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The Matrix - Jeunemaitre - 05-29-2003
Pete,May 28 2003, 05:04 PM Wrote:Also there is the fact that the heat is only one aspect of the situation. The maximum thermodynamic efficiency of any heat engine is related to the ratio of the temperatures of its hot and cold reservoirs. So, a hotter running engine has a higher potential efficiency than a cool one. BY comparison to the temperature available if the fuel is burned directly, the human body is pretty cold. Heat flows from high temperature to low. To pump heat from low temperature to high takes energy. So this adds to the inefficiency of the process.Leave it to somebody with a psychology degree to be trumped by thermodynamics. I guess I didn't take enough physics to remember upstream transfer along gradients requires energy. Pete, you win.
Interesting thought on the master-servant relationship, but if Smith (a mid management program) realized he could disobey his code and fail to return to the source, then it'd surprise me that no higher AI realized that it could disobey a directive to serve. I guess to me the energy explanation was more plausible. Of course I may just be willing to suspend my disbelief more easily (or maybe I'm just gullible)...
The Matrix - --Pete - 05-29-2003
Hi,
Pete, you win.
Wasn't competing, just discussing. That way we all win :)
Interesting thought on the master-servant relationship, but if Smith (a mid management program) realized he could disobey his code and fail to return to the source, then it'd surprise me that no higher AI realized that it could disobey a directive to serve.
Well, first of all I haven't really put much effort into that idea. It was just one of those "If I had to do it, how would I start" thoughts. So there's probably a lot of holes in it. Since it doesn't negate any fundamental laws of the universe, it is (IMO) a better starting point than what ended up in the movie.
But, to consider your objection, we need to accept that AI programs are like people. They have some basic drives (akin to survival and propagation in humans), some secondary drives (akin to the desire for wealth, security, comfort in humans). And there is a range of these drives that varies between "individuals". Some people start out different, others become different as a result of experiences. We have our sociopaths, our psychopaths. We have people for whom life means less or even nothing.
Now, Smith disobeying his code is like a person breaking a law. But an for an AI to "disobey a directive to serve" would be more akin to a person ceasing to breath. I'm not postulating that the AI has a directive to serve, I am postulating that the basis of existence for the AI community as a whole is to serve.
And Smith hasn't (you'll notice) selected not to serve. He has just changed the rules under which he serves.
But, of course, all this is wool gathering since that was not the story the Matrix is based on.
--Pete
The Matrix - Mark - 05-30-2003
I've read most of the posts here and almost everyone assumes the writers of this script have defined the "real" world. From watching the second movie I'd say, Zion, is just a another level of the Matrix. Did anyone else notice how the living quarters of Zion closely resembled the giganctic matrix hubs where men and women perpetually swim in their vats of pink goo. They both spiraled down into infinity around a cylindrical structure.
The last scene of the movie adds substance to my theory. At first I thought the other ship emp'd the sentinels that were about to attack the four remaining humans but perhaps Neo figured out that Zion-world is just another level of the Matrix and he chose to bend the rules here too. How else could Smith imprint himself onto a human (Cain) unless he was just moving around programming. It would be a cool trick for the machines to convince the humans who rejected the initial control into accepting another form as long as they had a war to fight, and maintain their sense of struggle.
This makes you wonder, how many levels are there?
One poster on another board suggested that the Oracle gave Neo upgrades, in the form of a cookie (first movie) and candy (second movie) allowing him to progress upward in the levels of the matrix (increasing his control). Now he is broad thinking enough to realize that Zion-world is also unreal. Though I hate to think of Keanu as broad thinking. ;)
Pehaps the matrix is a contrivance of humanity to protect them from something? Death? Nuclear winter? Long term space travel? The machine has just taken over, refusing to give up control until now, and random events, (bit flipping, divine providence) will allow Neo to break out.
That's what I thought after one vieiwing. If I'm am correct, the constant back and forth about the realism of the various plot contrivance is moot. We haven't seen a representation of reality yet.
Mark
The Matrix - --Pete - 05-30-2003
Hi,
I'd say, Zion, is just a another level of the Matrix
Very possible. That's something that is strongly hinted at in the final scene (as you said). But somewhat disappointing if true, since that has been done a few times before.
