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The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-24-2006
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061124/ap_on_...d_spy&printer=1
Poisoned spy blames Putin for his death By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
29 minutes ago
A former KGB agent turned Kremlin critic who blamed a "barbaric and ruthless" Russian President Vladimir Putin for his fatal poisoning had a toxic radioactive substance in his body, the British government said Friday.
In the statement dictated from his deathbed, Alexander Litvinenko accused the Russian leader of having "no respect for life, liberty or any civilized value." In his first public remarks on the allegations, Putin said he deplored the former spy's death but called the statement a political provocation.
The Health Protection Agency said the radioactive element polonium-210, which is extremely hard to detect, had been found in Litvinenko's urine.
Polonium-210 occurs naturally and is present in the environment at very low concentrations, but can represent a radiation hazard if ingested.
"Only a very, very small amount of polonium would need to be ingested to be fatal, but that depends on how pure the polonium is," said Dr. Mike Keir, a radiation protection adviser at the Royal Victoria Infirmary.
The agency's chief executive, Pat Troop, said that the high level indicated Litvinenko "would either have to have eaten it, inhaled it or taken it in through a wound."
"We know he had a major dose," she said.
Earlier, Home Secretary John Reid said Litvinenko's death Thursday night was "linked to the presence of a radioactive substance in his body."
Litvinenko, a vociferous critic of the Russian government, suffered heart failure late Thursday after days in intensive care at London's University College Hospital battling a poison that had attacked his bone marrow and destroyed his immune system.
"You may succeed in silencing me but that silence comes at a price. You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed," Litvinenko said in the statement read by his friend and spokesman Alex Goldfarb. The former spy said "the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr. Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life."
Goldfarb said Litvinenko had dictated the statement before he lost consciousness on Tuesday, and signed it in the presence of his wife, Marina.
Litvinenko's father, Walter, said his son "fought this regime and this regime got him."
"It was an excruciating death and he was taking it as a real man," Walter Litvinenko said.
The Russian government has strongly denied involvement, and Putin told reporters at a European Union summit Friday in Helsinki, Finland, that British medical documents did not show "that it was a result of violence, this is not a violent death, so there is no ground for speculations of this kind."
Putin extended his condolences to Litvinenko's family.
"A death of a man is always a tragedy and I deplore this," Putin said.
Putin said the fact that Litvinenko's statement was released only after his death showed it was a "provocation."
"It's extremely regrettable that such a tragic event as death is being used for political provocations," he said.
"I think our British colleagues realize the measure of their responsibility for security of citizens living on their territory, including Russian citizens, no matter what their political views are. I hope that they won't help fan political scandals which have no grounds."
Putin said Russia "will offer all necessary help to the investigation."
Litvinenko told police that he believed he had been poisoned on Nov. 1, while investigating the slaying of crusading journalist Anna Politkovskaya. His hair fell out, his throat became swollen, and his immune and nervous systems were severely damaged.
He was transferred from a north London hospital to University College Hospital on Nov. 17 when his condition deteriorated.
Doctors treating him acknowledged they could not explain his rapid decline. They discounted earlier theories that the 43-year-old father of three had been poisoned with the toxic metal thallium and cast doubt on an alternative diagnosis of a radioactive substance.
The hospital said Friday it could not comment further because the case was being investigated by police. London's Metropolitan Police said it was treating the case as an "unexplained death" â but not, yet, a murder.
Litvinenko's friends had little doubt about who was to blame.
They said Litvinenko, who sought asylum in Britain in 2000, had been on a quest to uncover corruption in Russia's Federal Security Service, or FSB, and unmask the killers of Politkovskaya, another trenchant critic of Putin's government.
Goldfarb said the attack on Litvinenko bore "all the hallmarks of a very professional, sophisticated and specialist operation."
"The very fact that experts are still at a loss to say what poisoned him tells you it is not a sleeping pill that has been given to him," he said.
Another friend, Andrei Nekrasov, said Litvinenko had told him: "The bastards got me, but they won't get everybody."
He said Litvinenko believed he had been targeted by the Kremlin because he had threatened to uncover embarrassing facts.
"The only logic is revenge, they consider him an enemy â every week he was in Putin's face, he was a tireless critic of Putin's regime ... He had a mission to uncover what he felt were crimes his former colleagues had committed," Nekrasov said.
Litvinenko worked for the KGB and its successor, the FSB. In 1998, he publicly accused his superiors of ordering him to kill tycoon Boris Berezovsky and spent nine months in jail from 1999 on charges of abuse of office. He was later acquitted and in 2000 sought asylum in Britain, where Berezovsky is now also living in exile.
