/resistances.html
seems to clearly indicate that magical resistance can cause a direct-damage spell to be resisted entirely (besides some possibility of causing 0% damage.)
So you're saying that +%to-hit doesn't affect the 'resist-altogether' possibility of a spell? That 'resist-spell' is NOT what we're calling a 'spell miss'?
Because, you see, it sure looks like magical resistance can bring about a binary 'miss', from the above URL....
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There are two resists, white resist (a miss) and yellow resist (spell resistance). spell to hit helps against white resist, spell penetration helps against yellow resist.
Chance to hit with spells - redinter - 05-03-2006
I have 6% chance to hit on my gear, I have seen it help lots against raid bosses and am pretty happy with it. I still have the odd white resist here and there, but its clearly reduced.
For me its the most valuable stat, over +dmg and over crit. I play a warlock, so with the help of CoS/CoE, yellow resists are minimized, and where it really hurts, is to miss a DoT or a SB. Keep in mind that on some fights, like Vael, every hit counts, as you are on a timer, so even if on the long run the damage you do would be the same, if you had +dmg gear instead of +tohit gear, in practice missing a spell can really make a difference. Same goes for utility spells, missing a banish can cause a mob to do more mayhem than needed, usually not a big factor, but why risk it.
Chance to hit with spells - Wogan - 05-03-2006
TheWesson,May 3 2006, 01:19 PM Wrote:I'm sure level difference causes spell misses.
But, this URL:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/resistances.html
seems to clearly indicate that magical resistance can cause a direct-damage spell to be resisted entirely (besides some possibility of causing 0% damage.)
So you're saying that +%to-hit doesn't affect the 'resist-altogether' possibility of a spell? That 'resist-spell' is NOT what we're calling a 'spell miss'?
Because, you see, it sure looks like magical resistance can bring about a binary 'miss', from the above URL....
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Interesting, but I'd probably put that down to Blizzards web department getting it wrong. (If you do the weighted average ignoring the first row, you get the same total resist as mentioned in the first table, as expected.)
What I mean is any "yellow" resist is basically a 100% resist of the damage (and therefore any other effects such as the dot on fireball).
Out of interest, does the client actually display resists in different colours? I've never noticed that...
Chance to hit with spells - Xanthix - 05-03-2006
Wogan,May 3 2006, 03:57 AM Wrote:What I mean is any "yellow" resist is basically a 100% resist of the damage (and therefore any other effects such as the dot on fireball).
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My understanding is that once your spell "hits" (beats the roll against the miss chance based on level and +spell hit gear), then resistances are factored in.
If the spell is a binary spell, it is either outright resisted or not resisted at all, at a percentage dictated by the resistance formulas. Binary by definition means "can only be fully resisted or not resisted" and is used for spells with DOTs or snares where a partial resist would be difficult to implement.
If the spell is not binary, then it can be 100% resisted or 75% resisted, 50% resisted, etc. Some formula is used to calculate this such that if the target has, say, 37% resistance to the spell element, then on average (over many spellcasts), 37% of the damage will be resisted.
Chance to hit with spells - TheWesson - 05-03-2006
TheWesson,May 2 2006, 03:59 PM Wrote:I don't know if the spell-miss due to *level difference* is affected by spell-to-hit. Some people think not apparently. If that's the case, then any more than +4% to-hit is really wasted (except on mobs which have resistances.)
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I recall now that the post I read stated that Warlock Curse of Shadows/Elements will not affect spell-miss due to level. In other words, CoS or CoE can't have the same effect as +%-to-hit ...