+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Lurker Games (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: World of Warcraft (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-16.html)
+--- Thread: Game-Changing New Powers (/thread-3438.html)
Game-Changing New Powers - Watto44 - 02-05-2007
Quote:I was just re-reading this and it popped in my head, "isn't that exactly what polymorph is?"Artega already said it, but yeah, I meant that sheep is retricted to specific mob types. (As are sap, banish, and mind control for that matter.) GG's point about hunter traps is a good one though. I've never played a hunter, so I don't know the draw backs that well and can't really comment, but I've seen a lot of hunters struggle to keep mobs trapped effectively. Whether that was due to the ability itself or the carelessness of our group I don't know.
I do understand, though...Mages are a heck of a lot more squishy than Druids.
Quote:Speaking of squishy, with the level curve being what it is, I'm getting reamed by physical-damage mobs much worse now than I was at 60 relative to my total hit points. Now that I'm running level 70 instances, I figure this is a combination of two things:Yeah, my mage is feeling the hurt as well. I have average HP for my level I guess (5600 at level 64, 5800 for PvP) but some mobs are definately hurting. The sandworm mobs in the Bone Wastes in Terokkar were spitting at me and hitting me in the 900s. What's so frustrating about these mobs is that I have to burn a chunk of mana to keep from dying and then I can't even loot the little buggers! I'm really looking forward to level 68 when I sink that point into Ice Barrier.
1) I don't have enough of the OMFGStamina items featured in TBC. I'm still running in mostly Transcendence gear in healing instances, with two pieces of the Hallowed set (yay purple!) and Faith boots. I have around 6000 hit points buffed up, which is quite low by TBC standards.
2) I've gotten used to the armor levels of ubergear for my level - Tier 2/3 - and now I'm running around in what amounts to a starter dungeon set at level 70. I only mitigate 21% of incoming physical damage even with Inner Fire up, so heaven forbid I forget to have it on. Talk about suicide.
Game-Changing New Powers - Mavfin - 02-05-2007
Quote:What's so frustrating about these mobs is that I have to burn a chunk of mana to keep from dying and then I can't even loot the little buggers! I'm really looking forward to level 68 when I sink that point into Ice Barrier.
Yes you can. Ignore that your cursor doesn't change, and loot them. It works.
Game-Changing New Powers - Mirajj - 02-05-2007
Quote:GG's point about hunter traps is a good one though. I've never played a hunter, so I don't know the draw backs that well and can't really comment, but I've seen a lot of hunters struggle to keep mobs trapped effectively. Whether that was due to the ability itself or the carelessness of our group I don't know.
I'd say a combination of both. I've been doing a lot of multi trapping lately, and the first problem becomes very evident. The trap (if it doesn't break) will last 20 seconds. The skill's cooldown is 30s. So for at least 10s, you are going to have a mob beating on you. With the kind of damage they do, that's going to hurt.
The way to extend this is to set the trap, catch your mob, head off a decent (but not great) distance away so that when the trap breaks, they have to run for you. The distance will also let you retap them a time or two, just in case they are getting interested in the healer. When they are in range, you can Scattershot for 4s to buy yourself a bit more time on the cooldown. But this takes the hunter out of the main fight for a time, too. So it can be an interesting dance, to be sure.
Anohter problem is that if you sneeze on a trapped mob, they are free. And while one would think a big block of ice is easy to see and not target, experience shows that more often than not, someone will break the trap early.
So yeah, multi trapping is a skill that can be quite a bit of fun to work with.
Game-Changing New Powers - Quark - 02-05-2007
Quote:Anohter problem is that if you sneeze on a trapped mob, they are free. And while one would think a big block of ice is easy to see and not target, experience shows that more often than not, someone will break the trap early.
You think that's fun? Try getting a Blind to last its full duration, without it being called pre-pull. My success rate on that is less than 20%.
Game-Changing New Powers - vor_lord - 02-05-2007
Quote:The way to extend this is to set the trap, catch your mob, head off a decent (but not great) distance away so that when the trap breaks, they have to run for you.
Just wanted to add that your cooldown begins resetting when you place the trap, not when it goes off. So when you know what you will be trapping before the pull, if you can set your trap down 10 seconds before you need it, you can get a second trap on w/o worrying about the 30s cooldown.
In 5 mans, in the rare event you really do need that third trap, your pet might be available to offtank the mob for the necessary seconds for the cooldown to reset. It may not.
