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Funding arts, humanities, and education - kandrathe - 11-08-2013
(11-08-2013, 03:20 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote: Quality is almost always balanced by the return of investment, because this is still show -business-.Understood. To me, show business has its roots in spectacle, in vaudeville, in the circus. Criticism mostly has to do with the quality, or artistry. Quality and artistic expression are often exploited by show business. My concern is that when we aspire culturally for the artistic, we only end up with what's projected to be popular and profitable. In business, this would be expressed as the "acceptable quality" or tolerance, in that we need a reasonably priced product of good enough quality.
Quote:No, really, it's a quality film. I'm still hoping to get a chance to see it in the theater. But, if not, then I'll certainly attempt to see it on the small screen.Quote:And... I'm not saying that Gravity lacks artistry. Just that I separate popularity from quality.But you basically...just did. And that's your problem by the way, not mine. I have no qualms with acknowledging quality in a popular work.
Quote:A work that is popular doesn't diminish it's quality in my eyes.Nor mine. All art is not entertainment, and vice versa. I can think of many in one that are totally lacking in the other. Some like, "Dr. Detroit", lack both, for which I wish there were such thing as a selective memory eraser.
Quote:Hollywood doesn't have that much power. If you think it does, then that might be your problem, not mine.I was generalizing to arts in general.
...
If you want to talk about critiquing paintings ... If there's anything else on topic I don't mind discussing them here.
I do a little bronze sculpting. Many of the people I work (share casting facilities) with make their things, then go around to craft fairs, and have a small retail space and seem to be working on being popular to fund their craft hobby. It feels like they're changing their styles to find what is popular, rather than expressing themselves in the medium. I'm sure Shogu would say the same thing happens in the Music industry.
The funding of entertainment is a peeve of mine when comparing the $ devoted in our culture to something like playing football, or being an action star in blockbusters versus how artists in general are funded, or more important functions such as teacher. But, yes, I'm appreciative of your laser focus on Gravity alone. I'm encouraged by advent of Indie films, and Indie in general. The high cost of production of a movie like Gravity could be a compelling reason why it needed to be a studio affair.
Anyway, I thought this might be s discussion topic. There is also a looming change coming to higher education, where some "desirable" disciplines will get preferential federal aid.
RE: Funding arts, humanities, and education - Hammerskjold - 11-10-2013
(11-08-2013, 06:00 PM)kandrathe Wrote: Criticism mostly has to do with the quality, or artistry. Quality and artistic expression are often exploited by show business.
You know what I find help reduce exploitation? Education on the business side of things. That goes double for anyone in the creative -business-. There is little practical use in complaining about the big bad business (show biz or otherwise) 'out' there, as an external threat.
Yes, they do exist. But so does internal threats like 'omg I'm such a tragicool starving artiste...I'd feel guilty if I were to sell out, rawr rawr I'm fighting da Man by never selling my art!'
But hey it's not cool that someone is basically approving an artist work by giving them a measurable support like...their money. Who knows maybe that money also means the artist can continue doing the work, and if other people like it, buy some more of his \ her work.
Bluntly speaking, the fear of 'selling out' is so overexaggerated vs how low and inconsequential it really is when someone is seriously trying to make a living in any creative business, it's almost laughable.
I'll say this as clearly as I can. There are more and bigger concerns in the creative business that an artist\craftsperson has to deal with, that appearing as a 'sellout' ranks pretty low in priority.
Show me an artist who puts fear of 'selling out' as their #1 priority, and I'll show you an artist who spent most of their time practicing signing their autographs instead of going to class or honing their craft. Aka, a dilly-tant.
Quote:My concern is that when we aspire culturally for the artistic, we only end up with what's projected to be popular and profitable. In business, this would be expressed as the "acceptable quality" or tolerance, in that we need a reasonably priced product of good enough quality.
You know what a small budget production, and a big budget production have in common? They both still have a budget.
A certain famous computer animation studio, supposedly has a limit of one hour of render time per frame. (Maybe not exact, but I find this very plausible and believable. 24 frames per second, for anywhere between an hour to hour and a half for most feature length animated film. You're probably better at the math, all I know at that point is you gotta draw the line somewhere.)
This studio is considered one of the top studios, and it has a time limit on their render farm for each frame? Madness and philistines right? Except that if they don't put a limit and expect 'perfection' on every single thing, they'd go bankrupt.
The people\company who sells \ lease the computer \ gear \ software has to be paid, and they don't take 'I'm working on great art here, can you spot me for a bit?' as payment. Ditto with the electric bills that powers the render farm. If it's an outsourced render farm, well they need to get paid the same way film processors also needs to get paid.
Same with the artists employed by the studios. They may believe in the project too, but they still need to eat, have a roof to go home to, might even have a family to feed and clothe.
It may or may not surprise you, the top people\studios working at the highest level of artistry and craftsmanship. -Do- use some shortcuts on certain things, especially if they think it will help them do something else they judge to be more important. It's not selling out or cutting back if done properly. It used to be called 'resource and time management'.
Quote: Some like, "Dr. Detroit", lack both, for which I wish there were such thing as a selective memory eraser.
Fran Drescher was great in that. Then again I seriously think she's one hot sexy lady. My hormonal coming of age teen self that grew up before the advent of common and affordable innernets has that movie and her to thank for showing me the lovely female form.
My memory of the movie might be better than the actual movie, but Fran Drescher is love. Fran Drescher, is life.
![[Image: 346991_large.jpg]](http://cineplex.media.baselineresearch.com/images/346991/346991_large.jpg)
Quote:I do a little bronze sculpting. Many of the people I work (share casting facilities) with make their things, then go around to craft fairs, and have a small retail space and seem to be working on being popular to fund their craft hobby. It feels like they're changing their styles to find what is popular, rather than expressing themselves in the medium. I'm sure Shogu would say the same thing happens in the Music industry.