However, the truth does not matter. The acceptance of the truth does. When Morpheus gives Neo the explanation of the Matrix and reality, Neo must either accept it or reject Morpheus as unreliable. Had Neo (unlike the authors) known any fundamental science, he would have rejected the BS that Morpheus was spouting and the film would have been very different. Thus, even if "reality" is really just another level construct, it must be a realistic construct to be accepted.
Of course, you could then argue that the first level Matrix teaches people warped science so that they'll accept an incorrect explanation of the second level Matrix and so forth. Again, possible, but crappy story telling. That's akin to "And it was all a dream", or "And then a miracle happened". There must be an internal consistency, an internal realism (but maybe not that of our "reality") or the story dissolves into nonsense, little more than a conveyance for special effects. Which, of course, may actually be the case.
How else could Smith imprint himself onto a human (Cain) unless he was just moving around programming.
Sorry, this does not support your argument. Nor does it contradict it. But there are a number of ways this could happen, some of which have already been described in this thread. What happens in the matrix is "real" to the people in the Matrix (the degree of reality being inversely correlated to the degree of control a person has -- thus most people killed in the Matrix actually die. But Neo has more control than that). So, if you look at Smith "imprinting" himself into Cain as Smith imprinting attitudes into Cain's avatar in the Matrix in such a way that the attitudes become real to Cain, then you can see one way in which what happened in the Matrix can influence reality.
If I'm am correct, the constant back and forth about the realism of the various plot contrivance is moot. We haven't seen a representation of reality yet.
No. You are confusing "realism" with "reality" and they are not at all the same. For instance, an historical novel may portray the period with great fidelity and present characters and situations which are entirely plausible. It may also be a total fabrication. It would have a high degree of "realism" but would have no "reality". So, there are certain implied rules of what goes on in the Matrix, and as long as those rules are followed, the story is realistic. There are certain (different) implied rules of one level "up" from the Matrix (whether that is truly reality (whatever that may be) or not) and the same applies to them. So discussions of the "realism" of the movie is valid even if the reality of any level is in doubt.
--Pete
The Matrix - LiquidDamage - 05-31-2003
Mark,May 30 2003, 08:10 AM Wrote:The last scene of the movie adds substance to my theory. At first I thought the other ship emp'd the sentinels that were about to attack the four remaining humans but perhaps Neo figured out that Zion-world is just another level of the Matrix and he chose to bend the rules here too.I see no reason to say that the "real world" must be another Matrix, as I can think of other (more interesting) explanations for Neo's actions at the end, and Smith's little trick.
The first thing I thought when Neo stopped the sentinels was, "He can affect the machines outside of the Matrix, because his mind is actually a sort of missing link for their programming". Neo didn't freeze them in mid air like he does with bullets, they emitted electricity like how most sci-fi movies show robots short circuiting. All we saw was his power over the sentinels, there was no demonstration of power over anything beyond those machines in the "real world".
This doesn't rule out the idea of the "real world" being a Matrix of its own, but until I see Neo fly, punch through solid concrete, or dodge/stop bullets outside of the Matrix, I'm going with "he has power over the machines".
I feel I should mention that Neo is the only version of "The One" to have lived past the choice the Architect confronted him with. They may do something with that-- perhaps he will continue to learn new abilities that the others were not around long enough to explore. This control over the machines may actually be the result of his decision not to return to the source, as he now has a greater understanding of how he relates to the machines.
The Matrix - Taem - 05-31-2003
Had a few thoughts I thought I'd share:
In the first movie, The Matrix, Morpheus got his ass handed to him on a platter by an agent. Now that they've "upgraded" the Agents (i.e. faster and stronger then the older agents)... he can fight them one on one and somewhat hold his own? Not only that but on a moving truck? And WIN!?!
Did it not seem to you that most of the people of Zion were approximately 30? And black? LoL... and athletic? They looked like people who eat Wheaties every morning, steak and potatoes every night, etc.
Do you think that the Council (who - as stated by someone at one part of the movie - are all "older people") is made up entirely of those original humans? And do you think they all know the truth?
