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Inception Ponderings (Spoiler warning) - Sheep - 08-06-2010
I recently went to see Inception in theaters without any real idea of what it was about, and no expectations. I was quite simply blown away by the entire package.
Later that night, however, a few niggling questions surfaced that I can't seem to figure out. Perhaps Lurkers who paid more attention or have seen the film multiple times can help?
I found this graphic to be helpful for setting up a frame of reference for discussion.
1. When Yusuf backs the van off the bridge in the second level, the kick is supposed to wake everyone in the third level. The first kick fails, of course, because the team is not awake in the third level at that time. Why doesn't Arthur wake up and go from 3 to 2, as he doesn't have a buffer?
2. The whole Limbo level doesn't seem to quite gel with me. If a dreamer is sedated, and dies in the dream, they descend to limbo instead of waking up. However, once in limbo, Saito and Cobb kill themselves to awaken. Why does this work? Are they not still sedated in the first level in the plane? Furthermore, when Mal kills Fischer in level 4, should he not have awoken in level 3 instead of descending into limbo? Or are they using the same sedative-laced formula to dream each time?
3. Level 2 is Yusuf's dream, level 3 is Arthur's, and level 4 is Eames'. What role, then, does the architect play? Is she an actual architect who designs the maze and explains it to each dreamer so they can create it? Or does she play a more active role during shared dreaming?
4. As stated above, each level is the dream of a different team member. Why, then, are Robert Fischer's subconscious projections the only ones there? Shouldn't each person bring their host of Sub Cons, or is he somehow given priority? In either case, Cobb's projections (Mal comes to mind) are able to manifest, while the other team members' are strangely absent.
I'll leave it at that for now, and eagerly await your ideas and explanations!
RE: Inception Ponderings (Spoiler warning) - Hammerskjold - 08-06-2010
Spoiler alert warning warning
robot arms flailing danger danger will robinson!
(08-06-2010, 05:55 AM)Sheep Wrote: I recently went to see Inception in theaters without any real idea of what it was about, and no expectations. I was quite simply blown away by the entire package.
Later that night, however, a few niggling questions surfaced that I can't seem to figure out. Perhaps Lurkers who paid more attention or have seen the film multiple times can help?
I found this graphic to be helpful for setting up a frame of reference for discussion.
1. When Yusuf backs the van off the bridge in the second level, the kick is supposed to wake everyone in the third level. The first kick fails, of course, because the team is not awake in the third level at that time. Why doesn't Arthur wake up and go from 3 to 2, as he doesn't have a buffer?
Maybe this is just me, but when the Fischer heist part of the movie started, I think it's the plot device equivalent of the Penrose infinite loop staircase that was shown earlier in the film. Or the scene with Ariadne playing with the mirrored doors.
Quote:2. The whole Limbo level doesn't seem to quite gel with me. If a dreamer is sedated, and dies in the dream, they descend to limbo instead of waking up. However, once in limbo, Saito and Cobb kill themselves to awaken. Why does this work? Are they not still sedated in the first level in the plane? Furthermore, when Mal kills Fischer in level 4, should he not have awoken in level 3 instead of descending into limbo? Or are they using the same sedative-laced formula to dream each time?
Iirc, it was something to do with the multi-tiered dreams and super sedative the chemist uses to make that possible. I'm guessing the death in limbo will awake you is because it loops back from the lowest to highest level, like a moebius strip. Waking up by 'death' in limbo might be harder than it sounds because from the way Cobb described it, in limbo you are in such a vivid state of dreaming that you'd have the same sense of self preservation in real life. Assuming you want to live etc.
Or maybe the basement below limbo is out of order, so they kick you back out to the ground floor of reality? ;P
Quote:3. Level 2 is Yusuf's dream, level 3 is Arthur's, and level 4 is Eames'. What role, then, does the architect play? Is she an actual architect who designs the maze and explains it to each dreamer so they can create it? Or does she play a more active role during shared dreaming?
IIRC, she did design a lot of it (quick scene of her with some architectural models of a cityscape with Arthur if my memory is right). She also went over it with Arthur, she told Eames about the route that cuts through something faster during the snow fortress scene.
Just off my head here, she did go over a lot of stuff with the various heist team, but Cobb said something about not wanting her to divulge too much to him. I'm not sure if that meant only to him, or all the team members. Eames had to be told where that emergency route was, and that was after Cobb asked her if she had something like that in her designs.
So my interpretation, an architect doesn't need to be in the active shared dreaming part. She insisted in going with the team because she discovered that Cobb might have serious problems controlling his sub conscious.
Quote:4. As stated above, each level is the dream of a different team member. Why, then, are Robert Fischer's subconscious projections the only ones there? Shouldn't each person bring their host of Sub Cons, or is he somehow given priority? In either case, Cobb's projections (Mal comes to mind) are able to manifest, while the other team members' are strangely absent.
