+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: The Lurker Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: France under fire (/thread-1734.html)
France under fire - eppie - 08-05-2008
*I couldn't find an article about his yet in an English language website, hopefully it can be posted later.
The Tutsi government of Rwanda is accusing France of actively having cooperated in the 1994 genocide of Tutsi minorities by members of the Hutu majority.
Of course this report has been written by a committee supported by the Tutsi government, and France is accusing Rwanda's president Kagame of being involved in the shooting down of a plane with on board president at the time Juvénal Habyarimana of Rwanda (the action that started the genocide).
I wonder how this evolves.
Of course getting evidence is very difficult in these cases. Likely many war criminals have now gotten asylum in other countries and politics plays a too big role here (I guess in most wars 95 % of war criminals does not get punished).
France under fire - kandrathe - 08-05-2008
Quote:*I couldn't find an article about his yet in an English language website, hopefully it can be posted later.Here are a couple sites...
AllAfrica Times - Rwanda: 1994 Tutsi Genocide - Try French Suspects
BBC News -- Rwanda: How the genocide happened
First, in the game of geo-politics, you are sometimes required to pick sides. When you aid a brutal dictator or hunta, whether we are talking about Iraq, El Salvador, Kenya, or Rwanda, you risk getting the blood of innocents on your hands. The US, Britain, Russia, China, France and many other nations have all aided terrible people in the third world to do terrible things. Mix in corporate greed, and my god, we (i.e. G8 -- powerful nations) are all exploitative and brutal. The reality of power, greed, corruption, and injustice expressed in deaths in Africa is unforgivable, from oil, chromium, cobalt, manganese, pharmaceutical testing, and blood diamonds. (USGS - Strategic African Minerals). Check out a map of strategic African mineral deposits, and you will find those places that are worth fighting over.
See also; GlobalSecurity.org -- U.S. RELIANCE ON AFRICA FOR STRATEGIC MINERALS. If the US needs them, then the EU, Russia, and China are also vying for control and access.
Back to France, and its strategic interests in Africa. This paper by Nicholas Pederson of ACDIS is very expository -- Changes in French Policy Towards Africa To summarize that paper; France has historically kept more control over its former colonial properties, and namely Niger and Gabon as a source of uranium. As the cold war ended, and other sources of uranium became available, France was able to let go of Africa. It is likely that what happened in Africa is that as France started pulling out its control, similar to the release by the USSR of control in the Balkans, it resulted in the resumption of a centuries old conflicts that were frozen in time. Pederson states, "Ultimately, it was an attempt by France to provide a clear distinction between the Francophone areas of Africa and the Anglophone areas. In attempting drawing that line, France armed the Hutu forces that did the majority of the killing. While France would not have sold the arms to the Hutus if the French knew the eventual usage of the weapons, it does not change the fact that the French supplied the Hutuâs. Also, the French Central bank was busy devaluing the CFA franc. In January of 1994, the value of the CFA franc was decreased by over fifty percent. This was done to allow monetary unification within the EU. However, the side effect was economic chaos in French Africa, and destabilizing Habyarimana's government.
But, guns and money (like matches and gasoline) are only the tip of the iceberg. I believe it is more as Human Rights Watch states, "This genocide resulted from the deliberate choice of a modern elite to foster hatred and fear to keep itself in power. This small, privileged group first set the majority against the minority to counter a growing political opposition within Rwanda. Then, faced with RPF success on the battlefield and at the negotiating table, these few power holders transformed the strategy of ethnic division into genocide. They believed that the extermination campaign would restore the solidarity of the Hutu under their leadership and help them win the war, or at least improve their chances of negotiating a favorable peace. They seized control of the state and used its machinery and its authority to carry out the slaughter." â Leave None to Tell the Story; Genocide in Rwanda, Human Rights Watch, March 1999
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-07-2008
Quote:As often as I take the piss out of the French, they weren't pulling the triggers, nor swinging the machete or scythe in the slaughter.
Of course getting evidence is very difficult in these cases. Likely many war criminals have now gotten asylum in other countries and politics plays a too big role here (I guess in most wars 95 % of war criminals does not get punished).