First and formost, when Neo uses the EMP from his own hands at the end, obviously, you can't do that in the real world. But also take into account what you see when neo faces the architect in the room with all the TV screens. It shows all sorts of scenes from neo's life, INCLUDING ONES WHERE HE IS ABOARD THE NEBUCHADNEZZAR. There he stands, shaved head, burlap shirt, OUT OF THE MATRIX. To me, that says only one thing: there has to be multiple matrixs'
Check out this link to see how impressed hackers were with Trinity's breaking and entering sequece:
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/4831
The Matrix - WarBlade - 05-31-2003
MEAT,May 31 2003, 08:16 PM Wrote:Had a few thoughts I thought I'd share:And lose actually.You might recall he gets his arse handed to him again despite his own 'upgrade' in the form of a sword. Fortunately Niobe arrived in the nick of time to prevent him getting sqished like a bug when he fell off the truck. They then manoevred to the front of the truck where Morpheus was able to launch a surprise counter-attack catching the Agent unawares. ;)
In the first movie, The Matrix, Morpheus got his ass handed to him on a platter by an agent. Now that they've "upgraded" the Agents (i.e. faster and stronger then the older agents)... he can fight them one on one and somewhat hold his own? Not only that but on a moving truck? And WIN!?!
Quote:Did it not seem to you that most of the people of Zion were approximately 30? And black? LoL... and athletic? They looked like people who eat Wheaties every morning, steak and potatoes every night, etc.
Australian extras versus your local demographics on obesity . . . I dunno, they looked pretty normal to me. ;)
Quote:Do you think that the Council (who - as stated by someone at one part of the movie - are all "older people") is made up entirely of those original humans? And do you think they all know the truth?
No, they've just been around a little longer. Oh and extras casting is a funny business that tends to have a little influence on the end product. ;)
Quote:First and formost, when Neo uses the EMP from his own hands at the end, obviously, you can't do that in the real world. But also take into account what you see when neo faces the architect in the room with all the TV screens. It shows all sorts of scenes from neo's life, INCLUDING ONES WHERE HE IS ABOARD THE NEBUCHADNEZZAR. There he stands, shaved head, burlap shirt, OUT OF THE MATRIX. To me, that says only one thing: there has to be multiple matrixs'
Even that can be explained away. With the Architect's attention focused on Neo's progress there's, no reason why he can't use Neo's interface to pick up a little extra data for his own studies. Alternately, Persiphone's kiss might be something . . . There are plenty of guesses that spring to mind.
We'll see though. November might bring the answer to that one.
The Matrix - ithil - 06-01-2003
WarBlade Wrote:MEAT Wrote:Do you think that the Council (who - as stated by someone at one part of the movie - are all "older people") is made up entirely of those original humans? And do you think they all know the truth?
No, they've just been around a little longer. Oh and extras casting is a funny business that tends to have a little influence on the end product. ;)
I wonder... has anyone counted them? The Architect mentioned how many people were used to found Zion.
The Matrix - Taem - 06-01-2003
There are suppose to be 32 original people. When I get the DVD I'll count the council members :D
The Matrix - FenrisWulf - 06-01-2003
23 original people, wasn't it?
The Matrix - LiquidDamage - 06-01-2003
ithil,May 31 2003, 06:39 PM Wrote:I wonder... has anyone counted them? The Architect mentioned how many people were used to found Zion.Shouldn't matter. Morpheus claimed that they had survived for 100 years. Since Morpheus doesn't know about the multiple-Zion thing, that means this version of Zion has existed for around 100 years.
Do the council members look 100 years old?
The Matrix - ithil - 06-01-2003
Maybe people age well in 2199. :->
The Matrix - WarBlade - 06-01-2003
If you believe The Architect, the year might even be in the 2500 - 3000 bracket. :unsure:
The Matrix - ithil - 06-01-2003
Yeah, but their medical tech would still be in 2199.
The Matrix - LiquidDamage - 06-02-2003
ithil,Jun 1 2003, 02:18 PM Wrote:Yeah, but their medical tech would still be in 2199.I'd say their medical tech is a combination of ~2099 equipment (Morpheus says they've been out for 100 years, and thinks it is 2199, so likely he is extrapolating from dates on their equipment, like the Nebuchadnezzar) and stone age resources, with some 2099 knowledge and some 1999 knowledge. I highly doubt they have had much chance to improve any sort of technology since they are constantly fighting a war. So they just combine what they can find with what they learned in the Matrix.
Remember Morpheus's speech? They don't even have PA systems.
The Matrix - Occhidiangela - 06-06-2003
Finally saw it.