Fischer's subcons are there I think because they're going into his territory, and he received mental defense training etc. The rest of the heist team sub-cons are assumed to be in check by their owners.
Cobb's subcon, ie: Mal, and the train out of nowhere early in the abduction level, are there because (my interpretation anyway) he's losing control.
Quote:I'll leave it at that for now, and eagerly await your ideas and explanations!
I've read a bunch of interpretations (after I saw the film and formed my own interpretation) and there's a lot of interesting ones, with various degrees of plausibility. The fun or frustrating part is Nolan gives enough clues and ambiguity to support almost all of them.
Some of the more interesting ones IMO is the meta\allegory angle. (read it on CHUD) That one says that the film is about making film. Cobb is the director, the point man is the producer, Eames is the actor, Yusuf is the technical wizard, Ariadne script writer (though personally I think she'd be closer to cinematographer and set designer) and Saito the big money bankroller.
Some film enthusiasts have called cinema the closest thing to an awakened dream state. And going to the movies is the closest thing to a shared dreaming experience we could have right now. But that might be too meta at times.
My personal interpretation, everything from the beginning was real and can be taken at face value until the moment where Mal shows up and is about to shoot Fischer in the snow fortress scene.
From there it branches to different interpretations depending on how I feel at the moment.
- Mal shoots Fischer. Fischer descends into limbo. Even after Ariadne gets Fischer out, the mission is full of fail because Fischer's mind did not take the limbo experience well. Inception did not take. Mal stabs Cobb and everything afterwards is just Cobb dreaming and stuck in limbo.
- Everything was still 'real', even after Mal shoots Fischer. Fischer was succesfully rescued in limbo by Ariadne, the inception took and succeeded. (This is mostly because I feel Nolan handled the emotional closure\arc of Fischer's inception really well.)
Cobb finally confronted and dealt with his guilt\projection of Mal, got Saito out of limbo*, but at the cost (or maybe reward) of staying in limbo himself. He no longer cares whether or not it's a dream or reality, he's just happy to be able to see his kids faces again. So a bit of a bittersweet ending at best, a phyrric victory at worst.
* If I'm feeling more pessimistic, I'd say that everything from where the team woke up on the plane was Cobb's limbo dream. Saito's mind would probably not be able to handle the shock of getting out of limbo after such a (perceived) long time, especially considering he's not that experienced compared to the rest of the team.
In Cobb's mind the first thing Saito does after waking up is to make that important phone call. In reality, everyone but Saito and Cobb wakes up in the plane. Saito is 'awake' but not really functioning in the normal sense. Cobb, is now a drooling vegetable in all outward appearance at least.
Though all of my rambling above is only a variation of one simple question that I think Nolan slyly posed in the end.
Do you think the spinning top fell down, or stayed spinning?
Kinda like that short story about 'The Lady Or The Tiger'. For me, because of my personal outlook I'd probably pick the Tiger because I tend to believe that the doors actually contains 2 tigers, it's just that the other tiger is named 'Lady'*.
*Incepted by a Simpsons episode.
All in all, I found it an enjoyable movie.
RE: Inception Ponderings (Spoiler warning) - Sheep - 08-19-2010
(08-06-2010, 04:12 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote: Some of the more interesting ones IMO is the meta\allegory angle. (read it on CHUD) That one says that the film is about making film. Cobb is the director, the point man is the producer, Eames is the actor, Yusuf is the technical wizard, Ariadne script writer (though personally I think she'd be closer to cinematographer and set designer) and Saito the big money bankroller.
Some film enthusiasts have called cinema the closest thing to an awakened dream state. And going to the movies is the closest thing to a shared dreaming experience we could have right now. But that might be too meta at times.
Don't forget that Fischer represents the audience, for whom the entire production is being put together.
Quote:Cobb finally confronted and dealt with his guilt\projection of Mal, got Saito out of limbo*, but at the cost (or maybe reward) of staying in limbo himself. He no longer cares whether or not it's a dream or reality, he's just happy to be able to see his kids faces again. So a bit of a bittersweet ending at best, a phyrric victory at worst.
[...]
Do you think the spinning top fell down, or stayed spinning?
I find most interesting the contrast between the last scene with the top and a similar, earlier scene where Cobb is testing whether he's dreaming with his totem. In the earlier scene, he waits, gun in hand, ready to kill himself to escape if he is indeed in a dream. At the end, however, he doesn't even bother to watch the totem before going to see his children.
I personally think that the top fell down, but that Cobb doesn't care either way, as he's finally back with his kids.
Whether or not the top falling down means he isn't dreaming is up for debate. When Mal was trying to convince Cobb that he was dreaming by enumerating the inconsistencies of his reality, such as faceless corporations hunting him across the globe, it really struck me that the film itself makes dream-sense. As long as it's going, it's perfectly understandable and coherent, but once you're looking back on it, there are a few points that are never really explained: examples of fridge logic.
