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Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - goldfish - 06-06-2003
I should know. I am a lawyer. I graduated from a great school and work as a litigation associate at one of the top firms in the country. Boy, do the hours suck.
For the first few months, it was not so bad. I got to review documents, not the most exciting work, but 9:30-7 kind of hours, with maybe one Saturday a month. Ahh, those halcyon days . . .
Then came motion practice -- the work was much more interesting, but also required more hours -- for a period of about 2 months, I worked probably every other weekend, and stayed past midnight 1-3 times a week. It was rather roller-coaster-like -- i.e., a motion had to be in on a certain date, and it was craziness before that, and much more relaxed after. And that was not cushy, but tolerable.
What followed was the descent into hell. I have been putting together depo prep books on numerous witnesses. That means that I look over tens of thousands of pages of produced documents for each witness, to try to find documents s/he will be asked about at the deposition. With the depositions approaching, the schedule was incredibly tight. (Also, motion practice continues throughout this stage, so I get interrupted every 3-4 days with an urgent assignment). During this stage, staying past midnight is the norm, and it's the rare night (sometimes 1 a week, occassionally 2, generally none) that I leave before midnight.
It's not just me. The team is incredibly understaffed and everyone is crushed by the work. I ended up doing one assignment on my own (with a 2-day deadline) which another attorney was supposed to be helping on (because it was originally deemed too big for one person to do in time) after the other attorney had a separate major disaster which came up.
And I don't even have it the worst. Another attorney here, getting ready for a trial, has worked over 10 hours a day, every day for over a month, without a letup.
Bottom line, I think these kind of hours are not sustainable over the long run without significant negative consequences to one's health and / or family life. However, they are what is expected at high-end law firms.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - channel1 - 06-07-2003
But, it will all be worth it.
Someday, after 30 years of beating your brains out, you will retire to a rustic estate in the country, where you will raise organic cabbages in an enviroment of peace and well-being.
Or, you could give up on the lawyer-biz, and move into a country shack, where you can raise organic cabbages while fighting off bugs, weeds and creditors.
-rcv-
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - kandrathe - 06-07-2003
Yeah, it could just be that the soul sucking sound is your job. I know many ex-lawyers who have gone on to lead productive and even meaningful lives. In fact, my brother in law is one. He burnt out after about 10 years fighting corporate greed, then started his own software company. In fact, he built his own house on a little plot of land in Wisconsin, and grows organic apples.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - DaethWalker - 06-07-2003
Actually, I don't see a problem.
Or, I should say, I don't see a problem that is either new or limited to working as a lawyer.
I'd say at least 50% of all businesses are understaffed and their employees overworked.
Over my lifetime I've put in 16-20 hr days and have even worked straight through working as much as 32 hrs with about a 4 hr break.
Depending on the job, I was also often away from home for months at a time.
Most of the better paying jobs I had averaged 16 hr work days as the norm, not the exception.
But, many people work just as hard or harder for minimum wage. They may only put in 30 hrs a week per job, but might actually work at 2-3 different jobs.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - wundergore - 06-09-2003
goldfish,Jun 6 2003, 11:25 PM Wrote:I have been putting together depo prep books on numerous witnesses. I would think that you would use paralegals for the grunt work such as this. Wouldn't it be more cost effective for your client to have a paralegal who bills less than an attorney perform these kinds of tasks? I know that's the kind of work i do here, and while this is not one of the top firms in the country, it's still a very good firm.
Those types of hours are expected at most litigation firms, high end or not, if you want to make your clients/Partners happy (especially for 1st year associates). Now it's a different story if you work a cushy corporate legal job............ :D
W>
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - Occhidiangela - 06-09-2003
When CEO's of big companies get bonuses, it is often the stockholders/directors rewarding them for being able to squeeze more blood out of a rock. Your partners are basically your stockholders and your board, and so have the 'stockholder' view of money outlay against produce, in your instance successful cases, sold on the market. Fewer successful cases means less repeat future business.
It's sems to me a simple calculus.
Wundergore's comments on paralegals may or may not represent an inefficiency in your office, but when you look at it, a paralegal costs as well. It's yet another issue of managing the billable hour. When you lose a lawyer to burnout, you also lose his 'corporate knowledge.'
My best wishes that you don't go crazy. :)
PS: some day over a beer, I might wax poetic about doing more with less on a ship at sea when there are no spare parts and you get no replacements for experienced engine mechanics, but that is a different sector that the one you are working in.
EDIT: oops, hit post instead of preview the first time. Sorry.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - goldfish - 06-09-2003
wundergore,Jun 9 2003, 11:58 AM Wrote:I would think that you would use paralegals for the grunt work such as this.Oh, we use the para's all right. Without them, it would be even harder. But we still have to attorney-review all of the pages.