Look I understand the 'find your own style\voice, be authentic' aspect. Yes, it is important.
There is also such a thing as balance, and context. Someone who chose to work in a particular style\genre, is within their right to do so.
On a pragmatic level, many beginners imitate at the basic learning stage. I would imagine even Hemingway as a young child did not suddenly just write a novel out of the blue. He probably learned to read and write the alphabet at one point before hand.
At the end of the day, if someone is already past that basic stage, but they're still just aping something for popularity sake, it won't last long. And really who cares even if that's the case, just do what you are able to control, your own time and resources.
Without getting into a long winded argument on 'but what is...art'. The creative field is not exclusively just about 'expressing yourself'. At the root of it there is also communication. There's the technical\craft\discipline aspect to it as well.
Quote: But, yes, I'm appreciative of your laser focus on Gravity alone.
I want to be clear here, with no sarcasm. My focus is not on that exact movie alone. I'd be the same way if it was My Little Pony: The Movie, or a documentary about the war on terror: Afghan Front.
As long as the participant has seen\read the subject, I'd gladly discuss it with them.
The general section of the Lounge does have a history of informal, sometimes meandering discussions. I'm fine with that. It has led to some informative, and sometimes hilarious discussion and exchanges.
But when it becomes too much of a free for all everything including the kitchen sink, the signal to noise ratio quickly becomes garbled and static.
And yes, I'm also appreciative that you created a new thread so a different topic you wished to discuss can be done so here.
Quote:Anyway, I thought this might be s discussion topic. There is also a looming change coming to higher education, where some "desirable" disciplines will get preferential federal aid.
What? I thought this thread was about Fran Drescher?
Ok fine serious hat on. There's also similar rumblings in where I live, and I think it's short sighted\slowfooted reaction, soundbite politics at best, and not helping much when it comes to actual education.
There does need to be serious talks and discussions, but what can you do about it.
No I mean that literally, what can -you- do that is in your power? I'm not your state governor, I'm not even a citizen of your country. Raising awareness by putting that link is minimal, because like I said I'm dealing with similar attitudes and problems in my area as well. So it's not news to me at least.
What can you do that will get the right people attention exactly? Is there a rep\congressman\councillor that you can write to at least. Maybe a huge stack of -real- letters and testimonials you can produce and drop off 'Miracle at 34th street' court scene style.
More importantly are they from a voting age\block that the elected people then have to pay attention to?
Seriously, what, can you realistically do, that is in your power? It's not an insult, I'm genuinely curious. I have little patience nowadays in hearing about problems of the world and complaints about it, because most people past the mental age of high school Edgy McRebel, already knows the world is not full of sunshine and ice cream 24/7.
I am much more interested in practical ideas and solutions. If you come up with a good answer, I will totally crib it (given your permission of course) because my neck of the woods is also facing similar problems.
RE: Funding arts, humanities, and education - kandrathe - 11-11-2013
(11-10-2013, 08:48 AM)Hammerskjold Wrote: Seriously, what, can you realistically do, that is in your power? ...Personally, I'm connected informally(committee work) to the Office of Higher Education in my state, so I can express myself more locally. I'm connected to the local private college council, so we express a common cause. Federally, I don't know really. They are tone deaf at the moment.
I am much more interested in practical ideas and solutions. If you come up with a good answer, I will totally crib it (given your permission of course) because my neck of the woods is also facing similar problems.
The only thing that has stopped them has been the district and supreme courts. They are bent upon tying funding to "best income for aid dollars", which will cut deeply into most of the liberal arts. And... They are bent on cutting off aid (grants and loans) to schools with either a low graduation rate, or high loan default rate. The latter is not so much a concern for the university where I work, but many schools that serve the poorest, and large populations of minorities are very concerned. They have a very high acceptance rate, and consequently large amounts of students who are provisionally admitted (need to complete pre-college courses, with a C or better for zero credit before probation is lifted).
If the Federal DOE continues in this direction, I can see a day within a decade when federal aid is primarily for STEM, Health Care, Law, and Business.
And, it is not an accident that Princeton University has both the highest graduation rate, and lowest amount of borrowing per student.
RE: Funding arts, humanities, and education - DeeBye - 11-11-2013
(11-11-2013, 02:27 AM)kandrathe Wrote: And, it is not an accident that Princeton University has both the highest graduation rate, and lowest amount of borrowing per student.
Students from rich families don't have to worry about bothersome things like jobs interfering with studying, or cost of tuition.
RE: Funding arts, humanities, and education - eppie - 11-11-2013
(11-11-2013, 05:08 AM)DeeBye Wrote:(11-11-2013, 02:27 AM)kandrathe Wrote: And, it is not an accident that Princeton University has both the highest graduation rate, and lowest amount of borrowing per student.
Students from rich families don't have to worry about bothersome things like jobs interfering with studying, or cost of tuition.
More than a higher standard of education what sets the top universities in the US apart is that they only take the best students......of course they graduate easier.
RE: Funding arts, humanities, and education - kandrathe - 11-11-2013
(11-11-2013, 08:08 AM)eppie Wrote: More than a higher standard of education what sets the top universities in the US apart is that they only take the best students......of course they graduate easier.Yes. The top ivy league schools accept < 10% of applicants, so they have a large pool to select the academic super stars and then also who can afford to pay the hefty price (or get a huge institutional gift).
Imagine any "business" where you can turn away 90% of potential customers who want your product.
To be fair, the Ivy League does recognize the need for diversity, and still they struggle to fulfill it.
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle-to-recruit-smart-low-income-kids