Is Cobb actually a corporate spy? Would this career really result in a price on his head? Is Saito truly powerful enough to clear Cobb's name with a single phone call?
RE: Inception Ponderings (Spoiler warning) - Hammerskjold - 08-19-2010
(08-19-2010, 07:52 AM)Sheep Wrote: Don't forget that Fischer represents the audience, for whom the entire production is being put together.
Ah yes, good point. I think it was either in the CHUD article or somewhere else, where it makes a similar case of Fischer=audience concerning his story arc. Although he knows the snow fortress is not real, the emotional journey he takes is real. Ie: just like when we watch a movie that interests us, it can hook us in etc.
Quote:I find most interesting the contrast between the last scene with the top and a similar, earlier scene where Cobb is testing whether he's dreaming with his totem. In the earlier scene, he waits, gun in hand, ready to kill himself to escape if he is indeed in a dream. At the end, however, he doesn't even bother to watch the totem before going to see his children.
I personally think that the top fell down, but that Cobb doesn't care either way, as he's finally back with his kids.
Yeah, I think that was the most important part if we just focus on the emotional part of Cobb's journey.
Quote:Whether or not the top falling down means he isn't dreaming is up for debate. When Mal was trying to convince Cobb that he was dreaming by enumerating the inconsistencies of his reality, such as faceless corporations hunting him across the globe, it really struck me that the film itself makes dream-sense. As long as it's going, it's perfectly understandable and coherent, but once you're looking back on it, there are a few points that are never really explained: examples of fridge logic.
Yeah, absolutely. The popular opinions that I've seen so far ranges from:
-Cobb entered the dream world when he sampled Yusuf's super sedative, and never woke up from that point on. (The top he spun was interrupted by Saito coming in iirc.)
-The Mumbasa scene, the walls squeezing in, the faceless corp thug, Saito rescuing Cobb just in the nick of time, can mean that it's dream world, but can also mean that's when Cobb shows us he's aware at some level something isn't right. Which means he actually entered dream world earlier.
My personal interpretation at the moment at least, is Mal's projection is voicing his doubt but really expressing his eroding ability to keep it together.
The following is a bit of a stretch here I know but I'm a visual pun kinda guy. The train out of nowhere= train of thoughts running out of control.
(aside from the other significance of the train revealed later near the end with Mal)
Quote:Is Cobb actually a corporate spy? Would this career really result in a price on his head?
Assuming everything else of the technology and their world we saw was true, I'd say yeah. Cobb can definitely earn a price on his head, aside from the false murder charge. Industrial espionage\theft\sabotage at that high a stake, sure.
Quote:Is Saito truly powerful enough to clear Cobb's name with a single phone call?
There's one interesting theory I read. Saito is the one hired by Mal's father (Michael Caine) to incept the idea in Cobb's mind, to wake up and face reality. Cobb in limbo all this time (what were seing on screen) to escape his guilt of Mal's suicide.
Interesting, but personally I find it way too left field and a bit too forced.
It's possible that Saito was bluffing, considering if he is that powerful, Tom Berringer's character (Fischer's god father\right hand man\second in command only to Fischer jr. etc) should have recognized him in that lobby scene. Assuming that the monopoly they were after deals with that high of a power level, the players should at least have some sort of passing knowledge of their rivals. Kinda doubtful that they could get to that level of power without knowing the competition.
But again, it's possible Saito was bluffing. IIRC he did say near the beginning to Cobb he's not offering a guarantee.
edited addition:
Have you seen this one? Kinda humourous.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-inception-rippedoff-scrooge-mcduck-theory-that,43814/
RE: Inception Ponderings (Spoiler warning) - the Langolier - 08-20-2010
(08-06-2010, 05:55 AM)Sheep Wrote: 1. When Yusuf backs the van off the bridge in the second level, the kick is supposed to wake everyone in the third level. The first kick fails, of course, because the team is not awake in the third level at that time. Why doesn't Arthur wake up and go from 3 to 2, as he doesn't have a buffer?
Actually, the kick from the van backing off the bridge isn't supposed to wake everyone up. It was supposed to be a jolt that was strong enough to feel in all the levels of dreaming. It served to give the dreamers a cue as to how long they had in their respective dream states to return to the first level of dreaming.
A few seconds of free fall in the van gives Arthur a few minutes in the hotel and the rest of the team over an hour. They explain this when developing the plan. Later, when the characters acknowledge the kick mid-dream, they remark about how much time they have before they must wake up. Arther checks his watch; once he sets up the kick for the other dreamers, he counts down in the elevator before he must blow the charges to simulate falling. IIRC correctly, the jolt at the snow fortress causes an avalanche and Cobb tells the team they have an hour to get Fischer into the vault with his father.