Hunter trapping is certainly a skill that takes practice. Catch a resist, or have someone break it, and you're in a world of hurt, it isn't like a sheep or a shackle where you can just recast. Of course, it works on a lot of mobs that you can't sheep or shackle too.
Game-Changing New Powers - Artega - 02-05-2007
Quote:You think that's fun? Try getting a Blind to last its full duration, without it being called pre-pull. My success rate on that is less than 20%.
If they don't specifically tell me that they're going to CC it, I'm going to tank it.
Game-Changing New Powers - Tal - 02-05-2007
Quote:You think that's fun? Try getting a Blind to last its full duration, without it being called pre-pull. My success rate on that is less than 20%.
RAHR GOTTA TANK IT ALL!
:)
Game-Changing New Powers - Mavfin - 02-05-2007
Quote:RAHR GOTTA TANK IT ALL!
:)
You mean Thunderclap/Cleave/WW break CC? Damn it all!
Game-Changing New Powers - Tal - 02-06-2007
Quote:You mean Thunderclap/Cleave/WW break CC? Damn it all!
Nah I only DPS tank when I far out gear the instance. I haven't done that since Strat.:)
Game-Changing New Powers - Kevin - 02-06-2007
Quote:Just wanted to add that your cooldown begins resetting when you place the trap, not when it goes off. So when you know what you will be trapping before the pull, if you can set your trap down 10 seconds before you need it, you can get a second trap on w/o worrying about the 30s cooldown.
In 5 mans, in the rare event you really do need that third trap, your pet might be available to offtank the mob for the necessary seconds for the cooldown to reset. It may not.
Hunter trapping is certainly a skill that takes practice. Catch a resist, or have someone break it, and you're in a world of hurt, it isn't like a sheep or a shackle where you can just recast. Of course, it works on a lot of mobs that you can't sheep or shackle too.
Yep, early placement helps a lot. It's why I pretty much always put a trap down regardless of if I'm going to trap or not. If I am trapping I have the cooldown advantage. If not the healer has a place to run to drop a mob (the trap generally goes where I figure the healer will be if I don't expect to be trapping a mob) Place it before you drink or while others are drinking. It will be out of cooldown when the pull happens then and you can put the 2nd trap down immediately after the mob traps. That means the cooldown is now 20s in when the first breaks. And the 3rd trap can be put down and the CD is 10 seconds in when that one breaks, etc. Using a little extra distance (fire an arcane on the FF mob while moving to keep the DPS happening and if you move right you don't even lose auto-shot time) just cuts the time the trap is cooldown even more.
It's not a prefect science by any means but now that it doesn't rely on FD it's even simpler to do (you don't have to reaggro the mob you want to trap every time, you don't have to worry about FD resist). I have a tendency to pull the trap mob with an aimed shot + arcane + distracting + steady (don't usually have distance for more) to put aggro on it and get some damage on it to make it go down faster later. Of course to use aimed I need to know better when the tank is pulling so that I can get the mob trapped faster so I don't always get to, but more damage and aggro on the trap helps. Most warriors/druids are going to break it with a taunt anyway. Besides I can disengage the trapped mob without breaking the trap so if I need to drop some of that aggro and don't want to FD I can.
It's not precise, but I have a lot of practice since I've been multi trapping in instances since I got FD at L30. I've also done it as a survival spec, a beast spec, and a marks spec. Survival has it easiest by far. You have traps that last longer, can remove the resist chance and cut the cooldown. Not to mention you can deterrence tank if you need to (pretty much just as good as evasion tanking) and will likely be able to counterattack and get space as well. Marks have it a bit easier with scatter shot to buy extra time. Beast is actually the trickiest I feel because while the pet is a great offtank the pet may be actively involved in tanking, have warp or dash or charge on cooldown or what not (so you can't get it there quickly) and you cut out even more DPS the longer the pet is not fighting than the other specs do, in addition to the DPS you lose just from maintaining a trap. So you have less escape skills if there is a resist or a sheep wanders into the 2nd trap or an immune mob hits the trap first and makes it go away or whatever.
I also have the advantage of playing with people that are used to traps around me. Since I've been trapping stuff for a long time and played my hunter with many of the same people for a long time they are used to some of the positioning it takes or even just a random trapped mob when I'm doing the pull. That helps. It's like people that are used to playing with mages sheeping a lot. Charge and thunderclap pulls still work just fine because the mages and the warriors know how to time things and how to move stuff to keep the sheep safe in the middle of the chaos.
