+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Lurker Games (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: Diablo III (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-30.html)
+--- Thread: Stats (/thread-13865.html)
Pages:
1
2
Stats - Concillian - 05-19-2012
This is a work in progress, and we can develop and revise this post to be a sort of guide on stats... at least until the Blizzard guide includes all this stuff. Most of this is not original work of mine, but compiled information from various posts in the Blizzard forums, then reconciled with some rudimentary tests to verify they do in fact seem to work that way.
There are 4 stats
Each stat has a specific defensive function that works the same for every class:
Vitality -- Health
Strength -- Armor
Dexterity -- Dodge
Intellect -- Resist
An important change for Diablo III is that these all work on both spells and physical damage in the same way. That is to say that you can dodge damage from a puddle your standing in or a ranged attack just as you would a melee swing. Also resistance gained from intellect is resist ALL (including physical resist)
In addition, ONE of these stats will also provide an offensive benefit. Which provides an offensive benefit depends on the class:
STR -- Barbarian
DEX -- Monk and Demon Hunter
INT -- Wizard and Witch Doctor
---------------------------
Formulas
---------------------------
Formulas in Diablo and Diablo II were made to bea easy for the computer to understand, and as a result often ended up difficult for people to understand. I guess CPUs have progressed to the point where in Diablo III, Blizzard is comfortable using formulas that are easy for people to understand even if they are a little more computationally intensive for the CPU. In Diablo and Diablo II, they went to great length to keep calculations integer specific. There was a lot of truncating and such. Not true in Diablo III, and as a result the formulas seem to be significantly easier to understand for the average gamer.
---------------------------
Offensive Stat
---------------------------
All offensive stats offer +1% weapon damage per point.
That's it. The whole thing. The rest of this section is examples...
For example:
100 intellect for a Witch Doctor, will modify weapon damage by +100% (double it)
This is a naturally diminishing formula. Each point added makes the next point less effective. To demonstrate this, we can look at one point added when base weapon damage is 100 and Intellect is 100 and 200.
Code:
Base = 100 | INT = 100: 100 * 2.00 = 200 damage
Base = 100 | INT = 101: 100 * 2.01 = 201 damage
201 / 200 = 1.005 -- 1 intellect added 0.5% damage
Base = 100 | INT = 200: 100 * 3.00 = 300 damage
Base = 100 | INT = 201: 100 * 3.01 = 301 damage
301 / 300 = 1.0033 -- 1 intellect added 0.3333% damageThis appears to multiply with base damage and with skill damage:
BASE * INT modifier * SKILL modifiers
It is beyond the scope of this thread to discuss how SKILL modifiers stack with other SKILL modifiers. There is no consensus yet on if this is consistent for all skills across all classes or if these are handled on a case by case basis.
---------------------------
VIT - Defensive
---------------------------
Until level 35:
1 VIT = 10 health
After level 35:
1 VIT = 10 + level - 35 health
This means 35 health per VIT at level 60.
---------------------------
STR - Defensive
---------------------------
1 STR = 1 Armor
Therefore:
Total armor = ( Armor from items + STR ) * Modifiers
As mentioned, Armor mitigates all damage from all sources, which brings up the obvious question... "how much damage does armor mitigate?"
Armor_mit = Armor / (Armor + constant * m_lvl)
It seems a constant of 50 works right, but I'm not sure. For any given attacker level this results in diminishing returns that lead to approximately flat effective health returns. As an example if we look at a level 30 monster hittins someone with 2000 health:
First effective health is the amount of damage (before mitigation) it takes to kill you. EH * (1 - mit) = health
so if mitigation is 25% and health is 2000, then it takes a hit of 2666 to kill you (2666 * .75 = 2000). Some algebra and EH = health / (1 - mit)
500 armor: 500 / (500 + 50 * 30) = 0.25 = 25% mitigation. EH = 2666.7
1st 500 armor gives 666.7 effective health
1000 armor: 1000 / (1000 + 50 * 30) = 0.4 = 40% mitigation. EH = 2000 / 0.60 = 3333.3
2nd 500 armor gives 666.7 effective health
1500 armor: 1500 / (1500 + 50 * 30) = 0.5 = 50% mit. EH = 2000 / 0.50 = 4000
3rd 500 armor gives 666.7 effective health
Etc...