. . .
Now it's a different story if you work a cushy corporate legal job.
Example--Secnior associate tells me "I need a depo book for Witnesses X, Y and Z"
I have the para's print up a copy of every page we have produced with these witnesses' name on it (as sender, recipient, subject, etc).
Para's drop 30 boxes in my office. Okay, 30 boxes is a lot for 3 witnesses. Maybe 20 boxes -- between 50,000 and 60,000 pages.
I review these pages (yippee!), trying to find anything that the witness might get asked.
(Anything in another language goes to translation at this stage)
I "bucketize" them (drop them into basic categories), and the para's chron them, and de-dupe (i.e., often a duplicate is produced, such as if it's an e-mail from X to Y, it will show up in both of their files. Electronic documents are de-duped by computer first -- sort of -- but paper docs have to be de-duped by the para's).
Para's assemble the binder from the papers I give them. It might consist of 100 or 150 hot docs, or at least hot enough to ask the witness about before the deposition.
Rinse and repeat. :D
I know, it's what litigators do. And it's part of the leveraged system wherby partners make money by having associates do more work.
Oh, and our corporate associates? They have very little to do now (unlike 2-3 years ago). In fact, litigation groups draft non-busy corporate associates for document review.
Well, I'm back to work.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - wundergore - 06-09-2003
Sounds like you are at least using some kind of document management system (summation? or concordance?). At least you have that going for you. I work in a very low tech firm :blink: One of the things i miss about working for a larger firm: they have all the latest toys.
W<
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - wundergore - 06-09-2003
Occhidiangela,Jun 9 2003, 05:19 PM Wrote:When CEO's of big companies get bonuses, it is often the stockholders/directors rewarding them for being able to squeeze more blood out of a rock. Your partners are basically your stockholders and your board, and so have the 'stockholder' view of money outlay against produce, in your instance successful cases, sold on the market. Fewer successful cases means less repeat future business.True and not true. In the type of firm that I work in (and the type I suspect Goldfish works in), both paralegal and attorney ("timekeepers") are expected to generate more revenue than what is expended in their salaries. In the last firm I worked at, the attorneys were expected to generate 3x their salaries in billable time (I think). That's a pretty big number when you may have a six or seven figure salary. I figure that I was generating about $15K/month for that firm in billable hours. Imagine what the attorneys were billing. Kinda scary that much cash being passed around.
It's sems to me a simple calculus.
Within the firm it's not neccessarily how good a lawyer you are, but how many hours you can bill. I knew some piss poor attorneys that didn't know jack (all they did was go to depositions and do nothing) and were still very well paid; all becuase they were able to bill a staggeging amount of hours. Now with the clients, the win/loss record does have an impact. But even then, it's not all cut and dried. How do you justify keeping a firm on retainer that cost you a hundred million dollars in a judgement? You pray they do better on the appeal or they are doing much better work on other cases.
Ah, the joys of mass tort. I kinda miss it. :lol:
And I didn't mean to imply any ineffceincy on the part of Goldfish's firm. Some places don't utilize paralegals as much as other firms (also it can depend on the client how much involvement paralegals have; some like the attorney to handle every little detail).
W>
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - Occhidiangela - 06-09-2003
'Generate business.'
Gee, go figure, we live in a litigous society thanks to folks having to make that house payment. Cases are worked and raised just to keep the billable hour count up there. Any wonder where frivolous law suits come from? They come from our system.
Here in South Texas, the ambulance chasing has reached the point to where we are losing doctors due to the inability to sustain their malpractice rates. It aint funny, at all.
My younger brother works in the City attorney's office in San Francisco, and it sounds as though he does something similar to what you mention: keeping track of all of that damned correspondence, as well as some research to support the over worked attorney's there who don't get paid by billable hour . . . but who face those who do in court.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - Swarmalicious - 06-09-2003
Hi,
Excuse me please if I sound grumpy. I was born into an extremely low income, chemically dependant, cockroach & food stamp filled background, and admittedly tend to judge high-income folks unfairly. Sorry for the self-righteousness.
With that said - umm... tough teet, buddy. It must be so difficult to score the kind of money needed for an education in law and then to make "6 or sometimes 7 figures". If you don't like it, quit.
Try laying blacktop all summer.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - goldfish - 06-10-2003
Six or seven figures? Well, the partners sometimes make seven -- according to the American Lawyer's list, the top firms have average pay per partner at around $3 million (Wachtell), it drops off very fast from there, outside of the top 10 firms I'm not even sure if it's $1 million average. (Note that the AmLaw list is average partner pay. Actual figures per partner are not disclosed. Since firms have more junior and more senior partners, the highest-paid can make upwards of $4 or $5 million, while other partners make less than the average).
