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Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - shoju - 10-03-2012
I'm curious. I keep hearing so much from a subset of people that I know that they will buy Made in the USA over "Made in anywhere else", because it's "Home Done", and what not.
So I'm curious. Does it matter to you where it is made? Especially to those of you who don't live in the US. Does it matter where it is made to you?
For me, I've never cared. I care more about the quality of the product, and I don't automatically discount the quality of a product based on where it was made. I have a feeling that my perspective is colored based on being a musician, and owning several high dollar instruments, and I own them because of the quality not because of the place they were made.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - kandrathe - 10-03-2012
(10-03-2012, 03:34 PM)shoju Wrote: I'm curious. I keep hearing so much from a subset of people that I know that they will buy Made in the USA over "Made in anywhere else", because it's "Home Done", and what not.I try to buy local -- as close to me as is possible to support the businesses in my area. I don't mind much if the price is slightly more, because if they don't succeed I'll be without that local service. But, there are many things we don't make in the USA anymore. So, we have no choice. I also make purchasing decisions based on morality issues -- I can't feel good about buying something made by enslaved children.
So I'm curious. Does it matter to you where it is made? Especially to those of you who don't live in the US. Does it matter where it is made to you?
For me, I've never cared. I care more about the quality of the product, and I don't automatically discount the quality of a product based on where it was made. I have a feeling that my perspective is colored based on being a musician, and owning several high dollar instruments, and I own them because of the quality not because of the place they were made.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Kevin - 10-03-2012
I don't pay a lot of attention to it, because as I understand it, legally the "Made in" branding only requires the final assembly to happen there. So it's my understanding that, say a computer, could be labeled as made in the USA even if the motherboard was made in Tiawan, the processor in Germany, the memory in China, the video card in South Korea, the hard drive in Canada, and the case in Mexico, but since Dell took all those parts and made them into a functioning computer in Texas, that computer was made in the USA.
So for some products trying to track where it was actually made can be tricky. I know for cars there are several sites that you can google for, that track this type of stuff so you can get a simplified idea, like this http://abcnews.go.com/WN/MadeInAmerica/page/made-america-car-american-made-13795239 So you can see that a Toyota Highlander, since they use I think the plant in Tennesse, is credited as 70% American made, while a Ford Focus is only 60% American because many of the components are made overseas or in Mexico. It's over simplified, but it's always the market I think of when these discussions tend to come up. I live near people that have the shotgun racks in the back window and the "I buy Ford/Chevy because I support the USA" and who don't realize that some of those "Damn foreign cars" actually provide more American's with jobs than their American car. Japanese car companies learned that it made sense to local source their products to sell to the worlds largest market, so while corporate profit for Toyota goes to Japan, local jobs and income for a lot of it go to the US and with some of Ford/GM lines you can almost flip that.
Though for some products I do try to get things made closer to where I am for similar reasons as Kandrathe already mentioned. I do like to keep help keep some of those businesses/services available locally and the sometimes higher cost is just the premium paid, which in some cases is buying greater convenience for me. I tend to shop at the grocery store that is closest to my home, even though many of the products I get are 5%-10% cheaper at the Wal-Mart that is across town. Part of that is I like to give Wal-Mart as little money as possible, but the biggest reason is that 3/4 of a mile vs 2 and 1/2 miles is just easier, or healthier for me as I will bike/walk to the close place, but rarely to Wal-Mart (some of that has to do with the roads I'd have to deal with for the longer trek, but most of it has to do with time, 2 1/2 miles can often take more time than I have to not use the car).
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - eppie - 10-03-2012
Depends what products. fruit and vegetables I try to buy from as close by as possible, but living in sweden this doesn't always work out to good as you can imagine, but at least I try to buy local if I have the choice. For other stuff it is a different story. I mean china doesn't make to much good quality shoes and cloths for example, but all electronic stuff comes from there. And in a global economy it is anyway difficult to see if you have something that is really made 100%us for example. do you also look at where the raw materials came from? is job security in your country your main reason for buying local or is it environment and sustainability, or for example labour laws?
Anyway, interesting topic. Good post.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - shoju - 10-03-2012
It came up in discussion for me the other day when a friend came over and we were chatting about music equipment. He "only" plays American Made Fender Stratocasters, and American Made Gibson Les Paul's, and only uses Mesa Boogie Amps, because "Americans are getting over run by other countries because no one buys our stuff."
When he saw my Bass system, he was dismayed, because I use a German Pre-Amp, a British Power Amp, and both of my Basses are made my European Manufacturers.
He was visibly irritated that I didn't have a single "Made in the USA" item except for my speakers.