Armor has diminishing returns with itself, but flat returns with effective health.
---------------------------
INT - Defensive
---------------------------
INT is exactly the same as STR, but for resist.
Resist resists everything (including physical) so ... it works pretty much exactly the same as STR. As best I can tell, the formula is also exactly the same, in that 1 INT gives the exact same amount of effective health as 1 STR.
Just re-iterating this:
For effective health purposes 1 STR = 1 Armor = 1 INT
What I don't know yet, it how + %resist work exactly. There is some evidence that it works primarily to amplify the benefit of INT (essentially offering additional EH per point) rather than what intuition might suggest.
--------------------------------------
Interaction of STR and INT - Defensive
--------------------------------------
STR and INT will offer exactly the same EH return per point when they are at the same level (@ 200 armor and 200 INT, 1 point STR = 1 point INT)
However these appear to just multiply each other's damage reduciton, so the defensive value of one improves when you have more of the other.
If armor is stacked sky high (barb with high armor and STR or Monk with high armor and DEX with the passive that gives 1 armor per 1 DEX), then INT is significantly more valuable than armor for defense. Depending on the severity of the imbalance, it can be multiple times better than armor, potentially offsetting the offensive power loss from not stacking more of the primary stat.
---------------------------
DEX - Defensive
---------------------------
DEX gives dodge as it's defensive beneift.
This is the only stat that does not affect effective health. If something can one shot you, more VIT, INT or STR can prevent it from one shotting you if you get enough. More DEX will not. It will offer increasing chances of avoiding the damage entirely, but there will always be a chance you don't dodge and then you die.
Dex is different in that it doesn't have a universal diminished formula, instead it's broken down into linear % improvements such that:
100 DEX = 10% dodge
500 DEX = 20% dodge
1000 DEX = 30% dodge
Every additional 1000 DEX = + 10% dodge
In those ranges everything is completely linear
10% / 100 = 0.1% per DEX below 10% dodge
10% / 400 = 0.025% per DEX between 10% and 20%
10% / 500 = 0.02% per DEX between 20% and 30%
10% / 1000 = 0.01% per DEX at 30+% dodge
------------------------
What's the best defense?
------------------------
Keep in mind that this comparison is based on any given character. You can't compare class against class, since melee classes have a flat 30% damage reduction on top of any other damage reductions.
We'll use the same 20000 health against a level 65 monster to give an example useful for Inferno difficulty. For simplification, we'll use 1000 per hit at a rate of 4 hits per second.
Assuming no damage reduction:
0 DEX = 20 swings you die = 5 seconds to live
(1st) 500 DEX = 4 more swings = 1 extra second to live
500 Armor = 3077 more EH = 0.75 extra seconds to live
500 VIT = 17500 Health = 4.4 extra seconds to live
YOW, VIT is way better.
But what if you have more damage reduction? Isn't there an interaction between EH gain, DEX and VIT?
Okay, lets push each hit down to 800 via armor and say you have 30000 health and 500 DEX to start:
Base time to live = 30000 / 800 = 37.5 landed / 0.9 (chance of landing) = 41.667 swings = 10.42 seconds
add 500 more DEX = 37.5 / 0.8 = 11.72 (~+1.3 seconds)
add 500 more EH stat = +4615 EH = 12.02 (~+1.6 seconds)
add 500 more VIT = +17500 health = 16.5 seconds (+6.0 seconds)
So unless I'm missing something obvious, VIT is always, by far, the best defensive stat at ~4x the value of other stats. This example shows DEX and EH sources reasonably close.
If you assume some leech or +X health per hit adding in health return, then EH and DEX will look much better. Please check and correct, this can't be entirely correct.
RE: Stats - Lissa - 05-19-2012
(05-19-2012, 10:01 PM)Concillian Wrote: So unless I'm missing something obvious, VIT is always, by far, the best defensive stat and DEX is the worst, by far. This seems odd to me that there is so much difference between the various stats. I suppose if you assume some leech adding in health return, then EH and DEX will look much better, but still DEX doesn't seem to be able to hold up to EH at all. Please check and correct, this can't be entirely correct.