This is sick a mutation of an attempt to capture the spirit of the Nuremberg War Crimes trials, under a globalized idiot meme of second and third order agency as primary accountability. We heard similar idiocy among American useful idiots in the run up to the Iraq War: "But we sold him the weapon.s"
Not only was that false, the primary suppliers of arms for Saddam were Russian and French, but the source of chem weapons were chemicals sold for other purposes. That second order effects of exports are twisted by liars into alleged culpability for someone else pulling the trigger is contemptible abuse of facts, presented in an attempt to turn a lie into something resembling a semi true story. Quelle surprise, politics is involved, and with it comes the appeal to The Cult Of The Victim.
I spit with great force on Paul Kagame, if he endorses this line of tripe. The slaughter in Rwanda was executed by those who wielded the weapons, not those who sold or built them. More rubbish from the malcontents of the Third World. Wonderful. For all the good work on the reconcilliation that has been done in Rwanda over the past decade, this is a step backward.
"It's Europe's fault that we are screwed up. It's America's fault that we are screwed up."
No. It's your fault. Unscrew yourselves. The power has always been in your own hands, you are just too stupid to see it.
Occhi
France under fire - eppie - 08-07-2008
Quote:As often as I take the piss out of the French, they weren't pulling the triggers, nor swinging the machete or scythe in the slaughter.
Occhi
Well apparently some of them did, at least according to this report made by Rwandan (Tutsi) investigators.
And the french had been allegedly training Hutu militia´s whilst knowing what was going on.
So of course I don't know if this is true, but these allegations are not just of the 'you sold us the weapons' kind.
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-07-2008
Quote:And the french had been allegedly training Hutu militia´s whilst knowing what was going on.What part about "the French were not pulling the triggers" did you fail to understand? European nations have had training missions all of Africa for decades, trying to professionalize their armed forces, to get the armed forces to stop being warlords of the old style.
What the Hutus embarked upon had, and has, Not a F*******ing thing to do with the standard training missions that went on, and go on to this day all over Africa.
Occhi
France under fire - eppie - 08-07-2008
Quote:What part about "the French were not pulling the triggers" did you fail to understand?
Occhi
What part of 'well, apparently some of them did' did you fail to read?
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-07-2008
Quote:What part of 'well, apparently some of them did' did you fail to read?Did you read the link kandrathe provided?
AllAfrica Times - Rwanda: 1994 Tutsi Genocide - Try French Suspects
Now, once you read it, please tell me, in your own words, why you think the <strike>article</strike> hit piece
is objective and factual,
or
the standard load of hearsay and agitprop.
While you are at it, learn the old adage, and follow the money.
Now, let's look at k's second link:
Quote:The genocide was sparked by the death of the Rwandan president Juvenal Habyarimana, a Hutu, when his plane was shot down above Kigali airport on 6 April 1994.And so Kagame has to have a rhetorical counter to that accusation, of whatever merit it holds. (I have my doubts that Kagame was behind the shootdown.)
A recent French official report blamed current Rwandan President, Paul Kagame.
The report - extracts of which appeared in the daily, Le Monde - said French police had concluded that Mr Kagame gave direct orders for the rocket attack.
Now we go to the events themselves.
Quote:In August 1993, after several attacks and months of negotiation, a peace accord was signed between Habyarimana and the RPF, but it did little to stop the continued unrest.But to eppie, the French were pulling the triggers.
When Habyarimana's plane was shot down at the beginning of April 1994, it was the final nail in the coffin.
Exactly who killed the president - and with him the president of Burundi and many chief members of staff - has not been established.
Whoever was behind the killing its effect was both instantaneous and catastrophic.
Mass murder
In Kigali, the presidential guard immediately initiated a campaign of retribution. Leaders of the political opposition were murdered, and almost immediately, the slaughter of Tutsis and moderate Hutus began.
Within hours, recruits were dispatched all over the country to carry out a wave of slaughter.
The early organisers included military officials, politicians and businessmen, but soon many others joined in the mayhem.
Encouraged by the presidential guard and radio propaganda, an unofficial militia group called the Interahamwe (meaning those who attack together) was mobilised. At its peak, this group was 30,000-strong.
Soldiers and police officers encouraged ordinary citizens to take part. In some cases, Hutu civilians were forced to murder their Tutsi neighbours by military personnel.
