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Andrew Meyer - kandrathe - 09-18-2007
Is he an idiot? Did he deserve it? Kind of sad... This guy was too far left of Kerry. What would he try to do at a GW Bush forum (if he could even get inside)?
YouTube Video
At most university political forums I attend there is someone like this who ends up being dragged away in handcuffs from the lecture.
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-18-2007
The situation escalated when cooler heads should have prevailed. First, once it was clear his question was going to be an attack on Kerry, he still should have been allowed to finish asking the question without interference by the police. By interfering the police effectively escalated the situation rather than subdued it. His question was one that could have been dealt with civilly with a response (or a no comment) by Senator Kerry.
Second, once it was clear he was being arrested, he should not have resisted. All he had to do is to physically comply, verbally declare he was being arrested unfairly and wants others to witness it. The fact that he physically resisted is a rather clear sign he was looking to make a scene, to provoke the officers into worse action.
With that said, I've personally witnessed a situation similar to this that was dealt with in a much better manner by the police. When it was clear he was resisting arrest, one officer calmly took the verbal lead. Explained why he was being taken into custody, and why he must be restrained. When he continued to yell, they put his arms behind his back and pushed him out the door (presumably to be cuffed and put into the back of a cruiser).
In the case of the UF student, I'm uncertain why the police didn't take similar action - remove the problem student from the audience with clear verbal explanation and swift physical action.
The whole situation is rather absurd.
Cheers,
Munk
Andrew Meyer - Taelas - 09-19-2007
Quote:Second, once it was clear he was being arrested, he should not have resisted. All he had to do is to physically comply, verbally declare he was being arrested unfairly and wants others to witness it. The fact that he physically resisted is a rather clear sign he was looking to make a scene, to provoke the officers into worse action.I do not believe he was looking to "make a scene". He tried to ask a question (which admittedly was nothing more than an attack on Kelly). He doesn't want to be arrested and he doesn't understand why they are arresting him (and apparently they wouldn't tell him). Unjustified arrest -- yeah, I think it's understandable why he tried to resist. Not very smart, but still understandable.
"Disturbing a public education function"? Give me a break. He was a loudmouth asking a question. If they don't want people to ask questions, don't give them a damn microphone. It's called "Freedom of Speech" for a reason, damnit.
I am quite apalled at this. They are standing, what, 5-6 officers around him--tazering him. What, do they think he's going to pull a gun on them?
Does this really happen that often in the US? I've never heard about anything like this around here. Then again, Denmark is a small country.
Andrew Meyer - Swiss Mercenary - 09-19-2007
Quote:Does this really happen that often in the US?Probably not at education functions.
Andrew Meyer - kandrathe - 09-19-2007
Quote:I do not believe he was looking to "make a scene". He tried to ask a question (which admittedly was nothing more than an attack on Kelly). He doesn't want to be arrested and he doesn't understand why they are arresting him (and apparently they wouldn't tell him). Unjustified arrest -- yeah, I think it's understandable why he tried to resist. Not very smart, but still understandable.It happens frequently on campuses, and more so with the advent of non-lethal controls like tazers, and pepper spray. There is an "escalate until arrested" protest group on almost every larger campus. While I was in school the group moved from issue to issue over time always looking for some reason to chain themselves together in the provosts office. In Minneapolis there is a perpetual protest organization who periodically trespass on certain local defense contractors premises, and mostly politely sit and wait to get arrested.
"Disturbing a public education function"? Give me a break. He was a loudmouth asking a question. If they don't want people to ask questions, don't give them a damn microphone. It's called "Freedom of Speech" for a reason, damnit.
I am quite apalled at this. They are standing, what, 5-6 officers around him--tazering him. What, do they think he's going to pull a gun on them?
Does this really happen that often in the US? I've never heard about anything like this around here. Then again, Denmark is a small country.
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-19-2007
Quote:Unjustified arrest -- yeah, I think it's understandable why he tried to resist. Not very smart, but still understandable.
You don't resist arrest and shout 'why am I being arrested' unless you're trying to make a scene. The question isn't whether or not he is correct, its whether or not he's escalating the situation. As far as morally correct or incorrect, I don't disagree with your overall point:)
Quote:Does this really happen that often in the US? I've never heard about anything like this around here. Then again, Denmark is a small country.
I don't think Kandrathe is off the mark in his reply. There are plenty of young students willing to take freedom of speech and civil disobedience to its logical end. This may be ignorance since I'm from the 'liberal Northeast', but my general experience is that a.) that kind of blunt questioning is common and b.) the vast majority of the time its dealt with civilly on both parts.
The worst that generally comes of it is someone being removed civilly, but only after a good deal of trying on their part to get removed.
As Kandrathe said, the prevalence of 'non-lethal weapons' like pepper spray and tazers, in conjunction with poor training by security personnel, makes this kind of situation-gone-bad more common.
Cheers,
Munk
Andrew Meyer - Vandiablo - 09-19-2007
Line-cutting was the original offense (according to the CNN story). If he had stuck with a quick question, his line-cutting offense may have been ignored.