This actually makes sense. Due to how diminishing returns works, the more Dex you stack, the less effective dodge you get (as noted, you show in the gradation that you get very little dodge as you add more in -- after 1k Dex, it takes 1k to increase dodge by 10%). Vit doesn't have diminishing returns, 1 Vit = 10 Health no matter if it's the first 10 points of Vit or if it's the 1010, each point of Vit is going to have the same weight. You can see this model in many, many games and it's why in most games where you have some kind of tanking class, the stat that offers you health is typically the highest priority stat with defensive stats (things that affect dodge, parrying, or blocking/absorbing) are then looked at. Ultimately, the more life you have, the more likely you are to last longer in a fight. All that needs to happen is the pRNG screw you once with a low life and high defense and you still will die where as a high amount of health will allow you to survive even when the pRNG screws you.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-19-2012
(05-19-2012, 10:32 PM)Lissa Wrote:(05-19-2012, 10:01 PM)Concillian Wrote: So unless I'm missing something obvious, VIT is always, by far, the best defensive stat and DEX is the worst, by far. This seems odd to me that there is so much difference between the various stats. I suppose if you assume some leech adding in health return, then EH and DEX will look much better, but still DEX doesn't seem to be able to hold up to EH at all. Please check and correct, this can't be entirely correct.
This actually makes sense. Due to how diminishing returns works, the more Dex you stack, the less effective dodge you get (as noted, you show in the gradation that you get very little dodge as you add more in -- after 1k Dex, it takes 1k to increase dodge by 10%).
It has nothing to do with diminishing returns. DEX is universally bad, even when it's at the start of it's curve, it's worse (for defense) than any other stat, and just gets worse from there.
I also don't understand why you're talking about other games as if there is some kind of universal law of gaming physics that health is always the best defensive stat. That's not the case in some games (Skyrim, for example) and brings nothing relevant to the discussion of stat priority for this game. In this game every defensive stat other than DEX does the same thing health does because it universally reduces incoming damage. Not some of one type and none of another as with most games, where armor reduces physical damage and resist doesn't.
RE: Stats - Taelas - 05-19-2012
Dex becomes increasingly *better*, unless my math sucks (which is entirely possible).
Say a boss hits 10 times over 2 seconds. With 20% dodge, you are hit (on average) 8 out of 10 times. With 30%, you are hit 7 out of 10. With 40%, you are hit 6 times out of 10.
8 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 12.5%. 6 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 14.29%. 5 hits vs. 6 hits is even better: 16.67%. Going from 5 hits to 4 is 20% less hits. Assuming you can hit 100% dodge, you become unhittable. I doubt that's possible, though.
RE: Stats - Roland - 05-19-2012
The Vitality formula isn't entirely correct, only I'm not sure why. I don't know if it changes after a certain Vitality threshold, character level, or difficulty level, but my Demon Hunter in Act III of Nightmare gets 20 life per Vitality. I know it used to be 10, so I'll have to do a little testing to see when it changes. Perhaps you gain 10 Life per Vitality in Normal, 20 in Nightmare, 30 in Hell, and 40 in Inferno?
RE: Stats - Lissa - 05-19-2012
(05-19-2012, 11:04 PM)Concillian Wrote:(05-19-2012, 10:32 PM)Lissa Wrote:(05-19-2012, 10:01 PM)Concillian Wrote: So unless I'm missing something obvious, VIT is always, by far, the best defensive stat and DEX is the worst, by far. This seems odd to me that there is so much difference between the various stats. I suppose if you assume some leech adding in health return, then EH and DEX will look much better, but still DEX doesn't seem to be able to hold up to EH at all. Please check and correct, this can't be entirely correct.
This actually makes sense. Due to how diminishing returns works, the more Dex you stack, the less effective dodge you get (as noted, you show in the gradation that you get very little dodge as you add more in -- after 1k Dex, it takes 1k to increase dodge by 10%).
