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Technical details on spell downranking - vor_lord - 10-24-2006
Information taken from:
http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/38173821.htm
Quote:In the Burning Crusade, weâve decided to make a fundamental change to the way spells calculate the bonus they receive from +healing and +spell damage effects and items. This is because we have seen a growing trend in using âdownrankingâ and large amounts of +healing items, which we feel negatively impacts game balance. Downranking involves high-level players using lower level spell ranks and +healing gear to conserve mana, but maintain a high rate of healing done. Through this method, it has become possible in the live game for healing characters to heal large amounts of damage indefinitely without running out of mana. To maintain progression of use through spell ranks, we are changing how lower ranked spells relate to characters of higher level.
Spells will now receive a smaller bonus from +healing and +spell damage based on a comparison of the level at which the spell was learned and the casterâs current level. Take the Priest spell Heal 2 as an example:
The spell is learned at level 22, and the base points for healing on the spell keep increasing until level 27. So, level 27 is considered the spellâs max level in our calculation.
This system gives an additional 6 levels of slack before applying any penalty to casting Heal 2; so, players up to level 33 can cast it with no penalty.
In this example, we will use level 34 (one level past the cast level of the spell) as a starting point.
The bonus from +healing is multiplied by this ratio:
((spell level)+6)/(player level)
That means the level 34 player only gets 97% of the normal bonus from +healing items when casting Heal 2. A level 60 player would only get 55% of the bonus, while a level 70 would get 47%.
The exact same system will also apply to damage spells. However, as healing classes tend to use downranking more often than others, healers are likely to see more effect from this change than other classes. As a general rule, players will be able to use the top 2 or 3 ranks of each spell before receiving any penalty. All of the existing ratios for the +healing and +spell damage bonuses on spells are also still in effect; so spells with a short casting time will continue to receive a smaller bonus than spells with a longer casting time. Spells learned below level 20 will still receive substantially smaller bonuses.
I'm not sure I am correctly getting the max spell level, but here's my cut at it for a level 60 player:
Code:
Spell Learned at Max spell lvl Bonus
Heal 1 16 21 0.45
Heal 2 22 27 0.55
Heal 3 28 33 0.65
Heal 4 34 39 0.75
GH 1 40 45 0.85
GH 2 46 51 0.95Technical details on spell downranking - Warlock - 10-26-2006
Seems an odd system - with a given spell and gear gaining levels makes the spell weaker. I don't think anything else works this way (crit rating, armour and so forth lose power with opponent level, not caster level). I'm certainly going to need to adapt - gone is the steady stream of HT4's.
Do you know whether the "empowered" talents are modified by spell rank? If they are a flat % of +heal regardless of spell rank then healing builds can mitigate this change to some extent.
Technical details on spell downranking - lfd - 10-26-2006
Quote:I don't think anything else works this way (crit rating, armour and so forth lose power with opponent level, not caster level). I'm certainly going to need to adapt - gone is the steady stream of HT4's.
I was under the impression that crit rating was going to get weaker with your level, too, in that you would need more of it to achieve +1% crit at level n+1 than you do at level n.
And yes, this change seems squarely aimed at those of us who deliberately used more efficient heals to conserve mana; it might've been ridiculous with paladins and druids, but from my priest fence over here, it was sensible to cast e.g. Heal 2, Greater Heal 2 rather than spam higher ranks or flash heal all the time, and I could still easily go out of mana. And to be honest it feels like yet another of Blizzard's "Hey, you're using your initiative rather than playing your character how we demand you play it" toy-throwing feet-stamping exercises. You'd think they'd learn from Diablo 2.
I guess they expect us to stack HoTs instead, now, or that we're going to have so much mana and the ability to drop down one rank relatively unaffected that it won't matter that they're now admitting that in their view they broke both skills and itemisation of healing classes badly.
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-26-2006
Quote:I was under the impression that crit rating was going to get weaker with your level, too, in that you would need more of it to achieve +1% crit at level n+1 than you do at level n.
Correct.
Quote:And yes, this change seems squarely aimed at those of us who deliberately used more efficient heals to conserve mana
The way things are currently, people with 500-1000 in healing can downrank far enough that no reasonable amount of damage can scare them. They can chain cast for days without going OOM. Mana management should be part of healing. And it is going to scale insanely in the expansion if they don't do anything about it.
Technical details on spell downranking - Concillian - 10-26-2006
Quote:And to be honest it feels like yet another of Blizzard's "Hey, you're using your initiative rather than playing your character how we demand you play it" toy-throwing feet-stamping exercises. You'd think they'd learn from Diablo 2.