So when the line-cutter was adversarial and, worse, time-consuming at the microphone, the campus cops had had enough and started to pull him from the microphone.
When he didn't go nicely, as he should have, the cops slowly picked it up a notch. He resisted more, they pulled more, he resisted more. Then the biggest campus cop picked him up and carried him to the door.
Hard to tell at that point if he's still resisting, since he is swarmed by c.c.'s, but we can still hear him shouting with indignation. Then a scream which must be the Taser. I take this to mean they are trying to cuff him, but he was still thrashing.
Here are some of my opinions. . . (opinions are like *'s, to use Vonnegut's shorthand punctuation...)
Meyer is right to give Kerry hard questions about the 2004 election and other topics. The frustrating thing about being left is that your only choice, really, is Democrats, and often it seems like they don't really work hard enough for real change.
Meyer was wrong to "barge to the front".
The UF cops were right to ask him to step from the microphone.
The UF cops were wrong to continue pulling Meyer when Kerry said he'd answer the questions. (Although it looked to me like Meyer wasn't ever going to stop talking.)
Meyer was wrong to continue shouting and to physically resist when being pulled from the microphone.
If you've never tried to physically restrain someone who doesn't want to be restrained, don't be too quick to judge the tasing. Just one frantic person can cause a lot of damage and injury.
However, with 5 or 6 cops, including one big enough to carry Meyer without help, around Meyer; Meyer has no weapon in hand; Meyer's on the frickin' floor -- well the UF cops got some splaining to do.
Quote:If you've never tried to physically restrain someone who doesn't want to be restrainedHuh? What have you done, who have you Held Against Their Will?
Well, I was in a fraternity when-- no, no, it's not like that -- we had shower rolls, see? It'd be somebody's birthday, or someone was too obnoxious during the weekly meeting, and sometimes it was your duty to throw that someone in the shower... or sometimes it was your birthday and you resisted because dammit you weren't going to let that small group of weaklings take advantage of you (a win in this case would be dragging someone else so they got wet.... in my case I did very well by using the shower curtain to deflect water onto the weaklings so all of them got wet too HAH!)
More recently, I've had to give medicine to toddlers Who Did NOT Want It. Two adults against a toddler, it was STILL a struggle, tho nobody got hurt.
-V
Greek <strike>Liaision</strike> <strike>Liason</strike> Coordinator
The Forsaken Inn
Andrew Meyer - oldmandennis - 09-19-2007
Tasering is probably less likely to do semipermanent damage then forcibly wrenching somebody's hands behind their back for cuffing, or clubbing him into submission. The guy was a jerk, just like the Best Buy guy was.
This sort of thing could only happen to Kerry.
Andrew Meyer - kandrathe - 09-19-2007
Quote:Is he an idiot? Did he deserve it? Kind of sad... This guy was too far left of Kerry. What would he try to do at a GW Bush forum (if he could even get inside)?A follow up article in the Central Florida Alligator.
YouTube Video
At most university political forums I attend there is someone like this who ends up being dragged away in handcuffs from the lecture.
Andrew Meyer - Zippyy - 09-19-2007
Quote:This sort of thing could only happen to Kerry.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=727217893461665334
Andrew Meyer - eppie - 09-19-2007
Quote:At most university political forums I attend there is someone like this who ends up being dragged away in handcuffs from the lecture.
That seems quite disturbing to me.
Andrew Meyer - Taelas - 09-19-2007
Quote:It happens frequently on campuses, and more so with the advent of non-lethal controls like tazers, and pepper spray. There is an "escalate until arrested" protest group on almost every larger campus. While I was in school the group moved from issue to issue over time always looking for some reason to chain themselves together in the provosts office. In Minneapolis there is a perpetual protest organization who periodically trespass on certain local defense contractors premises, and mostly politely sit and wait to get arrested.Sigh.<_<
Quote:You don't resist arrest and shout 'why am I being arrested' unless you're trying to make a scene.Or unless you just plain do not want to be arrested. Why does there have to be an ulterior motive?
Even though it's partially his fault, I can't fault him for trying to resist when 3 or more people are suddenly dragging him away and refusing to tell him why -- even though they are campus police.
Quote:Tasering is probably less likely to do semipermanent damage then forcibly wrenching somebody's hands behind their back for cuffing, or clubbing him into submission. The guy was a jerk, just like the Best Buy guy was.The fact that it's less violent than other submission methods does not automatically mean it's OK.
I do not see any reason to a.) remove him in the first place, or b.) taser him when he resists. It's not as if he's attacking them (and I even believe that at some point he says he'll leave if they let him get up).
Andrew Meyer - oldmandennis - 09-19-2007
Quote:I do not see any reason to a.) remove him in the first place, or b.) taser him when he resists. It's not as if he's attacking them (and I even believe that at some point he says he'll leave if they let him get up).
So if they aren't going to remove him, what do they do when he woln't shut up? Stand around for 1/2 hr while he yells at a sitting senator and a war hero? And I believe that you believe that he SAYS he will leave... I don't know why you believe that he would. Don't they have this radical protest culture in Europe?
