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+--- Thread: Ow...my head hurts... (/thread-4392.html)
Ow...my head hurts... - Lissa - 05-10-2006
Anyone taken a look at the Draeni site at Burning Crusade? Talk about totally destroying their own lore. In essence, the lore has been changed as follows:
Original Lore: Sargeras encountered the Eredar and despaired over their limitless evil they represented. Eventually, Sargeras formed the Burning Legion around the Eredar with Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan as his chief lieutents.
New Lore: Sargeras encountered the Eredar and wanted to make them part of the Burning Legion. So he offered near limitless power to them with the 3 main leaders of the Eredar being Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden, and Velen. Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden accepted by Velen was weary. Velen was then encountered by a race of light, the Nauru, that offered Velen and other Eredar a way out from the corruption that was coming and they took it. They renamed themselves the Draeni (Exiles in Eredan) and searched for a place to live uncorrupted. Kil'Jaedan vowed to hunt down the Draeni for their actions.
Eventually the Draeni settled on the world that the Orcs lived on and Draenor. Eventually, Kil'Jaeden tracked them down, but instead of direct open warfare against the Draeni, he corrupted the Orcs and the Orcs then killed 80% of the Draeni.
The reason for the existance of the Broken and Lost Ones is they are degenerate Draeni that were effected by the felpowers used by the Orcs and it twisted and corrupted them.
Ow...my head hurts... - lemekim - 05-10-2006
To paraphrase Blizzard, the new Alliance race and lore behind it did make me go "wha...", but I don't feel that the "Oh, now it makes sense" is coming any time soon.
Edit: Dimensional ships? Are they even trying anymore?
Ow...my head hurts... - Raelynn - 05-10-2006
This line just bothers me:
"And more recently, the Blood Elves stole technology from the Draenei and also sabotaged their dimensional ship, which crash landed on Azeroth."
It seems they are claiming that there were uncorrupted Draenei that made it to Azeroth without any information being known about this group prior, as well as no one ever finding whatever city they will call their capital....
I really just don't like this hack of a job.
Ow...my head hurts... - Monkey - 05-10-2006
Oh! but you *missed* the best part in the FAQ :
Quote:And more recently, the Blood Elves stole technology from the Draenei and also sabotaged their dimensional ship, which crash landed on Azeroth.
I included a snarky comment about Captain Kirk and the Alliance over in the other thread. For variety, allow me to add, "Ah, so the Naaru are the ones who made the Protoss. IT ALL MAKES SENSE,"
C'mon, Blizzard, your (mostly paying) fanbase wrote better lore than this on a moment's notice yesterday. The speculation over the last 6 months generated better more compatible lore. I can even do it right here:
Quote:And more recently, the Blood Elves stole Naaru energy stones from the Draenei refugees, who were deposited by the Naaru on Azeroth, the only world which has withstood 3 invasions by the Burning Legion.
Edits: Removed redundant quotes, added my 'Instant Lore'.
Ow...my head hurts... - oldmandennis - 05-10-2006
Old
Quote:Over time, demonic entities made their way into the Titans' worlds from the Twisting Nether, and the Pantheon elected its greatest warrior, Sargeras, to act as its first line of defense. Over the eons, Sargeras encountered two powerful demonic races, both of which were bent on gaining power and dominance over the physical universe.
The eredar, an insidious race of devilish sorcerers, used their warlock magics to invade and enslave a number of worlds. Though Sargeras' nearly limitless powers were more than enough to defeat the vile eredar, he was greatly troubled by the creatures' corruption and all-consuming evil. Incapable of fathoming such depravity, the great Titan began to slip into a brooding depression.
New
Quote:Unfortunately the Eredar's accomplishments caught the attention of Sargeras, the Destroyer of Worlds. He had already begun his Burning Crusade to eradicate all life from the cosmos, and he believed that the brilliant eredar would be pivotal in leading the vast demonic army he was gathering. Thus, he contacted the Eredar's three most prominent leaders: Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and Velen. In exchange for the loyalty of the eredar race, Sargeras offered untold power and knowledge.
I officially don't care about lore anymore. Not caring about the game may follow, especially if the Shaman trees go live the way they are proposed.
Ow...my head hurts... - MongoJerry - 05-10-2006
*Shrug* From someone who never played the Warcraft series, the new histories sounded pretty cool. I guess I also have more tolerance for allowing stories to change and evolve over time, especially when it comes to video game stories that, like too many action movies, are usually written on the fly to form an excuse for the action and gameplay. Stories and even histories evolve over time, depending on who tells the tale and what is known by the teller at the time.