If that was the case they would have changed the mechanics in the live game long ago. They are making the change at a time when they add other mechanics to compensate for the removal of this one, which seems to me more of a case where they wanted to remove it but didn't want to castrate healers at the same time or make current encounters impossible (like when they changed aggro mechanics and broke C'thun).
Technical details on spell downranking - Kevin - 10-26-2006
And really I don't think the impact is as bad as people are making it out to be.
If you have +800 healing right now and spiritual healing.
L60 right now. Rank 4 heal should be:
(758 * 1.1) + (800 * .85) = 1513 average heal.
L60 in TBC it should look like:
(758 + (800 * .85 * .75) ) * 1.1 = 1395 average heal
yes with the exception of druids that are broken your talents are now applied AFTER +healing effects as well.
Yep, it's a drop off. But it's not a doom and gloom I'll never be able to use that rank of heal again. I'll assume improved healing for a 15% mana redcution on the spell cost still.
So heal rank 4 base of 305 mana drops to 259 mana.
So old method you got 1513 / 259 = 5.84 HP/MP
New method you get 1395 / 259 = 5.39 HP/MP
Not really the OMG I can't down rank at all situation.
Considering you downrank I see 3 main reasons to do it:
1) Mana conservation. Since lower ranks that take the same cast time still get a big benefit from your +heal gear you can still throw out a good size heal for very little mana.
2) Cast time. A druid can cast healing touch rank 4 in 2.5 seconds (with talents) vs 3 seconds for Healing Touch rank 5 or higher.
3) Just topping off and not wanting to overheal. If someone is only down 1500 HP you don't need to cast a spell that will heal them for 1800. This is essentailly mana conservation though. But it is somehting to consider.
2 and 3 aren't really changed that much by this. I'll still down rank if the person needs healing but I would over heal with another rank. I'll likely still down rank for speed if there isn't a better option.
Also note that while this is a nerf to healing, it's also an effective buff to those who have the +healing talents as well since they won't be hurt as much by it it.
Without the +healing talent it changes the heal from 1438 avg (now) to 1268 avg (after change). 170 difference vs the 118 difference that the healer with the + healing talents had.
There is more too it, but downranking will still be useful, you'll still likely get full benefit from +heal for 3 or 4 ranks of the spell anyway. You'll still get enough benefit to make some of the lower ranks desirable. But if you consider it's a relative buff for heal spec toons, and that there looks to be more stam so you'll likely be dealing with bigger HP pools and having needs for some of the higher rank heals (fewer healers in smaller groups so you can't figure 3 other smaller heals are coming in on your tank) I don't see it as that big of a deal.
Technical details on spell downranking - Icebird - 10-26-2006
I read some interesting comments on the EJ forums from someone playing a priest on closed Beta.
Because of the significantly larger health pools that players now have, he found himself using his highest rank Greater Heal as his bread-and-butter healing spell. When even squishies have 6K or 7K health, lower rank spells simply didn't heal enough.
Chris
Technical details on spell downranking - Zarathustra - 10-27-2006
I wonder if they'll be taking another look at the encounters currently ingame, then? There's no way their QA team used only top-rank spells when in the testing phases of Ahn'Qiraj and Naxxramas.
I half expect this change to hit, and then complaints to roll in on the R&D forums saying X, Y, and Z encounters are nearly impossible now.
Technical details on spell downranking - lfd - 10-27-2006
Quote:The way things are currently, people with 500-1000 in healing can downrank far enough that no reasonable amount of damage can scare them. They can chain cast for days without going OOM.
Not people. Paladins, whose talents let them spam their already more-efficient heals. I find it funny you should say:
Quote:Mana management should be part of healing
because that's _exactly_ why I use lower-rank heals (mostly Heal 2 and GH2) on my priest:) I just hope mana pools scale appropriately for the size of the hitpoint pools we'll be healing; some downranking will be possible (and HoTs stacking will obviously help), but for the raid bosses we'll have higher hitpoints on our tanks to be healed by fewer healers.
Technical details on spell downranking - Tsunami - 10-27-2006
I think the impact of these changes is hard to guess because of all the other things that get changed. If it weren't for the larger health pools, I'd say that I will STILL use more lower ranked healing spells than anything else. But if the squishies have like 7k health, a Heal for 1.5k isn't what it used to be.
Maybe I can conserve some bar space now that my setup of Renew 7/10, Heal 2/4, GHeal 2/5, Fheal 7/9 seems to be obsolete.:)
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-27-2006
Quote:I wonder if they'll be taking another look at the encounters currently ingame, then? There's no way their QA team used only top-rank spells when in the testing phases of Ahn'Qiraj and Naxxramas.