It's why I'm undecided on if cyclone behavior is intended or not. Hunter traps have drawbacks but with a good group do mean you can keep something in a trap pretty much forever if you like. Don't know if Blizzard is balancing around the best skilled or the average skilled. Of course even with diminishing returns you just work that into your kill order.
Game-Changing New Powers - Concillian - 02-06-2007
Quote:Nah I only DPS tank when I far out gear the instance. I haven't done that since Strat.:)
Oh, come on, you were far outgeared for Ramparts and Blood Furnace when you stepped through the portal :P
Once we hit 61-62 that place was feeling very much like UBRS / Strat, especially on our 3 warrior / shaman / druid zerg through Blood Furnace.
Game-Changing New Powers - Concillian - 02-06-2007
Quote:And sweeping stikes seems to be bugged at the moment. some times the SS will do the same damage as the normal hit. Other times it will do a fair amount more.
Not really a bug, it takes mob armor into account now, I generally attack the low armor mob so rage gain is based on that, and swept damage will be lower, but the victory rush you get on him will make up for it.
The REAL bug is that, like a few patches ago, the mob positioning is critical. The mob cannot be at max melee range, or sweeping strikes will not hit it. Huge pain to use it effectively solo, generally not a big problem in instances since if you're using sweeping strikes, you're generally not the one tanking.
Game-Changing New Powers - Bolty - 02-06-2007
Quote:Oh, come on, you were far outgeared for Ramparts and Blood Furnace when you stepped through the portal :PQuite true, but the Ramparts was a good wake-up call to me about the difference in game knowledge/skill/experience out there, just in the first week of TBC.
After doing 1 or 2 smashthroughs of the place, I was questing out in HFP when I saw a PuG looking for a healer. It had been ages since I PuG-healed in a 5-man, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I could easily heal through any nubs, right?
Oh boy...
Like I said, it was a wake-up call. It astounded me how absolutely BAD some people are at this game. The group had 2 Warriors, a Hunter, and a Rogue. Neither Warrior used a shield. Ok, fine, this should be a good challenge, right? Well, both of these Warriors were of the "I'm gonna tank one mob, dammit" school of tanking. Which is to say, they didn't tank. Ok, fine, I can deal with one elite pounding on me until they get to it. Not like the Hunter would sic a pet on it or place a trap.
I suggested to one of the Warriors that they put on a shield and try to hold aggro. He gently protested, telling me that if he tried to tank more than one, he'd probably die. Oh, okay.
So naturally on the 3rd or 4th pull, they also pull the patrol adds. I completely expected this. The Hunter goes DPS Monkey mode and pulls 3 or 4 of them to him with Multishots, and...you guessed it...feigns death just as they're coming to him, putting them all on me. Facing immediate death, I Psychic Scream, and almost right away get a "don't fear" comment from one of the Warriors (who is happily tanking his one mob).
As the fear wears off, the 4 mobs return to me and I'm forced to go self-heal mode to survive. The Warriors and Rogue die, the Hunter goes feign death and I Psychic Scream again to run out of the instance.
I come back and start ressing. I ask the Hunter not to feign death like that since it'll put all those mobs on me, and his response is "but I'm gonna die." The Warriors both chime in, agreeing with the Hunter, stating that I can take a lot more damage than the Hunter, who will most assuredly die trying to take on 4 mobs. The logic of this is so beyond stupid that I don't even know what to say; I know this run is completely doomed. :)
So we go on to the next pull - same script; they never pull the mobs back, Warriors tank one mob each. I write in all caps in party chat, "TANK SOMETHING!" A patrol adds, wipe wipe, I run out of the instance. I wish them the best of luck and de-party.
Returning to questing, I notice in general chat they're asking for a healer. They stop asking about 5 minutes later. 15 minutes after that, they're in general chat asking for a healer. :)
I haven't PuG'ed again since. I know what the decent guilds on my server are, and if one of them is looking for a healer, sure, I'll go. Otherwise, I just stay away. There's a difference between a fun challenge healing a group of inexperienced players and healing a group of total idiots that make you wonder how they ever got to level 60.
Oh, and I'm having a ball in the level 70 instances. Mostly because you reach the point then where you can't outgear an instance anymore; that's where your epics from pre-TBC don't make the instance run a total cakewalk.