Quote:Not caring about the game may follow, especially if the Shaman trees go live the way they are proposed.
I'd be interested in reading your comments down in the shaman talents thread. Rereading your comments there, I don't see any criticisms of this calibre, so perhaps you can elaborate there. My take on the shaman review is that it's an improvement overall but that the review could have done a lot more.
Ow...my head hurts... - Monkey - 05-10-2006
MongoJerry,May 10 2006, 05:22 PM Wrote:*Shrug* From someone who never played the Warcraft series, the new histories sounded pretty cool. I guess I also have more tolerance for allowing stories to change and evolve over time, especially when it comes to video game stories that, like too many action movies, are usually written on the fly to form an excuse for the action and gameplay. Stories and even histories evolve over time, depending on who tells the tale and what is known by the teller at the time.
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The irritating thing here isn't that the change in lore will affect myself (or any of us, really) in a real-world way. Tomorrow the sun will rise and the world will continue. But we expect better stewardship of the lore from Blizzard. Lore Geeks expect that Blizzard's devotion to continuity means that they won't go back and have Greedo Shoot First, if you will.
For those of us who enjoy the deep lore behind WoW, this breaks the immersive quality in the same way that seeing the cracks in the structure of Azeroth breaks the immersive experience of the game. Sargaras and the Eredar aren't real, but we want to believe the stories we've been told about them to be accurate and solid, not malleable at each turn of the plot.
Ow...my head hurts... - Mavfin - 05-10-2006
Monkey,May 10 2006, 04:47 PM Wrote:The irritating thing here isn't that the change in lore will affect myself (or any of us, really) in a real-world way. Tomorrow the sun will rise and the world will continue. But we expect better stewardship of the lore from Blizzard. Lore Geeks expect that Blizzard's devotion to continuity means that they won't go back and have Greedo Shoot First, if you will.
For those of us who enjoy the deep lore behind WoW, this breaks the immersive quality in the same way that seeing the cracks in the structure of Azeroth breaks the immersive experience of the game. Sargaras and the Eredar aren't real, but we want to believe the stories we've been told about them to be accurate and solid, not malleable at each turn of the plot.
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Actually, it didn't break *anything* for me. I thought they explained it nicely. :P
Before this, we knew the Draenei were on Draenor. We just had no knowledge of their prior history, or that the Eredar and the Draenei are connected. Oh, sure, call it a hack job if you want, but, it's Blizzard's story, let them tell it. I didn't see any contradictions in it....
Ow...my head hurts... - MongoJerry - 05-10-2006
Monkey,May 10 2006, 02:47 PM Wrote:For those of us who enjoy the deep lore behind WoW, this breaks the immersive quality in the same way that seeing the cracks in the structure of Azeroth breaks the immersive experience of the game. Sargaras and the Eredar aren't real, but we want to believe the stories we've been told about them to be accurate and solid, not malleable at each turn of the plot.
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No, I understand. I really do. I guess I'm not understanding the degree to which the lore has changed, because I didn't play the original Warcraft series. Are we talking about a few minor details like everyone pictured the Draenei as pushovers when it turns out that they are more than people thought? That's fine, because that just means you didn't have the full story before, so this simply fleshes things out. On the other hand, is the issue that the new lore suddenly makes Sargaras from the ultimate good guy to the ultimate bad guy? Now that I can understand would be counter-immersive.
Ow...my head hurts... - lemekim - 05-10-2006
MongoJerry,May 10 2006, 09:57 PM Wrote:No, I understand. I really do. I guess I'm not understanding the degree to which the lore has changed, because I didn't play the original Warcraft series. Are we talking about a few minor details like everyone pictured the Draenei as pushovers when it turns out that they are more than people thought? That's fine, because that just means you didn't have the full story before, so this simply fleshes things out. On the other hand, is the issue that the new lore suddenly makes Sargaras from the ultimate good guy to the ultimate bad guy? Now that I can understand would be counter-immersive.
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Something like the latter.
In the original lore, Sargeras was the chosen champion of the Pantheon of Titans, dedicated to eradicating evil and chaos throughout the Universe (more or less). It was the Eredar who started to turn him crazy, and after that the Nathrezim (Dreadlords) who eventually made him mad and evil. So the corruption happened a long while after he met (already evil) Eredar, and even after meeting of the Nathrezim, where those two races were essentially the source of his corruption.