I half expect this change to hit, and then complaints to roll in on the R&D forums saying X, Y, and Z encounters are nearly impossible now.
This is pretty possible. It depends on if they release the patch before Christmas, or 2 weeks before the expansion goes live. The more I think about it, the more I think it will be close to when the Xpac is released. Trying to balance all the new talents against current content will be really tough I think. Especially since alot of the talents were designed with the new spells in mind.
Quote:Not people. Paladins, whose talents let them spam their already more-efficient heals.
because that's _exactly_ why I use lower-rank heals (mostly Heal 2 and GH2) on my priest:) I just hope mana pools scale appropriately for the size of the hitpoint pools we'll be healing.
I can go for a very long time with HW6(about 1k healed), and my gear is not super hot. With 3 piece transcendence and JOW, I'm not sure why you go OOM.
The bigger point is this will get even worse in the expansion. Assuming a priest goes from about 1k healing now to 2k in the expansion. Right now, it looks to me like heal2 has a 56% HPM advantage. But if you bump the +healing up to 2k, heal2 gets DOUBLE the HPM as GH5.
As far as manapools scaling, the eventual goal needs to be for the game to be balanced around all mechanics and abilities. Don't forget you should be getting a few mana springs/tides by the time you get to the end game.
Technical details on spell downranking - lfd - 10-28-2006
Quote:With 3 piece transcendence and JOW, I'm not sure why you go OOM.
Because I'm horde. ;-) High rank flash heal spamming is still an excellent way to go out of mana during a fight of any reasonable length, even with meditation and 3 piece trans (which is so useful a set bonus that I'm not looking forward to giving it up for faith's bonuses; fortunately I don't have to worry about that for a while). Healing Touch is not a good example spell to use; in much the same way as druids don't usually go around spamming top-rank healing touch, priests don't usually go around high-rank greater heal.
No, mana tide and mana spring are nowhere near as good as JoW. But let's not start off down that route ;-) each side will find out soon enough.
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-28-2006
Quote:Because I'm horde. ;-)
Me too
<-- points at profile information.
Well, often you get mana spring/mana tide, which is a pretty good substitute for BOW. Its the damage casters where the allies have an advantage.
Quote:High rank flash heal spamming is still an excellent way to go out of mana during a fight of any reasonable length
But I said spaming heal2 shouldn't ever put you OOM with mid BWL gear.
Quote: Healing Touch is not a good example spell to use; in much the same way as druids don't usually go around spamming top-rank healing touch
I said healing wave, the shaman spell. Rank 6 hits for 1.1kish in my healpower type gear, and more or less I don't go OOM. If its an 8/8 EF fight, I lose some healing power, but can scale up to rank 8 hitting for about 1.5k and really not go out of mana. I believe CW is that HT4 is the sweetspot for druids. Top rank healing touch is also not 6, more like 10.
Quote:No, mana tide and mana spring are nowhere near as good as JoW. But let's not start off down that route ;-) each side will find out soon enough.
Misspoke when I said JOW anyways, meant BOW.
Back to the subject at hand, I think differentiating the spells is better. The way downranking was getting out of hand (and stupidly out of hand in the Xpac), with low rank long spells getting silly good HPM such that they were the proper choice 95% of the time is a bad thing. I think having 4 heal buttons is enough. I don't need a bunch of low ranks to feel like I have choices in healing.
Technical details on spell downranking - Zarathustra - 10-28-2006
Quote:This is pretty possible. It depends on if they release the patch before Christmas, or 2 weeks before the expansion goes live. The more I think about it, the more I think it will be close to when the Xpac is released. Trying to balance all the new talents against current content will be really tough I think. Especially since alot of the talents were designed with the new spells in mind.
The problem is they stand to severely change the difficulty curve of the game if they plan on those larger health pools, since no one pre-expansion is going to have the benefit of that. Long fights like the Emps are going to see an increase in difficulty with the new system, and people attempting them will not have twice the stamina they currently do.
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-29-2006
It's a good point in general. Some fights will be made much much easier by the new talents, some will be made much much harder.
I don't think the twin emps will be that big of a deal, as its not a fight that's that hard on healer mana... if you have two soul linked warlock tanks. Warlock tanks are probably how the fight was intended to be done.
I do think that stacking HOTs (and don't they get an efficiency boost under the new rules?) will make up for alot of the problems.
Technical details on spell downranking - Brista - 10-30-2006
Quote:The problem is they stand to severely change the difficulty curve of the game if they plan on those larger health pools, since no one pre-expansion is going to have the benefit of that. Long fights like the Emps are going to see an increase in difficulty with the new system, and people attempting them will not have twice the stamina they currently do.