-Bolty
Game-Changing New Powers - ima_nerd - 02-06-2007
Quote:-snip-I used to just not heal the Warrior until he aggroed every mob. I'd just talk in party chat, saying things like "wow, your health is getting low! better aggro that ogre!" and "haha, i hope you have a pot".
-Bolty
I got kicked out of a lot of bad groups. Definitely not my loss.
Game-Changing New Powers - Mavfin - 02-06-2007
Quote:Oh, come on, you were far outgeared for Ramparts and Blood Furnace when you stepped through the portal :P
Once we hit 61-62 that place was feeling very much like UBRS / Strat, especially on our 3 warrior / shaman / druid zerg through Blood Furnace.
Yeah, but I've seen warriors in T2, just like mine, who couldn't tank for crap. I've seen several warriors on PuG runs that *just couldn't hold the dragon* in Ramparts. I was with Frag the other night, the dragon stuck to him like glue. I'm sure you and Tal do the same.
Game-Changing New Powers - Concillian - 02-06-2007
Quote:I'm sure you and Tal do the same.
As long as no DPS monkey aggro happy shaman are around :shuriken::P
Game-Changing New Powers - Mavfin - 02-06-2007
Quote:As long as no DPS monkey aggro happy shaman are around :shuriken::P
It's not me, at least on that fight, I'm usually too busy finishing off Vaz, or healing someone from the fire blobs to monkey early. I trinket/elemental mastery and nail him a bit *after* the tank has aggro (or should have aggro, anyway)
:D:D
Game-Changing New Powers - Ashock - 02-06-2007
Quote:Yeah, but I've seen warriors in T2, just like mine, who couldn't tank for crap. I've seen several warriors on PuG runs that *just couldn't hold the dragon* in Ramparts. I was with Frag the other night, the dragon stuck to him like glue. I'm sure you and Tal do the same.
And this is why I always maintain that 50-75% of raiders are not good players. You can afford that in a full raid (I suppose not in Naxx as much) but not in 5 mans.
-A
Game-Changing New Powers - Mavfin - 02-06-2007
Quote:And this is why I always maintain that 50-75% of raiders are not good players. You can afford that in a full raid (I suppose not in Naxx as much) but not in 5 mans.
-A
Just like all the hand-wringing on forums over druid and pally-tanking. I just shrug. Skilled players will find a raid slot. Unskilled may have less of a chance now. Simple as that.
Game-Changing New Powers - Kevin - 02-06-2007
Quote:As long as no DPS monkey aggro happy shaman are around :shuriken::P
Krashenk doesn't pull aggro, he off tanks. :):P
Actually I don't think Krashenk has pulled aggro on a boss while the tank was alive. I've done it on trash mobs. When you get windfury procing on both hands (my gear it still does more sustained damage than rockbiter or flametongue) right after/during a stormstrike + earth shock, well the damage spikes a bit. :) And I'm still in pretty sub par gear at 61, but I'll get MH WF procs that crit around 1.2K, OH procs around 600, and with the Storm strike debuff up earth shock can crit for over 1K as well. So I can in about 3 seconds put out 700 (MH normal crit) + 1200 + 1200 + 350 + 600 + 600 + 700 + 350 + 1000. That is MH normal crit, double crits from the MH WF, OH crit + 2x WF crit on the OH, Crits from both hands on Stormstrike, and an earhshock crit. Sure that takes the mob being fully sundered, Unleashed rage proc up, my SoE totem, and the warriors battleshout buff and I've never quite had that many crits to hit that 6700 number, but I've done over 5K with a sequence like that only limited by the global cooldown. I don't think I get the benefit that warriors in battle or zerker, or the base for rogues and cat druids on getting less aggro per damage point either. So a burst like that is big time aggro.
On bosses since I wait a bit to start in with a stormstrike or earth shock and since I'm generally in a more hybrid gear set so that I can be a more effective spot healer I don't have as high of a potential for that kind of spike, the warrior has a longer lead and more rage to work with as well. But it's a lot of fun to try and push the shaman and see if I can keep up with the other DPS classes. :) I just don't have some of the benefits of dropping the aggro.
Of course with rogues and druids and caster shammy around I don't get to use my own stormstrike charges a lot. They get eaten by poisons or wrath or lightning bolts, but that's generally not a big deal. Heck it's better if wrath or a lightning bolt eats over my earth shock. :)
But I get to play with good druid and warrior tanks all the time so I don't worry too much either. :)