It has nothing to do with diminishing returns. DEX is universally bad, even when it's at the start of it's curve, it's worse (for defense) than any other stat, and just gets worse from there.
Because the only two classes that are going to be looking at using Dex are the Monk (HtH) and DH (ranged). Dex is not something that really a Barbarian nor a WD or Wizard are going to be looking to get because it doesn't affect them. Because the two main classes that use Dex, one's ultimate goal is to keep out of melee combat (look to Evasive Fire and Vault on the DH) and the other has skills based around improving dodge (Mantra of Evasion along with the Passive The Guardian's Path while dual wielding) and can use Dex in the place of Str for Armor (Passive Seize the Initiative). As such, it makes sense that Dex doesn't add too much to your dodge chance. A Monk running with Mantra of Evasion and The Guardian's Path in one of the Passive slots and dual wielding has 30% base dodge before even looking at Dex. This means a Monk with 1000 Dex has 60% dodge with the above two skill active. So, there's definitely a reason.
Quote:I also don't understand why you're talking about other games as if there is some kind of universal law of gaming physics that health is always the best defensive stat. That's not the case in some games (Skyrim, for example) and brings nothing relevant to the discussion of stat priority for this game. In this game every defensive stat other than DEX does the same thing health does because it universally reduces incoming damage. Not some of one type and none of another as with most games, where armor reduces physical damage and resist doesn't.
Getting off topic for just a second, last time I checked, Many/Most does not equal All. There are a large number of games out there that follow this same kind of mantra that Diablo 3 is running where overall Health is more likely to save you than any other defensive skills.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-19-2012, 11:33 PM)Taelas Wrote: Dex becomes increasingly *better*, unless my math sucks (which is entirely possible).
Say a boss hits 10 times over 2 seconds. With 20% dodge, you are hit (on average) 8 out of 10 times. With 30%, you are hit 7 out of 10. With 40%, you are hit 6 times out of 10.
8 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 12.5%. 6 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 14.29%. 5 hits vs. 6 hits is even better: 16.67%. Going from 5 hits to 4 is 20% less hits. Assuming you can hit 100% dodge, you become unhittable. I doubt that's possible, though.
DODGE gets increasing returns, but DEX does not.
100 DEX = 10% dodge
500 DEX = 20% dodge
1000 DEX = 30% dodge
2000 DEX = 40% dodge
So going from 10% to 40% nets you 33% less damage taken (6 instead of 9 hits out of 10), but costs you 1900 DEX instead of 100 DEX. The return for the stats goes south fast, especially considering 1900 VIT is a whole crapton of health.
RE: Stats - Taelas - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 12:52 AM)Concillian Wrote:(05-19-2012, 11:33 PM)Taelas Wrote: Dex becomes increasingly *better*, unless my math sucks (which is entirely possible).
Say a boss hits 10 times over 2 seconds. With 20% dodge, you are hit (on average) 8 out of 10 times. With 30%, you are hit 7 out of 10. With 40%, you are hit 6 times out of 10.
8 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 12.5%. 6 hits vs. 7 hits is a reduction in hits taken of 14.29%. 5 hits vs. 6 hits is even better: 16.67%. Going from 5 hits to 4 is 20% less hits. Assuming you can hit 100% dodge, you become unhittable. I doubt that's possible, though.
DODGE gets increasing returns, but DEX does not.
100 DEX = 10% dodge
500 DEX = 20% dodge
1000 DEX = 30% dodge
2000 DEX = 40% dodge
So going from 10% to 40% nets you 33% less damage taken (6 instead of 9 hits out of 10), but costs you 1900 DEX instead of 100.
Dex still gets increased returns within the different tiers, since it increases at a linear rate until the tier changes. Above 1000 Dex, every point of Dex increases your dodge% by exactly the same percentage.
Between 0 to 100 Dex, 1 point of Dex is worth more at 99 than it is at 1. At 100, it changes to a new standard, but each point is still worth exponentially more than the previous.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-19-2012, 11:47 PM)Lissa Wrote:(05-19-2012, 11:04 PM)Concillian Wrote: It has nothing to do with diminishing returns. DEX is universally bad, even when it's at the start of it's curve, it's worse (for defense) than any other stat, and just gets worse from there.