Participants were often given incentives, such as money or food, and some were even told they could appropriate the land of the Tutsis they killed.
On the ground at least, the Rwandans were largely left alone by the international community. UN troops withdrew after the murder of 10 soldiers.
Even the reasonably rational piece about French changes in Africa policy (kandrathe's last post) falls for the lie. Nicely done, I might add, since its aims are to show how the new and better idea is better than the old, blah blah blah.
Ultimately, it was an attempt by France to provide a clear distinction between the Francophone areas of Africa and the Anglophone areas. In attempting drawing that line, France armed the Hutu forces that did the majority of the killing. While France would not have sold the arms to the Hutus if the French knew the eventual usage of the weapons, it does not change the fact that the French supplied the Hutuâs.
The fact that at the time THE HUTUS WERE BY AND LARGE THE GOVERNING FACTION/PARTY IN THAT COUNTRY, and thus the legitimate government with whom any foreign nation and its agencies must deal, apparently was overlooked by the authors of that piece.
HEY, EPPIE, LISTEN UP, REALITY IS CALLING YOU!
As a government, you deal with the governments who are in power.
Or, you can be like eppie and ignore reality, and throw them out of the UN if, as eppie would promise us, you can predict that they are naughty people by reading their minds, and thus should be treated differently.
Let me illustrate in a way even you can understand: When Schroeder was elected in Gemany, the US dealt with the German government who was now in power. The US did not deal with not the Germans in the parties who did NOT win the majority. So, when the French were doing their military assistance bit, they did so with the government in power, not some ethereal entity invented in the mind of eppie. That those in power turned scumbag as quick as the plane went down is
Not The Fault Of The French.
A bit more of an in depth look. www.iansa.org/documents/development/undermining_development.htm
Edited for brevity
Quote:Arms exports to the regionBut eppie wants to blame the French for genocide, perhaps due to him pretending that the Rwandan war was some sort of spike in the generally violent political friction in Africa since WW II ended.
Finland and Germany both supplied Eritrea with military transport aircraft in 1994, and Italy licensed the export of jet trainer aircraft in 1996 [3]. This is despite the fact that Eritrea has recently emerged from a prolonged conflict, and is currently in dispute with Sudan.
The UK, from 1993 - 1996, issued arms export licences for the following categories of equipment to countries in the Horn and Central Africa (no figures are available for exports since June 1996, due to a computer breakdown in the Department for Trade and Industry):
France supplied five shipments of arms to Rwandan Government forces after the imposition of the UN arms embargo, in May and June 1994, according to Human Rights Watch. The shipments allegedly contained artillery, machine guns, assault rifles, and ammunition [4]. The French Consul in Goma justified the shipments as being fulfilment of contracts negotiated prior to the embargo.
France signed a military co-operation accord with Rwanda in July 1976. Military assistance totalled nearly 12 million Francs in 1992 [5] , including ammunition supplies, training for the military, and aerial support.
France also signed an accord with Burundi in 1974. Military assistance continued into 1995, whilst Burundi was in the midst of a civil war. Between 1992 and 1994, France supplied the equivalent of US$10 million in military transfers to Burundi, including helicopter gunships, spare parts for aircraft and armoured vehicles, light weapons and artillery, and communication equipment[6].
The illicit trade
One of the most significant findings of the report is that the vast bulk of weapons exported to the Horn and Central Africa have not been officially recorded or registered, and have arrived illicitly. In most cases, such transfers have involved light weapons or small arms. The report contains extensive details of alleged illicit transfers (often in contravention of UN or other embargoes).
Belgium
Belgian involvement in Africa has tended to be concentrated in Central Africa, especially those countries that formerly made up Belgian Congo - Rwanda and Burundi. Belgian law prohibits the sale of "lethal aid" to countries at war. Consequently, the Belgian government suspended the provision of all arms to Rwanda in 1990, when war broke out. (But until then, Occhi notes, sell they did.)
A large proportion of Belgian arms documented in the Horn and Central Africa by various sources are, therefore, likely to have been exported prior to the imposition of embargoes on these countries, or to have arrived illicitly from other sources.