In the new lore... Sargeras was already evil when he met Eredar, and he was the one who turned them evil, and only a handful of Eredar escaped under leadership of Velen and became Draenei. Which pretty much shatters all the lore about that time period, and makes us question, who was Sargeras, was he ever even good, and if he was, who corrupted him, and what the hell is going on.
Oh, and Dimensional ships?
Ow...my head hurts... - Lissa - 05-10-2006
MongoJerry,May 10 2006, 02:22 PM Wrote:*Shrug* From someone who never played the Warcraft series, the new histories sounded pretty cool. I guess I also have more tolerance for allowing stories to change and evolve over time, especially when it comes to video game stories that, like too many action movies, are usually written on the fly to form an excuse for the action and gameplay. Stories and even histories evolve over time, depending on who tells the tale and what is known by the teller at the time.
I'd be interested in reading your comments down in the shaman talents thread. Rereading your comments there, I don't see any criticisms of this calibre, so perhaps you can elaborate there. My take on the shaman review is that it's an improvement overall but that the review could have done a lot more.
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The real problem is though Mongo...the old lore is in game right now. Go into the Library of Scarlet Monastery sometime and look for some of the books. Look specifically for books that talk about the titans and burning crusade (their titles will mention this) and read through them. The lore present in game is being contradicted by this drivel that Blizzard is using to make the Draeni what they are.
The other major problem is now their is going to be a worse population imbalance than before. Take a look at the Blizzard forums and the number of Horde players saying they're going to switch to Alliance now, and how many high level characters they are giving up, to play Draeni. If Blizzard wanted to fix the population imbalance, they have a very strange way of doing so.
Ow...my head hurts... - Monkey - 05-10-2006
MongoJerry,May 10 2006, 05:57 PM Wrote:No, I understand. I really do. I guess I'm not understanding the degree to which the lore has changed, because I didn't play the original Warcraft series. Are we talking about a few minor details like everyone pictured the Draenei as pushovers when it turns out that they are more than people thought? That's fine, because that just means you didn't have the full story before, so this simply fleshes things out. On the other hand, is the issue that the new lore suddenly makes Sargaras from the ultimate good guy to the ultimate bad guy? Now that I can understand would be counter-immersive.
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Yeah, it's not about the Draenei losing an 8-year war, it's how they got in that situation. The Eredar were supposed to be a pure evil race bent on enslaving worlds upon worlds. Sargaras becomes the 'destroyer of worlds' because he goes mad, unable to comprehend the depth of the Evil within the Nazthreim and Eredar.
And, there's the question of the Shamanistic Heritage of The Broken. Where did that come from if they were originally of The Light and after their corruption, despised the shamanistic Orcs? Or is Blizzard going to tell us that Paladins are really just Shaman with light spells instead of nature spells?
Finally, the ship. Since fighting orcs corrupts you, these guys left at the start of the war...and have been looking for a home for 40 years? Then they just happened to crash into Azeroth, which (what luck!) has other people of The Light?
Why couldn't the Naaru scoop some up, clean them of the corruption (a rollback if you will), and set them on Azeroth instead? I mean, Azeroth is a pretty good place to prep a counter-attack on the Legion--the planet has repelled 3 invasions. And the Draenei you scoop up would be highly motivated. In any case, that's going to make for some awkward moments in the Swamp of Sorrows and with any Draenei in Outland:
"What it is, my Draenei brother?" (attempts high-five with a Lost One)
"Die, COWARD!" (stabs draeneiadin in the face).
Ow...my head hurts... - MongoJerry - 05-10-2006
Monkey,May 10 2006, 03:19 PM Wrote:Yeah, it's not about the Draenei losing an 8-year war, it's how they got in that situation. The Eredar were supposed to be a pure evil race bent on enslaving worlds upon worlds. Sargaras becomes the 'destroyer of worlds' because he goes mad, unable to comprehend the depth of the Evil within the Nazthreim and Eredar.
I understand you there. This definitely seems to be a lore problem.
Quote:And, there's the question of the Shamanistic Heritage of The Broken. Where did that come from if they were originally of The Light and after their corruption, despised the shamanistic Orcs? Or is Blizzard going to tell us that Paladins are really just Shaman with light spells instead of nature spells?