Dex is not something that really a Barbarian nor a WD or Wizard are going to be looking to get because it doesn't affect them.
It does affect those classes though. They gain dodge from it.
People (especially people who play in hardcore) are looking at how they can most effectively reduce damage. It's important to understand what *all* the stats bring to the table, not just their primary stat.
Depending on how the armor and resistance reductions interact, it's very possible that a barbarian will get significantly more defense from +INT than from the same amount of STR or Armor. Why wouldn't someone also look at DEX as a potential alternative?
I mean once you do the math it looks like it's a really, really bad option, but you can't know that until you do the math. This is how we figure out what the best options are.
Quote:Getting off topic for just a second, last time I checked, Many/Most does not equal All. There are a large number of games out there that follow this same kind of mantra that Diablo 3 is running where overall Health is more likely to save you than any other defensive skills.
I guess I just don't understand why other games are even brought into the discussion. Very few people know the Diablo III mechanics. We're in a discovery mode. Nobody has any kind of intrinsic knowledge of the mechanics. It seemed kind of out of left field and having no real point. Especially the part about a tanking class? All classes are going to get hit, everyone needs to be at least somewhat concerned about their defenses.
RE: Stats - Roland - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 01:08 AM)Concillian Wrote: Depending on how the armor and resistance reductions interact, it's very possible that a barbarian will get significantly more defense from +INT than from the same amount of STR or Armor. Why wouldn't someone also look at DEX as a potential alternative?
One thing to note is that in Nightmare your resistances are halved. If you look on the Character Screen, under Details, if you have 20% resistances when you hover your mouse over them it will state 10%. I imagine it is further halved in Hell, and perhaps again in Inferno? Not 100% sure at this point (I'm only in NNM Act III). So, in that sense +STR and +Armor seem to be the best options by far for non-caster classes. Armor reduces damage flat out from all sources, and does not suffer penalties in at least Nightmare.
Essentially, all stats are useful in some sense, just more than others. As a Demon Hunter I've prioritized Vitality over all else, with Dexterity coming in second. I sit around 30% damage reduction from Armor and about 28% Dodge chance (can't remember my Int / Resistances offhand). I'm still "squishy" in that I take fairly large amounts of damage (for perspective, NM Belial dealt between 2k and 3k with his arm attacks, and over 7k with his bomb attacks; I have over 12k life at present), but between my high life pool and my decent armor and dodge percentages I consider myself fairly survivable.
Maybe now I can test out when Vitality changes. At least I'll know if it's based upon difficulty level or Vitality level. I can't go back in levels, so I won't know when it changes if it's based on character level, but I can certainly say it does change.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 01:34 AM)Roland Wrote: One thing to note is that in Nightmare your resistances are halved. If you look on the Character Screen, under Details, if you have 20% resistances when you hover your mouse over them it will state 10%. I imagine it is further halved in Hell, and perhaps again in Inferno? Not 100% sure at this point (I'm only in NNM Act III). So, in that sense +STR and +Armor seem to be the best options by far for non-caster classes. Armor reduces damage flat out from all sources, and does not suffer penalties in at least Nightmare.
Well that is interesting.
I checked out 5k armor and 100 INT vs. inferno level monsters (level 65) and this is what I came up with. This was not taking into account what you just mentioned here about difficulty level reducing resistances:
38.2% reduction
Add 100 armor = 37.8% reduction (1.2% better)
Add 100 INT = 37.1% reduction (2.9% better)
The gap will widen with high armor. At that point INT is over double the defensive value of STR for a barbarian, however, if resistance is quartered. then they are going to be more in line with each other in terms of point for point value for a barbarian, but for any other class STR will be the best defensive stat outside of VIT.
So most classes will want STR + VIT items for best defense.
I guess I need to look into monk mechanics, because he would appear to have significantly lower EH than a barbarian unless there is some kind of class mechanic that adds some flat mitigation that barbarians do not have. Based on this, it looks like barbarians are by far the easiest to gear for high EH. Monk dodge will certainly help, but if he can't take 2-3 hits in a row, he's going to splat no matter dodge% (except 100%), leech or healing involved.