The vast majority of allegations of Belgian involvement in arms transfers relate to brokering by Belgian-based companies or individuals, or to the use of Belgian ports and airports as transit points for illicit shipments of arms. Although the Belgian authorities have made some moves to block the illegal transhipment of arms and military equipment through Belgian ports, Belgium continues to have a reputation as being a 'hub for international arms trafficking' [7] . Networks operating out of Belgium are alleged to have facilitated the delivery of weapons from the former Soviet Union to Africa [8], including Burundi, the Zairean military, and Hutu rebel forces based in Eastern Zaire [9].
A Belgian entrepreneur is said to have been one of the primary arms procurers for the Burundian government and military, and for Tutsi paramilitary forces. According to Human Rights Watch, his clients in Africa have included President Mobutu of Zaire, UNITA's Jonas Savimbi, and President Buyoya [10].
Landmines of Belgian origin were identified in Rwanda by French (and other Western) officials, according to Human Rights Watch. The landmines were traced to a shipment previously sold by Belgium (at an unspecified date) to Libya [12].
A Belgian company, FN Herstal ha s been instrumental in building and equipping an ammunition factory in Kenya at a cost of 2.4 billion Bfr. There have been a number of allegations that ammunition from the factory has been supplied to the Great Lakes region, including Interahamwe militia groups in Zaire [13].
So, where did Kagame and the RPF get their weapons? ;)
Eppie, you might want to learn how cynical "victor's justice" is, in its implementation. That the Rwandan rhetoric wishes to apply this across borders is more garbage. Their hands are not clean.
Occhi
France under fire - kandrathe - 08-07-2008
Quote:Well apparently some of them did, at least according to this report made by Rwandan (Tutsi) investigators. And the French had been allegedly training Hutu militia´s whilst knowing what was going on. So of course I don't know if this is true, but these allegations are not just of the 'you sold us the weapons' kind.Two thoughts;
1) The French were responsible for more than just selling weapons. As I pointed out, they were also indirectly responsible for the economic destabilization that led to the civilian strife. Also, their withdrawal from African left a power vacuum. I doubt the French were pro-Hutu, or anti-Tutsi. More likely, for the "party in power", and against "rebels trying to take power". So, before we jump to outrageous conclusions, let's ask some reasonable questions. Like, "who was getting trained?", and "what training did they receive?" before we accuse the French of aiding the Hutu's "while the slaughter" unfolded.
2) Just as the Brits in Kenya, or the US at Abu Garib, sometimes individuals or units do wrong things. If there is evidence of crimes, then let's bring them forward and prosecute the individuals. Atrocities are not a part of the French military doctrine. Too often the aberrations of a very few individuals are used for propaganda purposes to vilify 99.999% of soldiers who bravely, with sacrifice serve their countries. I'm not saying this is the case here, but it is a possibility.
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-08-2008
Quote:Two thoughts;You seem to presume that French soldiers were fighting alongsice the Hutu.
1) The French were responsible for more than just selling weapons. As I pointed out, they were also indirectly responsible for the economic destabilization that led to the civilian strife. Also, their withdrawal from African left a power vacuum. I doubt the French were pro-Hutu, or anti-Tutsi. More likely, for the "party in power", and against "rebels trying to take power". So, before we jump to outrageous conclusions, let's ask some reasonable questions. Like, "who was getting trained?", and "what training did they receive?" before we accuse the French of aiding the Hutu's "while the slaughter" unfolded.
2) Just as the Brits in Kenya, or the US at Abu Garib, sometimes individuals or units do wrong things. If there is evidence of crimes, then let's bring them forward and prosecute the individuals. Atrocities are not a part of the French military doctrine. Too often the aberrations of a very few individuals are used for propaganda purposes to vilify 99.999% of soldiers who bravely, with sacrifice serve their countries. I'm not saying this is the case here, but it is a possibility.
Why?
Occhi
France under fire - kandrathe - 08-08-2008
Quote:You seem to presume that French soldiers were fighting alongside the Hutu.I don't think they fought along side them. But, they may have had "military advisors" training the Hutu dominated government's forces in the struggle against the RPF. Being at a base and showing the new recruits how to clean their new firearms is a long way from genocide.
Why?