On the day he first felt ill, Litvinenko said he had two meetings, the first with an unnamed Russian and Andrei Lugovoy, an-KGB colleague and bodyguard to former Russian Prime Minster Yegor Gaidar.
Later, he dined with Italian security expert Mario Scaramella to discuss the October murder of Politkovskaya.
Scaramella said he showed Litvinenko an e-mail he received from a source naming Politkovskaya's killers, and naming other targets including Litvinenko and himself.
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I suppose it could have been Bush.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - kandrathe - 11-24-2006
Quote:...I suppose it could have been Bush.I'm confused. You think Bush would do it, or be the target? Either is as unlikely.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Rhydderch Hael - 11-24-2006
Maybe O.J. Simpson will write a book on a "hypothetical" scenario of how he'd have done it.
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-27-2006
Quote:I'm confused. You think Bush would do it, or be the target? Either is as unlikely.
Umm, you're kidding, right?
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - ima_nerd - 11-28-2006
Quote:Umm, you're kidding, right?
-A
Why would Bush have any motivation to kill an ex-Russian spy who is now a critic of Putin? Really, unless you have some serious theoretical motives for why he would, random hating on Bush is getting old.
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-28-2006
Quote:Why would Bush have any motivation to kill an ex-Russian spy who is now a critic of Putin? Really, unless you have some serious theoretical motives for why he would, random hating on Bush is getting old.
That was a dig at liberals blaming Bush for everything. It was a joke. Humor. Sarcasm. Oh well....
*Sigh*
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Occhidiangela - 11-28-2006
Quote:That was a dig at liberals blaming Bush for everything. It was a joke. Humor. Sarcasm. Oh well....Rough crowd. ;)
*Sigh*
-A
*messes with tie*
Occhi
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-28-2006
Quote:Rough crowd. ;)
*messes with tie*
Occhi
Tell me *you* knew I was kidding... please, Rodney.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Occhidiangela - 11-29-2006
Quote:Tell me *you* knew I was kidding... please, Rodney.Yes, I did, thanks to my long habit of reading your posts. :)
-A
Occhi
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-29-2006
Quote:Yes, I did, thanks to my long habit of reading your posts. :)
Occhi
Good. At least that's one person who gets my posts ;)
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - roguebanshee - 11-29-2006
Quote:Good. At least that's one person who gets my posts ;)You mean you're not sure you whether get your own posts or not?:P
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-29-2006
Quote:You mean you're not sure you whether get your own posts or not?:P
No, I'm not. Not always.
You think that's a problem?
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - ima_nerd - 11-30-2006
Quote:That was a dig at liberals blaming Bush for everything. It was a joke. Humor. Sarcasm. Oh well....
*Sigh*
-A
Sorry, the thread title conveyed a sense of conspiracy-theorist-paranoia. I wasn't prepared for sarcasm and took your statement literally. Apologies:)
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-30-2006
Quote:Sorry, the thread title conveyed a sense of conspiracy-theorist-paranoia. I wasn't prepared for sarcasm and took your statement literally. Apologies:)
No need to apoligize. However, you should take the statement literally, just not the part about Bush.
Russia is considered a Democracy by the West now. The West is wrong.
Here's another story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061130/ap_on_...aidar&printer=1
Doctors treating former Russian Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar, who fell ill in Ireland last week, believe he was poisoned, an aide said Thursday.
"Doctors don't see a natural reason for the poisoning and they have not been able to detect any natural substance known to them" in Gaidar's body, spokesman Valery Natarov said. "So obviously we're talking about poisoning (and) it was not natural poisoning."
Gaidar, 50, was feeling better Thursday, Natarov said.
"His condition is stable and improving. Doctors say there is no threat to his life at the moment," the aide said.
Gaidar, one of the leaders of a liberal opposition party who served briefly as prime minister in the 1990s under President Boris Yeltsin, began vomiting and fainted during a conference in Ireland on Nov. 29, and was rushed to a hospital's intensive care unit.
Gaidar's illness follows the poisoning of former KGB spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died in London just one day before Gaidar fell ill.
Andrei Lugovoy, another former KGB spy who met with Litvinenko on the day he fell ill, served as Gaidar's bodyguard at one point.