The guy has freedom of speech rights to his wacky conspiracy theories. He could stand outside with a bull horn and a sign. He can post it to the internet. He could have quickly and respectfully made his point. He has no right to try and monopolize the mic a private function. Once the police make it clear you have to leave, not leaving is civil disobeadiance, and you take your chances.
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-19-2007
Quote:Or unless you just plain do not want to be arrested. Why does there have to be an ulterior motive?
Unless you're an idiot, you know resisting arrest results in more charges and an escalated situation. No one who resists arrests ends up the better for it. It's a pretty simple fact to grasp, so defying arrest does imply a.)massive stupidity or b.)an ulterior motive.
Cheers,
Munk
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-19-2007
Quote:That seems quite disturbing to me.
If you believe in free speech, don't be disturbed. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with laws of civility. If you don't cause too much of a ruckus, you'll be fine. But if you keep pushing the issue and draw a line in the sand, you're risking temporary removal for the sake of free speech. Young people are often times the most vehement about taking freedom of speech to the nth, and get themselves kicked out of political arenas quite frequently.
They aren't removed to 'shut them up' or 'stifle their voice', they are removed because they are creating a potentially bad situation. And often times the goal is to be removed. Once you are, you can go to the media (web included) and make your voice heard even louder.
It's just part of the great cycle that's freedom of speech;)
Cheers,
Munk
Andrew Meyer - Nastie_Bowie - 09-19-2007
Quote:If you believe in free speech, don't be disturbed. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with laws of civility. If you don't cause too much of a ruckus, you'll be fine. But if you keep pushing the issue and draw a line in the sand, you're risking temporary removal for the sake of free speech. Young people are often times the most vehement about taking freedom of speech to the nth, and get themselves kicked out of political arenas quite frequently./applause
They aren't removed to 'shut them up' or 'stifle their voice', they are removed because they are creating a potentially bad situation. And often times the goal is to be removed. Once you are, you can go to the media (web included) and make your voice heard even louder.
It's just part of the great cycle that's freedom of speech;)
Cheers,
Munk
Too bad it isn't like the good old days, when the police would have baton practise on this knucklehead's melon.
:lol:
Andrew Meyer - Jester - 09-19-2007
"Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"
"Bloody peasant!"
-Jester
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-19-2007
Quote:Tasering is probably less likely to do semipermanent damage then forcibly wrenching somebody's hands behind their back for cuffing, or clubbing him into submission.
Too coincidental to not link this story. woman in a wheelchair tasered 10 times, ultimately resulting in her death.
Its good to keep in mind even a toothpick, stabbed enough times, could kill someone. So I'm far from calling for an all out ban on tasers. But it is pretty crazy to see stories of them causing death in some people. I'd much rather have a dislocated shoulder.
Cheers,
Munk
Andrew Meyer - Taelas - 09-20-2007
Quote:So if they aren't going to remove him, what do they do when he woln't shut up? Stand around for 1/2 hr while he yells at a sitting senator and a war hero?He would have asked his question, and Kerry would have answered him, civilly. If he kept going after that, fine, remove him. But do it quietly, without resorting to the show of force they used.
Quote:And I believe that you believe that he SAYS he will leave... I don't know why you believe that he would. Don't they have this radical protest culture in Europe?
He says he will leave. What problem is there in letting him up and give him a chance to prove that he means it? If he doesn't leave, you can STILL force him out. If he DOES leave, you've avoided using more violence.
Do you honestly believe it's not worth giving him the chance to leave in order to avoid violence?
Quote:The guy has freedom of speech rights to his wacky conspiracy theories. He could stand outside with a bull horn and a sign. He can post it to the internet. He could have quickly and respectfully made his point. He has no right to try and monopolize the mic a private function. Once the police make it clear you have to leave, not leaving is civil disobeadiance, and you take your chances.I'm not saying the guy isn't an idiot. He IS, he made that pretty damn obvious. What I am saying is he was not treated fairly, even if he DID disturb the function.
Quote:Unless you're an idiot, you know resisting arrest results in more charges and an escalated situation. No one who resists arrests ends up the better for it. It's a pretty simple fact to grasp, so defying arrest does imply a.)massive stupidity or b.)an ulterior motive.Of course you know this. That does not mean you act according to it. When you're taken by surprise, you act. You don't always have time to think, "Wait, this isn't smart."
Cheers,
Munk
From what I saw in the clip, I absolutely do not believe he had an ulterior motive.
Andrew Meyer - Munkay - 09-20-2007
Quote:Of course you know this. That does not mean you act according to it. When you're taken by surprise, you act. You don't always have time to think, "Wait, this isn't smart."
From what I saw in the clip, I absolutely do not believe he had an ulterior motive.
You always have time to think. Especially if it's dragged out for 3 minutes, and men are standing on top of you saying 'I am going to Taser you'. You're really giving him too much credit, this wasn't a one second snap decision. It was a continuous decision made over a matter of minutes.
And believe me, I'm not here trying to defend the actions of the police officers. But I've also seen enough of that video to know that kid had a plan for protest before he even asked his question.
Cheers,
Munk