RE: Stats - Lissa - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 01:08 AM)Concillian Wrote:(05-19-2012, 11:47 PM)Lissa Wrote:(05-19-2012, 11:04 PM)Concillian Wrote: It has nothing to do with diminishing returns. DEX is universally bad, even when it's at the start of it's curve, it's worse (for defense) than any other stat, and just gets worse from there.
Dex is not something that really a Barbarian nor a WD or Wizard are going to be looking to get because it doesn't affect them.
It does affect those classes though. They gain dodge from it.
People (especially people who play in hardcore) are looking at how they can most effectively reduce damage. It's important to understand what *all* the stats bring to the table, not just their primary stat.
Depending on how the armor and resistance reductions interact, it's very possible that a barbarian will get significantly more defense from +INT than from the same amount of STR or Armor. Why wouldn't someone also look at DEX as a potential alternative?
I mean once you do the math it looks like it's a really, really bad option, but you can't know that until you do the math. This is how we figure out what the best options are.
You're missing the point though. Having a high health is going to trump most situations in this game, thus Vit should be more important that the other stats for survival. 3 of the classes do not want to be in hand to hand, they're not designed that way while the 2 others are designed to be in hand to hand. So, with only 2 of 5 classes being in melee, Blizzard (rightfully IMO) decided to make dodge less important while making other aspect more important to assist those two classes and play to the other 3 ranged classes. This is why Vit becomes more useful than Dex (Dodge).
Barbarian, WD, and Wizard are only going to be interested in minor amounts of Dex, just enough to get that first or second tier, even in hardcore. Dex to them is going to be a waste of stat points when their primary stats and vit are going to be more useful for their survival, especially given that the only two classes that really want to be in melee range is the Barbarian (Str) and Monk (Dex) and we've already seen that Monk has skills to improve their Dodge to 3 effective tiers.
This is why, to me, it makes sense to have Dex not be as useful for classes that don't use it as a primary stat (and why the two classes that do use it don't need to look at Str because one will be at range and the other will have a passive that boost their armor based on their Dex).
Quote:Quote:Getting off topic for just a second, last time I checked, Many/Most does not equal All. There are a large number of games out there that follow this same kind of mantra that Diablo 3 is running where overall Health is more likely to save you than any other defensive skills.
I guess I just don't understand why other games are even brought into the discussion. Very few people know the Diablo III mechanics. We're in a discovery mode. Nobody has any kind of intrinsic knowledge of the mechanics. It seemed kind of out of left field and having no real point. Especially the part about a tanking class? All classes are going to get hit, everyone needs to be at least somewhat concerned about their defenses.
Let me ask you this, how much of Diablo and Diablo 2, especially hard core, did you play? In both games, Vit was the major survival stat. Blizzard likely continued down that same path with Diablo 3 where Vit was the major surviability stat. Blizzard, likely, wasn't looking to reinvent the wheel when it came to Diablo 3 with respect to how the stats function.
RE: Stats - Lissa - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 01:48 AM)Concillian Wrote:(05-20-2012, 01:34 AM)Roland Wrote: One thing to note is that in Nightmare your resistances are halved. If you look on the Character Screen, under Details, if you have 20% resistances when you hover your mouse over them it will state 10%. I imagine it is further halved in Hell, and perhaps again in Inferno? Not 100% sure at this point (I'm only in NNM Act III). So, in that sense +STR and +Armor seem to be the best options by far for non-caster classes. Armor reduces damage flat out from all sources, and does not suffer penalties in at least Nightmare.
Well that is interesting.
I checked out 5k armor and 100 INT vs. inferno level monsters (level 65) and this is what I came up with. This was not taking into account what you just mentioned here about difficulty level reducing resistances:
38.2% reduction
Add 100 armor = 37.8% reduction (1.2% better)
Add 100 INT = 37.1% reduction (2.9% better)
The gap will widen with high armor. At that point INT is over double the defensive value of STR for a barbarian, however, if resistance is quartered. then they are going to be more in line with each other in terms of point for point value for a barbarian, but for any other class STR will be the best defensive stat outside of VIT.