I was a little surprised really. So I mentioned it to a couple of other people, and realized that they try to buy as American as possible as well.
For Food, I care about how local it is. Most everything else? I just care that it works / fits / does what its supposed to do, and that I'm getting a good bang for the buck so to speak.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - eppie - 10-03-2012
(10-03-2012, 05:27 PM)shoju Wrote: It came up in discussion for me the other day when a friend came over and we were chatting about music equipment. He "only" plays American Made Fender Stratocasters, and American Made Gibson Les Paul's, and only uses Mesa Boogie Amps, because "Americans are getting over run by other countries because no one buys our stuff."
Yeah so for me the reason why people want to buy 'local' or national is important. For me bringing down transportation costs (in CO2) is a very important reason.
So without knowing the friends you are talking about I find their reasoning a bit selfish, especially coming from the home of capitalism (can you get the same quality for a lower price, you just look at the price). If someone that apparently plays 'several stratocasters and Les Pauls' (and so has no money issues) says a thing like that I wonder what his stance is on using Saudi oil for his car.
Furthermore I find it more important how things are produced. Fair trade from other countries is better than child labour in my own.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Mavfin - 10-03-2012
Well, it's nice to buy local if you can, but, I won't buy substandard products just because it's made here, nor will I pay too much premium to buy stuff from here. Also, don't forget, if you want to export, you have to import, too, usually. World trade goes both ways. I'd like something like Tom Clancy's Trade Reform Act to shake up some other countries' tariffs against our merchandise, but, that's just a wish.
(if you don't know what I mean, in Debt of Honor, Congress enacts a law that basically, on activation by the President, will take some country who wants to export to us, but hamstrings anything we try to sell to them, and basically uses their own laws against them when they try to export to us. Mirror-image, so to speak.)
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - FireIceTalon - 10-03-2012
Doesn't make a shit bit of difference to me, and if anything its just another form of nationalism, a social construct, to help sell an item because its "patriotic" to do so, or "unpatriotic" in the case of buying foreign products. "Proudly made in so and so".....makes me kind of want to puke a little bit to be honest, because where a product is made makes little difference on its quality, or the fact somebody's labor was exploited as a commodity to sell another commodity (said product), whether its wage slavery in an American retail store or a Chinese sweatshop. It's really the same horse shit filled logic that reactionaries use when they say race (also a social construct) is a factor that precedes ones intelligence, personality, behavior, thought process, or even culture.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Jester - 10-03-2012
(10-03-2012, 03:34 PM)shoju Wrote: So I'm curious. Does it matter to you where it is made?
No.
Unless the answer is North Korea.
-Jester
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - ShadowHM - 10-03-2012
(10-03-2012, 03:34 PM)shoju Wrote: So I'm curious. Does it matter to you where it is made? Especially to those of you who don't live in the US. Does it matter where it is made to you?
I care. It matters to me.
I try to buy 'Made in Canada' where possible. 'Made in the U.S.A.' is second. I am completely willing to pay a premium for this.
I do recognize that I often cannot do this. This is partly because, as Kevin points out, there is no way to know where all the components for something were sourced. Sometimes this makes me re-consider whether I actually need the item. Sometimes I hold my nose and buy it anyway.
I would rather pay extra for locally grown foods, in particular. Paying (to choose an example) for frozen peas that were bagged in Canada but grown in an environment with no rule-set for how much pesticide was used, or how the workers who grew them were treated and then shipped (using another scarce and polluting resource) here across half the world just doesn't work for me anymore. I would rather do without than pay for that, no matter how inexpensive they seem.
In short, I would rather help make sure that the people I know are employed. And I think we all should.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Jester - 10-04-2012
(10-03-2012, 11:39 PM)ShadowHM Wrote: In short, I would rather help make sure that the people I know are employed. And I think we all should.
Are people you know not employed in export businesses? I don't think it's ever been shown that countries with lower trade % of GDP have higher employment. Certainly the Albertan unemployment rate would go through the roof if we couldn't export oil and gas.
When you import goods, you export local currency, which, by one way or another, has to find its way back to the national economy. I just don't think that trade share has a whole lot to do with employment. Everytime you don't buy something Made in China, that's someone in China (or elsewhere) not buying something Made in Canada.
-Jester
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - ShadowHM - 10-04-2012
(10-04-2012, 12:37 AM)Jester Wrote: Everytime you don't buy something Made in China, that's someone in China (or elsewhere) not buying something Made in Canada.When I import goods, I export local currency. Agreed. Exactly how that will 'find its way' back to my national economy is not clear to me at all.
-Jester
Selling our natural resources wouldn't bother me quite as much if it didn't destroy the environment so thoroughly.