Here, I think you're not allowing for variety within races. We haven't heard the full story of The Broken, but one idea off the top of my head is that while most of the Dreanei and orcs remained seperate on their world, some of the Draenei chose to associate more with the orcs than others and learned and adopted a shamanistic tradition from them. In effect, some of them "went native."
Quote:Finally, the ship. Since fighting orcs corrupts you, these guys left at the start of the war...and have been looking for a home for 40 years? Then they just happened to crash into Azeroth, which (what luck!) has other people of The Light?
Why couldn't the Naaru scoop some up, clean them of the corruption (a rollback if you will), and set them on Azeroth instead? I mean, Azeroth is a pretty good place to prep a counter-attack on the Legion--the planet has repelled 3 invasions. And the Draenei you scoop up would be highly motivated. In any case, that's going to make for some awkward moments in the Swamp of Sorrows and with any Draenei in Outland:[right][snapback]109544[/snapback][/right]
We don't know enough recent history of this particular group of Dreanei or their ship, so we can't say. Heck, it's possible that the Naaru arranged for them to crash land on Azeroth precisely for the reason you describe. *shrug*
I still don't see how a dimensional ship is any less believable than the Dark Portal.
Ow...my head hurts... - Brother Laz - 05-10-2006
Monkey,May 10 2006, 08:11 PM Wrote:I included a snarky comment about Captain Kirk and the Alliance over in the other thread. For variety, allow me to add, "Ah, so the Naaru are the ones who made the Protoss. IT ALL MAKES SENSE,"
It's part of a quest. The ship is called 'NORAD II' and you join the "SONS OF KORHAL" to capture it. You then use it to attack the Confederate army on Tarsonis. It also comes with a Yamato cannon that says PEWPEWPEW when you shoot it. Better grind for Goblin Rocket Fuel, though.
Ow...my head hurts... - oldmandennis - 05-10-2006
MongoJerry,May 10 2006, 01:22 PM Wrote:*Shrug* From someone who never played the Warcraft series, the new histories sounded pretty cool.
I played everything blizzard made except WC2X - and I have tried a couple of times to find a copy of that which will play on a modern machine.
Right now, I'm just in shock that they are going to get up front of thousands of people and sell them a hack job of this magnitude. If you are going to change the very start of your lore, the event nearly all conflict in your universe starts with to justify a plot twist... have it make a shread of sense. Why would an ancient race of shaman/sorcerers/priests, with access to dimensional ships and powerful extradimensional ships be so sad, and have the crap kicked out of them by the orcs, and allow their planet to be destroyed without even attempting to influence events?
WC3 had an excellent storyline, as far as games go. Arrogence, pride, mystery, corruption, betrayal, heroism, redemption, and a nice big cliffhanger to set up WoW. As far as I know, there are no glaring holes in its plot.
WC1 and WC2, I kindof give a pass to. I'm pretty sure they were made before Bliz was big enough to have somebody on the WC story full time. They also had an odd structure for telling a story, where when you play from each side, the same events turn out differently. WC3 was different, where you played the racial campaigns sequentially. In the expansion, for example, the NE campaign tries to track down Illidan as he attempts to gather artifacts to destroy Ner'zul. His aborted attempt is what forms the forsaken. Then you follow Illidan as he establishes himself as the lord of outland in the human(really bloodelf/naga/draenai) campaign. The first half of the undead campaign is the Forsaken breaking free, and the last half is Arthas racing to rescue Ner'zul from Illadin.
Not just breaking, but completly destroying the continuity of the story which I have followed for over a decade feels like it is turning the game into a purple hunt. It feels like there is no limit to how they will change the story now. It makes me think there will never be any kind of explanation for Balnazzar's survival (he was killed in WC3X). Maybe the human flying mount in the outlands will be black dragons - why not you could just go back and change the story to make it fit. Why follow the story or care, it's just going to be changed.
Quote:I'd be interested in reading your comments down in the shaman talents thread. Rereading your comments there, I don't see any criticisms of this calibre, so perhaps you can elaborate there.
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<emo>
It's not that the shaman review is game breaking. It's just that I have this cherished illusion that a little bit north of me, there are a few hundred really smart people who really get games. If they screw up every now and again, it's because makeing a thing of this complexity is Hard. This illusion has taken several hits - 1.9 being a patch nightmare despite being a pretty minor patch, C'thun not having a trick to him, just being untuned, etc.. Two hits in a week are making me go "Why have I pretty much stopped playing other games, and am scheduling a portion of my life around a game if a sizable portion of the company apparently doesn't care what they are putting out?"