As for associates, my firm (along with every other big firm in New York, except Skadden) pays 125 starting, and a yearly bonus which varies but may be 10k or 15k. Skadden pays 140 starting, but no bonuses. So it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. These numbers aren't any big secret, as they are generally reported in the New York Law Journal, AmLaw, and on sites like findlaw.com.
I don't know anyone's billing rate exactly, but it is widely known that senior partners at top firms bill out at $500-$600 per hour. New associates bill out at $150-200. Everyone else is in between.
The theory is "leverage." A partner cannot earn $3M or $5M a year at a $500 / hour rate. Even if they bill 2500 or 3000 hours, that's 3000 x 500 = $1,500,000.
However, the firms have a ratio of 2.5 or 3 associates per partner.
Associate numbers (ballpark guess):
Salary + bonus 140k
Overhead 70-80k? (Secretary, computer, office, training, bar membership fees, plus absorbed cost of any pro bono).
Total cost maybe 220k (I'm not sure exactly how much overhead is. I've seen numbers but i can't recall them right now).
Billiing at $150 / hour times 2200 hours = $330,000 income.
So, the firm makes $110k on that associate.
Add a few hundred more, rinse and repeat.
(Actually, from what I've read, the training costs are high enough and clients able enough to force billing reductions for new associates that a lot of firms lose money on first-years, they then start earning it back and the 3rd and 4th year associates, and so on, make the most money for those firms).
And, I'm back to work. :(
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - Baylan - 06-10-2003
Hello Swarmalicious!
I must agree with you, although I'm in a very nice neighborhood now in my earlier years of life I was in a very crime infested community with a low family income. While I doubt it was as bad as it seems yours earlier life was by your description; compared to the lives that some of my friends now have lived, anything on the South side of Chicago would seem like a "ghetto" to them. My mother managed an apartment complex in Blue Island, Illinois (don't pronounce the S!!! :P) and got her fair share of death threats as well as a lot of hard work. Many times I'd end up painting apartments that needed it with her so that we could get a few extra dollars to go do something special on the weekend (I was pretty young at the time though, 7 or 8). My father is no slouch either when it comes to the hard work department. For many years he worked construction for lack of a high school diploma and his attitude reflects on me.
Its rubbed off as well, as a football player I am one of the hardest workers you will ever see off the field. I take a class - Advanced Conditioning Football, and Wednesday last week our coach decided to have us run instead of the scheduled work with the offensive and defensive groups. We ran ladders in the gym to an extent where I went outside on the way back down the ladder and vomited; when I returned to the class they were wrapping up and I decided that I needed to finish the ladder. I did. I then proceeded to go back outside and vomit a few more times but it was well worth it when I saw the people who had come in late and not gotten any running done. I don't know what it is but I love the work, I love the effort, I in a strange kind of way like the pain. I guess I'm getting a bit off topic now but one thing that always has, and always will peeve me, is when someone wants to do something but they don't want to work at it.
-Baylan
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - tufchic - 06-10-2003
yes i understand perfectly what you mean. i've worked for lawyers all tolled 17 years over the span of my career either as litigation assistant-paralegal or as a bookkeeper.
i can say the abuse of the bigger firms to their young associates is too much to be believed. they also horribly burn out their staff too. i recall many a time soaking my wrists from the swelling from having had to type for so long without a break. it got so bad, i finally had to go on disability and change careers.
if you would like a break from the grind with some time for a life, let me suggest that you go with a smaller firm. they may pay less but it is well worth having a life in exchange.
you might also want to try either being a public defender or JR DA. there is also federal public work. i hear those folks go home at 5 p.m. again, the pay is less. you can also try your own practice. you have less life with a private practice but you control your own destiny. many women also have done "part-time" associate work to be home with their kids. "part-time" means that you go home in time to pick up children if you have them and you are required to work less billable hours. i don't see why a man couldn't work "part-time."
also having been around lawyers 17 years plus, i can say that not all of them are pigs so it's ok if some of you want to do that. just be aware of what you are getting into esp. when working for one of the bigger firms. try to avoid them wherever possible. the money is not worth the toll it is on your personal life.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - TaMeOlta - 06-10-2003
:P I would thoroughly enjoy threatening someone with my Lawyer AKA Goldfish !! ;)
"Believe me ! You don't wanna make this guy mad !!"