Buying from a country that has (little to no) environmental protection rules or labour protection rules, and hence lower costs just strikes me as exporting a problem today for a loss further down the road.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Alram - 10-04-2012
If I can avoid buying goods made in China I do.
All things being equal I buy made in the USA.
American branded cars tend to be less expensive than their foreign counterparts, and nowadays I think they are just as good.
When I used to fence, the choices in blades were French, Russian, or Chinese. The Russian and Chinese blades were utter crap. The Chinese grips were terrible. French made blades were always the best choice, and there were none made in the USA iirc.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - DeeBye - 10-04-2012
(10-03-2012, 11:39 PM)ShadowHM Wrote: I would rather pay extra for locally grown foods, in particular.
My wife and I absolutely love shopping at our local farmer's market on Saturday mornings. It's a great place with great atmosphere.
We buy our meat from a booth run by an Amish (or Mennonite, I've never asked them) family. The price of ground beef and ground pork is pretty close to what we would pay at a chain grocery store, but it really tastes better. We also buy our bacon there. The bacon is a lot more expensive, but in our opinion it is worth every penny. It just tastes so goooooooooood! They also make their own sausages in various flavours, which we cannot resist. Apple and cinnamon pork sausage? Yes please!
So yeah, I also would rather pay extra for locally produced food.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - LennyLen - 10-04-2012
When I was still living in NZ, I ate locally produced food, and pretty much everything else I bought was imported. Mostly due to pricing though, since the country's primary industry is farming.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Jester - 10-04-2012
(10-04-2012, 02:29 AM)ShadowHM Wrote: When I import goods, I export local currency. Agreed. Exactly how that will 'find its way' back to my national economy is not clear to me at all.
Well, what can you do with Canadian dollars? Buy stuff in Canada. That's it. There's nothing else to use them for.* Either you buy a Canadian product, or hire a Canadian to perform a service for you, or invest in a Canadian company, who uses that money to buy stuff in Canada. You could sell your $CDN on to someone else, but then the same thing would apply to that person.
And, in the exceptional case where a dragon just hoards a gigantic stack of $CDN outside our borders, that money is effectively taken out of circulation, causing our currency to appreciate. But since we have a central bank, they can just neutralize the effects, and nothing happens.
Quote:Selling our natural resources wouldn't bother me quite as much if it didn't destroy the environment so thoroughly.
Oh, I'd be happy to trade Alberta's oil wealth, and the corresponding best-in-the-developed-world employment figures, to prevent the environmental damage. But that's a different issue - we're talking here about the relationship between trade and employment: does buying local mean more local jobs?
Quote:Buying from a country that has (little to no) environmental protection rules or labour protection rules, and hence lower costs just strikes me as exporting a problem today for a loss further down the road.
I would like to see more rigorous reform and enforcement of labour and environmental laws in exporting countries. What I'd like more than that, though, is the first world to liberalize its migration laws, so that these workers were not trapped in their countries of origin, and thus had some bargaining power against their oppressors.
-Jester
*Okay, you can impress stupid people by lighting cigars with them, you can wallpaper your walls, etc... but every time they do that, it's literally free stuff for Canada, imports that require no corresponding export.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - ShadowHM - 10-04-2012
(10-04-2012, 10:55 AM)Jester Wrote: And, in the exceptional case where a dragon just hoards a gigantic stack of $CDN outside our borders, that money is effectively taken out of circulation, causing our currency to appreciate. But since we have a central bank, they can just neutralize the effects, and nothing happens.
Our currency only appreciates if the buyer's currency floats too. That is not the case, AFAIK.
Quote:
Oh, I'd be happy to trade Alberta's oil wealth, and the corresponding best-in-the-developed-world employment figures, to prevent the environmental damage. But that's a different issue - we're talking here about the relationship between trade and employment: does buying local mean more local jobs?
You have still not convinced me that buying locally made items would not keep and/or create local jobs. And it is certain that a personal policy of buying the cheapest product will export the environmental damage. *
I see these issues as intrinsically linked.
Quote:I would like to see more rigorous reform and enforcement of labour and environmental laws in exporting countries. What I'd like more than that, though, is the first world to liberalize its migration laws, so that these workers were not trapped in their countries of origin, and thus had some bargaining power against their oppressors.
I perceive that there is little chance of either of those wishes to come true anytime soon. The 'exporting country' has no interest in my opinions. And while I may have some influence on decisions by my own government, it isn't likely to change soon either.
In the meantime, I intend to keep buying local as much as I can.
*And the lack of environmental or other quality assurance controls can and does mean importing dangerous goods, like tilapia farmed in excessively polluted water, for another food example.