Occhi
France under fire - Assur - 08-08-2008
After the genocide against the Tutsi had been stopped because the armed Tutsi had advanced from Uganda to save the few survivors, the French launched "Opération Turquoise". This operation secured an area in southern Rwanda from which the Hutu Militias, the Interwahamwe, could retreat to the Kongo. During this period the French cooperated with the Hutus to kill those Tutsis in the area they controlled!
http://www.taz.de/1/politik/afrika/artikel...er-mordmilizen/
http://www.taz.de/1/politik/afrika/artikel...reichs-schande/
The US under Clinton/Albright proclaimed during the same time that there was no genocide going in in Rwanda and blocked UN action in Rwanda.
France under fire - eppie - 08-08-2008
Quote:
But eppie wants to blame the French for genocide, perhaps due to him pretending that the Rwandan war was some sort of spike in the generally violent political friction in Africa since WW II ended.
So, where did Kagame and the RPF get their weapons? ;)
Eppie, you might want to learn how cynical "victor's justice" is, in its implementation. That the Rwandan rhetoric wishes to apply this across borders is more garbage. Their hands are not clean.
Occhi
Occhi, I nowhere stated if I think the allegations are true or false. I started a thread based on an article I read in which (among others) french individuals are blamed for personally killing people in Rwanda.
I wasn't there at the time, I know that ugly things are going in Africa all the time, I know that colonial times messed that continent up bad, but I'm not saying that we are 'still' responsible for that.
My interest was in seeing if this story just blows away, or if politicians will take this seriously and respond in that mater.
Please don't respond to things I did not say, pretending I said them, discussions will get much more difficult to follow that way.
ps I just want to state that the US (and in particular GW Bush, and of course Cheney) is responsible for this whole business, that is what me and my eurotrash buddies think at least. Did you really think I would say these bad things about our brothers from France with whom we share so many ideas and traditions. :)
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-08-2008
Quote:Occhi, I nowhere stated if I think the allegations are true or false. I started a thread based on an article I read in which (among others) french individuals are blamed for personally killing people in Rwanda.Ah, so like the standard useful idiot, you were trolling.
Quote:Please don't respond to things I did not say, pretending I said them, discussions will get much more difficult to follow that way.OK, that is a fair request. Why, then, did you choose to spread the story?
@ Assur: while I very much enjoyed your links, what your narrative explained and what is being charged is NOT French complicity in genocide, which was put paid to by Paul Kagame and his faction.
Quote:ps I just want to state that the US (and in particular GW Bush, and of course Cheney) is responsible for this whole business, that is what me and my eurotrash buddies think at least. Did you really think I would say these bad things about our brothers from France with whom we share so many ideas and traditions. :)OK, I will now remind you that Clinton was president, and that your love for George W Bush borders on the homosexually pornographic. That the French were critical to the process that allowed some two million Hutu to infest the Congo, and at the same time become beneficiaries of the UN, and thus prevent a
SECOND GENOCIDE
by the Tutsi on the Hutu, seems to have escaped you.
The risk of that was a non zero probability. The French went all British, and muddled through as best they could. Eppie, you need to bookmark this post, I am standing up for the French. This might be a Lurker Lounge first.:)
Those who do not understand war ought to have a care when they comment on it.
Happy now?
Occhi
France under fire - kandrathe - 08-08-2008
Quote:...I believe he was being intentionally facetious to get your goat! He got it. You old goat! :lol:
Quote:ps I just want to state that the US (and in particular GW Bush, and of course Cheney) is responsible for this whole business, that is what me and my eurotrash buddies think at least. Did you really think I would say these bad things about our brothers from France with whom we share so many ideas and traditions.OK, I will now remind you that Clinton was president, and that your love for George W Bush borders on the homosexually pornographic. That the French were critical to the process that allowed some two million Hutu to infest the Congo, and at the same time become beneficiaries of the UN, and thus ...
France under fire - eppie - 08-09-2008
Quote:and that your love for George W Bush borders on the homosexually pornographic.
Occhi
Well he is cute isn't he.
<_<
France under fire - Occhidiangela - 08-10-2008
Quote:Well he is cute isn't he.No, he's funny looking. His daughters? Cute.
<_<
Occhi