EDIT: finally got around to spelling "enjoy" correctly - hows that for procrastination ? :blink:
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - wundergore - 06-10-2003
tufchic,Jun 10 2003, 03:52 AM Wrote:also having been around lawyers 17 years plus, i can say that not all of them are pigs so it's ok if some of you want to do that. just be aware of what you are getting into esp. when working for one of the bigger firms. try to avoid them wherever possible. the money is not worth the toll it is on your personal life.I think most young (read as "new") attorneys gravitate toward the larger firms is due to the $$ involved. It's the only way they can pay off the loans they take to go to law school! Not all of them do, and not everyone scores a decent paying job with a larger firm. Most of the high end firms (at least as I understand it from talking with some attorneys) tend to want the "cream of the crop" of the graduating law students.
I don't really know that "hanging your own shingle" is a way to cut down on the amount of hours worked. It's very tough to make it as a private practice. I have a friend that is going that route (with another buddy of his). It is truly feast or famine for them. He says it's been a good learning experience, though. He never thought he would spend all that time in law school to be a bill collector.............. :lol:
Having worked as a paralegal for both large and small firms, I'm of mixed feelings. I like having all the support benefits of the large firm (high tech, training, etc), but I dislike the regimentation that goes along with that. So do some of the other paralegals that I've talked to. Working with a small firm is nice, but I miss the high tech goodies.
Finally, most of the lawyers I've worked with have been pretty cool. I can only think of a couple of real trolls. :P
W>
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - tufchic - 06-11-2003
wundergore,Jun 10 2003, 02:01 PM Wrote:I don't really know that "hanging your own shingle" is a way to cut down on the amount of hours worked. It's very tough to make it as a private practice. I have a friend that is going that route (with another buddy of his). It is truly feast or famine for them. He says it's been a good learning experience, though. He never thought he would spend all that time in law school to be a bill collector.............. :lol:True one does learn in starting a business the pit-falls that come along with it. The feast or famine though should be easily cured by marketing. It's a business like everything else. You need to let others know you are out there.
It did reduce my hours going into my own business. No longer did I have to be forced to stay late. I didn't have to do what a boss said to do, I could do what I said to do. That's really the freedom I was talking about. It's also a responsibility especially if you have employees that need you to make payroll, etc. But I don't know too many private practice working until midnite everyday. Maybe a few week-ends every now and then during trials.
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - Tal - 06-11-2003
goldfish,Jun 6 2003, 06:25 PM Wrote:I should know. I am a lawyer. I graduated from a great school and work as a litigation associate at one of the top firms in the country. Boy, do the hours suck. And this is the reason why I didn't pursue law any further than getting certified as a paralegal. Go figure - I ended up a Public Librarian. :P I have the utmost respect for those who did stay the course and got their law degree.
Bottom line, I think these kind of hours are not sustainable over the long run without significant negative consequences to one's health and / or family life. However, they are what is expected at high-end law firms.
Regards,
-Tal
Mamas, don't let yore babies . . . - ShadowHM - 06-11-2003
You really have gotten me thinking, goldfish. :) Not so much about lawyers and their work, but on the 'mamas, don't let yore babies' part.
Would I want my sons to become lawyers? Would I encourage them to head in that direction if they told me that was what they wanted?
I don't really want to 'steer' them in any particular direction. And yet ...
I have found myself doing some of it anyway. I think it must be something that mothers are compelled to do. :o The bottom line is that we want them to be happy and self-sufficient, but at the same time we think we have insights as to what will make that happen for them.
My eldest has one more year of high school to go. He has a definite mechanical bent (things he takes apart and puts back together again actually work). He does reasonably well at math and sciences. His drama teacher tells me he has a flair for acting, stage management and directing. (Who knew I could produce such an offspring?) I don't want to preclude him from going any direction he desires, in terms of careers.
And yet ...
In these days, a career is not the same thing as it used to be. A series of 'careers' is more like reality. To add another wrinkle to the fabric, the cost of an education has skyrocketed, at least here in Canada. I managed to escape university life with an M.B.A. and a mere $10,000 of debt. Tuition has risen considerably in the intervening years. I would not be surprised to hear that your education debt is MUCH higher than that.
So, with that in mind, I have suggested he take a look at learning to be a tower crane operator/repairer. It is a wonderful job for a young man. Demand is high and supply is very low. The pay is remarkable. The travel opportunities are equally remarkable. It is certainly something I think he could do well. Self-employment and stability are certainly possible.
More importantly, the 'cost' of finding out whether this is right for him is minimal, compared to the cost to you of finding out now, should that be the case, that you really don't want to be a lawyer.
Enough rambling! The short version really is: "Thanks for making me take some time to think." :)