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Jester - 10-04-2012
(10-04-2012, 11:26 AM)ShadowHM Wrote: Our currency only appreciates if the buyer's currency floats too. That is not the case, AFAIK.
What gives you this impression? I'm going to assume China, because they're the only one of our major trading partners without a free-floating currency. About 90% of Canadian imports come from countries with free floating currencies - and the other 10% are coming from China, which is keeping its currency *down*, rather than up, and would be only too happy to see our own currency appreciate. (Which we won't let it do, for fear of losing parity with the US.)
Our largest trading partner by miles and miles is the USA. Our central bank tries to keep the $US/$CDN within certain bounds, but that choice is driven by our own policy preference, which we can hardly blame on anyone else.
Regardless, the trade logic still holds, and if China chooses to hoard Canadian and US dollars, then they're welcome to. Eventually they'll have to release those dollars, and our exports to them will increase.
Quote:You have still not convinced me that buying locally made items would not keep and/or create local jobs.
I'm not sure I'm the one with the case to make, but I've tried as hard as I can - trade works. If we sell our stuff to someone, someone (maybe not the same someone, but someone) will end up buying from us, and vice versa. Think about the alternative extreme case - could we really increase global employment if we broke up all countries into tiny non-trading autarkies? All goods would be bought and sold locally, but it would be disastrous for everyone.
What's the case, accounting for all flows, that says Canada would be better off if we bought and sold only to/from ourselves?
Quote:And it is certain that a personal policy of buying the cheapest product will export the environmental damage. *
Frankly, if we're talking solely about environmental damage, all countries should probably sever their trading relationships with Canada, post haste. We're among the world's worst offenders, in deforestation, in carbon pollution, in the generation of trash and waste. And we, as ethical consumers, should buy from everyone else, rather than ourselves. (Unfortunately, neither of those things would make a lot of difference, for the reasons I already outlined above - exports balance imports in the long run, whether that's 4% of your economy, like the US circa 1905, or 50%, like the UK.)
Quote: In the meantime, I intend to keep buying local as much as I can.
I'm still not seeing the case for why, unless "buy local" is just shorthand for "buy environmentally friendly," or "buy with a social conscience," which, as an Albertan (well, expat) with an environmentalist streak, sounds like a bad joke. Not every locality is better than every other, by definition.
-Jester
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - Hammerskjold - 10-05-2012
(10-03-2012, 03:34 PM)shoju Wrote: I'm curious. I keep hearing so much from a subset of people that I know that they will buy Made in the USA over "Made in anywhere else", because it's "Home Done", and what not.
So I'm curious. Does it matter to you where it is made? Especially to those of you who don't live in the US. Does it matter where it is made to you?
Yes and no, and it depends. The 'When' is also a factor for me. A Japanese made car in it's early days was a bad joke. A Japanese made car in more contemporary times, is no longer a joke. It hasn't been a joke for a while now, and it's probably a sign when a competitor stops laughing and starts cursing. And starts a not so subtle 'patriotic' angle. Or innuendos about enslaved labour etc.
Some American made cars from a certain era like the 50's and 60's, is something I would love to have. Styling wise they look great to me. At the time of this writing, I would not buy any recent North American car brand.
From my own experience at least, the whole NA car maker keeps locals employed angle is, hogwash. I used to go to a school where there was a Ford assembly plant nearby, and I knew many students who wanted a summer job there. Very few got in. They instead got hired by Toyota and Honda. That Ford plant I later learned closed shop and moved to Mexico for more 'competitive labour wages'. Insert eye roll gif here.
Before anyone misunderstands that I somehow advocate Japanese cars are the end all and be all forever and ever. I'll just say that success can breed complacency, and IMO if I were looking to buy a new car right now. I'd give a serious look at the S-Korean brands.
The Indian Tata car (hehe, tatas) looks like a replay of the early Japanese automotive effort to me. I wouldn't buy one now because it looks like a death trap. But if it has safety improvements without adding useless gadgetry (blue tooth compatible jumbo slurpee cup holder with satellite temperature tracking) and a low enough price. It may no longer elicit derisive chuckles.
Put in an plug in ready, robust electric motor and a revolutionary cheap and powerful battery technology. And I'll safely bet that some competitors will be scrambling to yell how unpatriotic it is to purchase a 'furrener made' product. Until they have their own version of course.
Quote:For me, I've never cared. I care more about the quality of the product, and I don't automatically discount the quality of a product based on where it was made. I have a feeling that my perspective is colored based on being a musician, and owning several high dollar instruments, and I own them because of the quality not because of the place they were made.