I think if you're talking about the brief window in December - January where we will have 40 man level 60 end game instances and the BC game mechanics and talent trees then you need have no fear of the downranking nerf making these fights too hard
Raids are going to be exponentially more powerful. 51 point Protection Warriors will hold aggro better and mitigate more damage while 51 point Resto shamans and druids will heal them better. Fights will be ended sooner too - I mean have you seen the new Mage Fire tree?
Even a full Resto spec like me can drop talents that help very marginal skills like Tranquility and pick ones that will boost all my healing
I won't go so far as to say end game content will be trivialised but it will certainly become much easier for those who spec for raiding. It's almost a Christmas present:- there ya go, for all those who woulda missed it have a gallop through the end game on the house!
In the longer term I just don't see how you can feel a game mechanic which effects everyone makes the game too hard. They adjust the difficulty to suit the players. New content is generally released hard enough that only the fanatical can conquer it then nerfed to broaden its accessibility.
Remember too that the cost of these downranked spells is static while the items that support them will inflate. Currently most raid healers can't cast their downrank spell infinitely. In the Expansion with some care over gear selection and spec most raid healers will be able to cast their downrank spell infinitely. It's unlikely that there will be major boss fights relying on doing steady damage for a long time simply because it won't be a challenge. There's a lot more mana per 5 seconds gear and talents in the Expansion
I have to say the change feels about right. I always saw it as flawed game mechanics that lower level spells were better than high level spells. If a can of beer costs a dollar but you can get six for 10 dollars how many six packs would sell? It's just backwards
With the new system there's a more strategic choice between a lower rank spell which risks less overheal and a higher rank spell which while more efficient is a bigger mana sink if other healers land their heal first. It seems to me there is more strategy in this than in the current system of Healing Touch Rank 4 is always correct unless it's not enough to keep the tank up
Technical details on spell downranking - lfd - 10-30-2006
Quote:I think if you're talking about the brief window in December - January where we will have 40 man level 60 end game instances and the BC game mechanics and talent trees then you need have no fear of the downranking nerf making these fights too hard
We're not all going to be launching into level 70 raiding the day the expansion comes out; and if these fights aren't at least looked at to see if they need rebalancing for a group of level 60s (or whatever level they decide to rebalance them for), then it's a terrific waste of content because nobody will run them at all, or will wait until they are vastly overlevelled.
I've no doubt that with the shift in the endgame that MC, BWL, AQ40 and - eventually - Naxxramas will not be run at all, it would be a bit daft to leave them undoable at the level for which they were intended. Content completionists would still like to see these bosses dead before they become too trivial.
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-30-2006
Quote:We're not all going to be launching into level 70 raiding the day the expansion comes out; and if these fights aren't at least looked at to see if they need rebalancing for a group of level 60s (or whatever level they decide to rebalance them for), then it's a terrific waste of content because nobody will run them at all, or will wait until they are vastly overlevelled.
I've no doubt that with the shift in the endgame that MC, BWL, AQ40 and - eventually - Naxxramas will not be run at all, it would be a bit daft to leave them undoable at the level for which they were intended. Content completionists would still like to see these bosses dead before they become too trivial.
I really doubt the 40mans will see much action. Are you really going to find 60 people who don't want to level, just so they can "do it right"? I'm sure there are a few out there, but gathering enough of them in one place for months of wipes doesn't seem like its terribly likely.
I can see guilds of level 70 characters pushing their new shammys and pallys through AQ40, if that gear holds up as decent leveling gear for 6-7 levels.
Technical details on spell downranking - lfd - 10-31-2006
Quote:Are you really going to find 60 people who don't want to level, just so they can "do it right"?
You're asking that question on the Lurker Lounge? And why 60 people? That content will be the only thing the people without the expansion will be able to do (and yes, I expect Blizzard to effectively force people to upgrade eventually, especially if they keep to their 'one expansion per year' plan).
People in my guild would rather clear Naxx before we've all overlevelled ridiculously, as otherwise it feels somewhat cheating.
Technical details on spell downranking - oldmandennis - 10-31-2006
Quote:You're asking that question on the Lurker Lounge? And why 60 people?
People in my guild would rather clear Naxx before we've all overlevelled ridiculously, as otherwise it feels somewhat cheating.
Oh, I don't doubt that there are more then a couple completionists around here. I just really doubt that that you can find an entire, multiday per week, farming tons of pots, gutting it out through the wipes group of 40-60 people who will not level their mains.
Even one level will eliminate a huge number of problems. 5 free weapon skill (especially for hybrids on Lotheb), taunt resists on the horsemen going down, increased resists of mob spells - you would still have to know the strats, but executing them would get a lot easier.