So most classes will want STR + VIT items for best defense.
I guess I need to look into monk mechanics, because he would appear to have significantly lower EH than a barbarian unless there is some kind of class mechanic that adds some flat mitigation that barbarians do not have. Based on this, it looks like barbarians are by far the easiest to gear for high EH. Monk dodge will certainly help, but if he can't take 2-3 hits in a row, he's going to splat no matter dodge% (except 100%), leech or healing involved.
Not really when you think about how the classes are played and what kind of skills they have. Due to Seize the Initiative, a Monk is going to keep stacking Dex because with StI, your Dex effectively becomes Str for armor purposes. Likewise, Wizards, WDs, and DHs are going to get out of melee as quickly as possible as they all have movement skills. So, only really for a Barbarian is Str going to be an optimal stat to choose after Vit for survival.
RE: Stats - Roland - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 01:48 AM)Concillian Wrote: Well that is interesting.
What's more interesting is that it's NOT halved. It's some other formula. Currently my 18 resistances give me 6.97% resistance against level 47 enemies - significantly less than what one would expect, and definitely not halved. I'm not sure what the formula is, but like Armor and Dodge I imagine character level ties into the formula. I.e. as you gain in levels, for an equal level of Armor / Dexterity your damage reduction and dodge chances will go down. It's also worth noting that, now at 47, each point in Vitality grants me 22 Health, whereas at 45 it was 20. So it definitely seems to be based around character level, and not Vitality thresholds. For completeness, 868 Dex grants me 27.36% dodge, and 931 Armor grants me 28.38% reduction.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 03:10 AM)Roland Wrote: What's more interesting is that it's NOT halved. It's some other formula. Currently my 18 resistances give me 6.97% resistance against level 47 enemies - significantly less than what one would expect, and definitely not halved. I'm not sure what the formula is, but like Armor and Dodge I imagine character level ties into the formula. I.e. as you gain in levels, for an equal level of Armor / Dexterity your damage reduction and dodge chances will go down. It's also worth noting that, now at 47, each point in Vitality grants me 22 Health, whereas at 45 it was 20. So it definitely seems to be based around character level, and not Vitality thresholds. For completeness, 868 Dex grants me 27.36% dodge, and 931 Armor grants me 28.38% reduction.
18 resist should give 7.11% reduction at level 47
18 / (18 + 5 * 47) = 0.0711
If you really have 17.6 resist (176 INT) and it's rounded up, then it would give 6.97% reduction at level 47. That's probably what's happening there. I don't see any halving. Looks right where it should be.
931 armor matches exactly with 28.38% at level 47
868 DEX also matches with 27.,36 % dodge (500 is 20% and 368 *0.02 = 7.36%)
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 02:13 AM)Lissa Wrote: Not really when you think about how the classes are played and what kind of skills they have. Due to Seize the Initiative, a Monk is going to keep stacking Dex because with StI, your Dex effectively becomes Str for armor purposes.
Well, like I said, I needed to look up monk mechanics. This indeed shows that monks will gain EH just like a barbarian at the cost of a passive slot.
However since it looks like Roland is wrong about the resist halving in nightmare, INT will be a very viable defensive stat for either class, it's looking to offer more than double the effective health defensive benefit per point when compared to their primary stat because they'll be so "lopsided" stacking armor *and* their primary stat.
Quote:Likewise, Wizards, WDs, and DHs are going to get out of melee as quickly as possible as they all have movement skills. So, only really for a Barbarian is Str going to be an optimal stat to choose after Vit for survival.
You have a "softcore minded" approach, I get that. I'm trying to approach the interaction of these stats from a more general approach. I can see where a hardcore DH, Wiz, or WD might want to explore the option of a non-traditional stat to provide additional damage reduction. You can't always get items with the best possible stat allocation (especially in hardcore). It may not be the optimal configuration, but that doesn't mean someone won't be curious about the comparison.
RE: Stats - Jester - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 07:22 AM)Concillian Wrote: It may not be the optimal configuration, but that doesn't mean someone won't be curious about the comparison.