I'm fairly similar in that view point. IMO it also depends on how far you define 'made in fill in blank'. I don't know the whole detail for every country, but the legal definition \ requirement for a product to have a 'made in' can be, eh, hilarious.
IMO there's a limit on the whole 'PROUDLY Made in the blankety blank'.
What's that Sagan quote, " if you want to make an apple pie from scratch..."
RE: Made in "Your Country Here" ; Is it important to you? - ShadowHM - 10-05-2012
(10-04-2012, 02:17 PM)Jester Wrote: I'm going to assume China, because they're the only one of our major trading partners without a free-floating currency. About 90% of Canadian imports come from countries with free floating currencies - and the other 10% are coming from China, which is keeping its currency *down*, rather than up, and would be only too happy to see our own currency appreciate. (Which we won't let it do, for fear of losing parity with the US.)
China, which is the country I do worry more about than others, is keeping its currency down as a deliberate policy measure to try to make sure that we do purchase products manufactured there. Of course, they have not said that; I may be wrong in that conclusion. That particular country's government has the both the ability and desire to take the long view in terms of making sure our own manufacturing base is (at the very least) weakened.
Quote:Regardless, the trade logic still holds, and if China chooses to hoard Canadian and US dollars, then they're welcome to. Eventually they'll have to release those dollars, and our exports to them will increase.
Exports of what? More natural resources? More of the hewers of wood and drawers of water kinds of jobs for us? Or will they be jobs in the tourist service 'industry'? I worry that eventually we will have no manufacturing jobs of any sort.
Quote:trade works. If we sell our stuff to someone, someone (maybe not the same someone, but someone) will end up buying from us, and vice versa. Think about the alternative extreme case - could we really increase global employment if we broke up all countries into tiny non-trading autarkies? All goods would be bought and sold locally, but it would be disastrous for everyone.
What's the case, accounting for all flows, that says Canada would be better off if we bought and sold only to/from ourselves?
If the playing field were level in international trade, I would agree with you. It isn't now and isn't likely to become so. The rule-set for companies here is not the same as for companies elsewhere. If we bought and sold only to ourselves (or places with similar rules about how to treat employees and how much pollution is allowable), we might be able to maintain a standard of living for all here, instead of increase the disparities between the low-wage-earners and the factory owners and mirror conditions elsewhere.
The long view that I see now is that those dollars will come back to us in ways that will not benefit 'regular' citizens in any way. So, for example, owners of Nexen stock might be rejoicing right now. But I am hard pressed to believe that they might spend their gains in ways that will create jobs for the rest of us.
Quote:Frankly, if we're talking solely about environmental damage, all countries should probably sever their trading relationships with Canada, post haste. We're among the world's worst offenders, in deforestation, in carbon pollution, in the generation of trash and waste. And we, as ethical consumers, should buy from everyone else, rather than ourselves.
I would not argue that we Canucks are doing what we should in terms of carbon pollution or generation of trash and waste. On deforestation, we could do better, but we are not as bad as some. Our laws are more stringent that those of China, for one important example. Companies are not allowed (generally) to pollute the water supplies of others. Additionally, there are teeth in the rules we do have, to make companies that do break the rules have to pay. (Unfortunately, the oil sands are an egregious exception. We don't even know how much pollution we do there, because our beloved government has declined to even find out how much the Mackenzie River basin has suffered.)
Quote:(Unfortunately, neither of those things would make a lot of difference, for the reasons I already outlined above - exports balance imports in the long run, whether that's 4% of your economy, like the US circa 1905, or 50%, like the UK.)
And, as I said, that long run may well include other changes that I don't want to see.
Quote:
I'm still not seeing the case for why, unless "buy local" is just shorthand for "buy environmentally friendly," or "buy with a social conscience," which, as an Albertan (well, expat) with an environmentalist streak, sounds like a bad joke. Not every locality is better than every other, by definition.
My own locality is full of people I know personally, who I would like to be able to make a living, pay taxes and support the social systems I want to have surrounding me. Buying the materials they make keeps the local economy healthy.
I may (and do) feel sorry for the factory workers who are trapped in poor conditions elsewhere in the world, but I still am parochial enough that I want the people I know to do well.
Thanks for the comments. I appreciate your input. And may you have a glorious Thanksgiving weekend, with appropriate feasting, even if you are not 'here' to do it.
P.S. Deebye, if you are reading this still - when/if you drive through the town of Wiarton, check out the small butcher shop called Sullivans (on the main street) for their sausages and smoked bacon.
I will be stopping on my way home from our Thanksgiving gathering to collect a sufficient supply of both to get us through the winter. 