</emo>
Ow...my head hurts... - Raelynn - 05-10-2006
Lissa,May 10 2006, 06:19 PM Wrote:The real problem is though Mongo...the old lore is in game right now. Go into the Library of Scarlet Monastery sometime and look for some of the books. Look specifically for books that talk about the titans and burning crusade (their titles will mention this) and read through them. The lore present in game is being contradicted by this drivel that Blizzard is using to make the Draeni what they are.I'm personally of the opinion that anything in game cannot be used to explain things in the game. As it is, those books are "written" by the characters in the game, and as such they are not the full information. If you found a book in the Scarlet Monestary writing about how the Scarlet Crusade was a perfect group, you wouldn't believe it, but it's true in the setting of the game, because of who wrote it.
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This comes out somewhat when you look about the history of the Tauren and the Trolls and the Elves. Each side puts their own personal slant into things, and some of the facts in each of those books likely contradicts the facts in one of the other books.
It's sort of like looking at a history of the Civil War from a book written by a Union officer compared to a Confederate soldier. Both of the books may be factual in the setting in which they were written, but they will have very different sounds and "facts".
Ow...my head hurts... - Lissa - 05-10-2006
Raelynn,May 10 2006, 04:17 PM Wrote:I'm personally of the opinion that anything in game cannot be used to explain things in the game. As it is, those books are "written" by the characters in the game, and as such they are not the full information. If you found a book in the Scarlet Monestary writing about how the Scarlet Crusade was a perfect group, you wouldn't believe it, but it's true in the setting of the game, because of who wrote it.
This comes out somewhat when you look about the history of the Tauren and the Trolls and the Elves. Each side puts their own personal slant into things, and some of the facts in each of those books likely contradicts the facts in one of the other books.
It's sort of like looking at a history of the Civil War from a book written by a Union officer compared to a Confederate soldier. Both of the books may be factual in the setting in which they were written, but they will have very different sounds and "facts".
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I used the SM Library as a quick location to find these books. These books can be found in other places around the world and match those that are found there in SM Library. Also, those books are written with what has happened in the past Warcraft RTS games and what information has been released in novels and the like.
Ow...my head hurts... - lemekim - 05-11-2006
Blizzard was always famous for their engrossing and intricate storylines. It was always part of the appeal of their games, and made the games more fun to play - you always wanted to see what plot twist was coming next. But when the storyline is completely changed without any explanation, it ruins that immersion and takes away the part of fun that comes from the good story.
Yea, not all people really care that much about the Storyline, and WoW is not really so much about storyline anymore, as it is about Purples... But it's pretty upsetting that Blizzard decided to ruin the Storyline just so that people could play a "cool" race. Hell, the worst part probably is that any one of us here could have come up with a better background story than that crap we were just fed, and it would fit into the storyline.
Ow...my head hurts... - Warlock - 05-11-2006
Iâd put this at about Retcon 3 - a significant change that does not invalidate the main plot. Why they chose this explanation for the race rather than one that fitted with prior background (I agree that other explantions for the ame race would be easy to come up with) I have no idea, but it doesnât grate on me in the way that Han shooting second does.
I imagine the dimensional ship is a seed planted for use in future expansions. If level 60 characters can kill an old god once a week, what on Azeroth will challenge level 100âs?
Ow...my head hurts... - Raelynn - 05-11-2006
Lissa,May 10 2006, 07:34 PM Wrote:I used the SM Library as a quick location to find these books. These books can be found in other places around the world and match those that are found there in SM Library. Also, those books are written with what has happened in the past Warcraft RTS games and what information has been released in novels and the like.The idea has nothing to do with SM, besides to give the example. The books in the game may contain the information in some form, but the game's writers may have added the "slant" of the supposed author. I have read a book in game claiming that the trolls came before the elves, and a book in the game claiming that the elves came before the trolls (I think...this was a while back). I believe each book was in an area of the race that supposedly came first.
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All Im trying to say is that the writers for the game could've written the in-game info with this idea of an author's slant in mind, putting down what could be called fact, but is biased by the fictional author. Stuff that is written in a real life novel or an RPG book doesn't follow this because there is no fictional author of the information, so there is no "bias".
In other words, the information in the real world isn't how someone is seeing the facts, it is the facts, while the books in game could have been written to be someone take on an event, and as such may not be the entire truth.