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I feel Mr. Putin's heavy hand in all this. You can take the boy out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the boy.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Occhidiangela - 11-30-2006
Quote:I feel Mr. Putin's heavy hand in all this. You can take the boy out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the boy.While leopards rarely change their spots, there is the possibility that Mr Putin is being framed? Or, others are doing the wet work, for their own reasons, and the odds that he gets the blame is to their benefit?
-A
FWIW, on Putin being set up . . .
Grain of salt, of course, given Pat's tendency to rant lately.
Occhi
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-30-2006
Quote:While leopards rarely change their spots, there is the possibility that Mr Putin is being framed? Or, others are doing the wet work, for their own reasons, and the odds that he gets the blame is to their benefit?
FWIW, on Putin being set up . . .
Grain of salt, of course, given Pat's tendency to rant lately.
Occhi
Meh. Putin can pretty much do whatever he wants to his former people. You know why? Because he can and while there will be some questions raised, nothing will ever come of it. In several weeks, even the more informed masses will forget, and most masses are not even informed. This has been the Modus Operandi of all of the communist leaders from the beginning. They know that while unhappy, the West will just want to not make waves.
Hell, they've stolen US bombers that were forced to land during WW2 and nothing happened.
They invaded whole countries and nothing happened. Hungary, Chechoslovakia come to mind right off the bat.
They've cheated on every arms treaty ever signed and nothing happened. SALT treaty comes to mind. Yeh, limit the number of ICBM silos mutually. Great idea. Except they designed their ICBMs to launch from a special launcher that did not destroy the silo, so they could be reusable, heh.
100% of their diplomats were officers of either the KGB or the GRU and were wither spies or were helping spies. Once in the last 60 years, Great Britain threw out over 100 russian diplomats in one shot. That's it. Noone else... ever.
As some russian said before the Chech invasion... Yeh, they will be mad as hell. Their diplomats will accuse. They will even throw rocks at our embassy. And you know what? They will calm down, clean up and even pay for the repairs with their own money.
This is nothing and really, nobody cares. Too bad that the guys's death is for nothing.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Lissa - 11-30-2006
Quote:While leopards rarely change their spots, there is the possibility that Mr Putin is being framed? Or, others are doing the wet work, for their own reasons, and the odds that he gets the blame is to their benefit?
FWIW, on Putin being set up . . .
Grain of salt, of course, given Pat's tendency to rant lately.
Occhi
While I don't usually agree with Pat, he makes a lot of good points here. Putin has everything to lose by being behind this and someone that wants the old Soviet Union back has everything to gain by pointing the finger at Putin and his government. It's just like I pointed out concerning the reactor complex that Russia is building for Iran, why give the Iranians the bomb for a little bit of money now when they're sitting on a vast fortune. While Putin may be petty, the man is definitely not stupid.
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Rhydderch Hael - 11-30-2006
Quote:...Hell, they've stolen US bombers that were forced to land during WW2 and nothing happened. ...Internment of military personell and equipment by a neutral power is nothing new. Prevents the appearance they are taking one side or another in a conflict. And while the USSR was an active belligerent against Nazi Germany, it was officially neutral in regards of the conflict between the US and Japan until the very last month of the war.
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Ashock - 11-30-2006
Quote:Internment of military personell and equipment by a neutral power is nothing new. Prevents the appearance they are taking one side or another in a conflict. And while the USSR was an active belligerent against Nazi Germany, it was officially neutral in regards of the conflict between the US and Japan until the very last month of the war.
Thanks for that info, that I did not know... yeh. Guess when the russkies got a hold of the B-29? Oh and btw, it's not that they held it for a while, no. They never gave it back, period.... and the several bombers after that one. Their new long range bomber was an exact copy of the B-29, btw... down to the accidental tiny hole on the wing and even the way it was painted from the inside. Anyway, you know what Stalin said when talking to the other thugs... err.. members of the Politburo when they were discussing the repercussions of this act? He said "You gotta treat your war allies the way you treat a woman. The more you beat them up, the more they love you."
Putin is definately a very smart guy. This is why he knows he can get away with this crap.
-A
The more things change, the more they stay the same - Rhydderch Hael - 11-30-2006
Quote:Thanks for that info, that I did not know... yeh. Guess when the russkies got a hold of the B-29? Oh and btw, it's not that they held it for a while, no. They never gave it back, period....Soviets acquired the downed B-29s in 1944, when the USSR wast still a neutral. Superforts were flying through the CBI theater long before the Navy captured Pacific islands close enough for overwater attacks.
The Portuguese and the Swiss didn't give birds back, either (because they repainted and used the machines themselves).