This.
Also, let's all remember that this isn't WoW anymore. We can play variants once again, without being a burden on everyone else. Someone might build a character on weird rules just for the hell of it. Probably not for the first while, but almost surely by the time the game is a year old. The information we get now will let us build interesting characters later.
-Jester
RE: Stats - Kevin - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 07:22 AM)Concillian Wrote: You can't always get items with the best possible stat allocation (especially in hardcore). It may not be the optimal configuration, but that doesn't mean someone won't be curious about the comparison.
This is exactly right. I've already used this thread to help choose between some gear on my WD.
Also there are quite a few WD skills that require you to be in close. I'm only 35 with my HC doctor but looking at it I'd say at least half of the WD skills are useless if you don't get in close. There are mods on mobs that make getting in close make more sense than trying to stay at range. So I don't just grab the highest DPS gear I can get. I'm always looking at the tradeoff between survival and damage and I've run into high strength high int gear and I'm currently wearing high int, low vit gear. Now I can easily see if I'm getting more EH from the str, or if going up to the higher armor level and dropping a bit of int gives me enough to survival returns to be worth it.
I absolutely care about what str, dex, armor, and vit do for my WD. With the way some skills work, it might even be true that a build focused on defensive stats and the short range skills could do more DPS than a high damage stat long range skill build because of the high base skill damage and the self buffs that require you to be up close and personal. I haven't tested on that yet though, but first blush makes it seem possible.
RE: Stats - Lissa - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 07:22 AM)Concillian Wrote: [quote='Lissa' pid='196281' dateline='1337479998']
Not really when you think about how the classes are played and what kind of skills they have. Due to Seize the Initiative, a Monk is going to keep stacking Dex because with StI, your Dex effectively becomes Str for armor purposes.Quote:Well, like I said, I needed to look up monk mechanics. This indeed shows that monks will gain EH just like a barbarian at the cost of a passive slot.
However since it looks like Roland is wrong about the resist halving in nightmare, INT will be a very viable defensive stat for either class, it's looking to offer more than double the effective health defensive benefit per point when compared to their primary stat because they'll be so "lopsided" stacking armor *and* their primary stat.
[quote]Likewise, Wizards, WDs, and DHs are going to get out of melee as quickly as possible as they all have movement skills. So, only really for a Barbarian is Str going to be an optimal stat to choose after Vit for survival.
You have a "softcore minded" approach, I get that. I'm trying to approach the interaction of these stats from a more general approach. I can see where a hardcore DH, Wiz, or WD might want to explore the option of a non-traditional stat to provide additional damage reduction. You can't always get items with the best possible stat allocation (especially in hardcore). It may not be the optimal configuration, but that doesn't mean someone won't be curious about the comparison.
It doesn't have to be optimal. You're commentary shows you are complete throwing to the wind other stats that are out there that would better increase survivability then grabbing stats that won't be that helpful. You've forgotten things like +XX health from health globes, +Y Life per hit, and +Z health per kill. Those kinds of stats are far and away going to be more useful that stepping into situations where you grab a stat this is absolutely useless for your class. Simply, you're limiting your scope on survival and looking at (suboptimal) base stats instead of looking at the larger picture of other stats that can increase survivability.
You also seem to forget one of the tenets of Diablo as well for survivability, a good offense is sometimes the best defense. Stats that also increase your damage output means there is less time for mobs to be attacking you and then brings into the effect of +Z health per kill.
Right now, IMO, you're thinking in a very constrained box and looking at just aspects of stats while not looking at other aspects for survivability. You need to break out of that box first and start looking at the more general picture involving all stats that we're seeing in the game instead of just base stats.
RE: Stats - Concillian - 05-20-2012
(05-20-2012, 03:18 PM)Lissa Wrote: It doesn't have to be optimal. You're commentary shows you are complete throwing to the wind other stats that are out there that would better increase survivability then grabbing stats that won't be that helpful. You've forgotten things like +XX health from health globes, +Y Life per hit, and +Z health per kill.
You're right. In a thread about VIT, STR, DEX, and INT stats I'm only talking about VIT, STR, DEX, and INT.