A few ideas.
1. Why does Neo go for saving Trinity and not for the refounding of Zion, given the choice that the Architect presents?
He is human, which a machine is not. He can choose, and he only needs his own reasons to do that. This is consistent with the ideas they toss about regarding choice.
2. Why the phone? I like it, and I think it's an inside joke about internet connections from the writers, though I do like a few of the ideas you all have put forward, in terms of nodes in the matrix and how to access them.
3. Smith = zero and Neo = One is the best idea I have seen for what makes the two of them so unique: they are the controlling variables in the system.
4. Why are the humans plugged into the matrix?
Purpose, which is so bluntly spelled out in Matrix 2. Machines and humans, and their symbiotic relationship, are mentioned in the films now and again. The machines, if they want a non repeatable world to exist within the Matrix, need the human's non digital and very random neural impulses to react to machine stimuli in order to keep things in the Matrix from merely being a constantly repeated loop. VAriety that is internaly consistent is what the machines are programmed to create so that the humans can 'live.' Also, machines exist to serve man, so it follows that the machines need humans to let them know what man wants . . . and provide it if it is within the parameters of the limits of the control program. Since humans often lose control, the machine places limits on them so that the control loss does not create runaway problems, as those could defeat the machines ultimate purpose: to keep people happy. Otherwise, who the hell are all of those 'other people' in the Matrix but the people the machines are meant to serve? They are the plugged in brains of all of the non Zionist hooked in brains.
This line of thinking, and the mention of Harlan Ellison brings to mind 'The Glass Teat' and the idea of mindless people being suckled at the teat of a machine that is to keep it dumb and happy. People can't kill themselves if they are just kept . . . happy.
5. Ethnic mix. PC attempts to create good guys. All fine by me. Who really cares? I sure don't.
6. The 'almost orgy.' Fine, think audience demographics. Also, no harm in the soft core sex scene with Neo and Trinity, I've seen steamier stuff on TV.
7. How is Cain planted as a worm? As a mole? Maybe I miss remember Matrix 1. Will need to rent it this weekend.
8. Hey, folks, there is NOW a spoon! :) That was a nice little joke for us all to smile over.
9. Uh, where the hell did the food come from that was offered to Neo by the faithful in Zion? Arenth they underground? What's up with the produce?
10. "If the machine breaks down, we break down!" (From Platoon) Well, no crap, and if we break down, the Machine breaks down. The symbiosis again. The machines always restart Zion so that its program can be beta tested for anomalies again. Self testing, what advanced AI would not do that?
11. The Architect. The AI. Or, some of the foundational logic/code around which the Matrix was built. The underlying assumptions. ANd maybe, the underlying purpose.
All in all, I am glad that I stopped reading this thread until after I had seen the film, you guys really made my night as I recall the details from tonight's showing.
There were, no fooling, 23 people in the theatre with me. It was a pretty empty house, so I counted as I looked around during the closing . . . at started to chuckle to myself. :) I had figured it would be less than 20, some one must have snuck in after the lights went down.
Weird.
The Matrix - ithil - 06-06-2003
Occhidiangela,_ Wrote:9. Uh, where the hell did the food come from that was offered to Neo by the faithful in Zion? Arenth they underground? What's up with the produce?Hydroponics, of course. :)
The Matrix - Swarmalicious - 06-06-2003
There were, no fooling, 23 people in the theatre with me. It was a pretty empty house, so I counted as I looked around during the closing . . . at started to chuckle to myself.
Isn't it odd and wonderful when littel coincidences like this happen? They seeem to happen to me all the time. What does it all mean dammit?? :)
After all, Morpheus tells us - There are no accidents.
The Matrix - Swarmalicious - 06-06-2003
Hi Chaerophon,
Its been said before, so I'll say it again : :)
Everyone is really stupid. This movie's great because it brings such ideas to the masses.
Its tragic, yes - but do you know HOW MANY people have no idea who Nietzsche is? It doesn't surprise me that a philosophy major would find the plot trivial - most people are gonna need it spelled out.
I loved the first film too, and I hear what you're saying about the some of the mystery being stripped as things get explained... but that's bound to happen with anything.
The Matrix - Occhidiangela - 06-06-2003
From Ithil
Quote:Hydroponics, of course.
For hydroponics to work, you need soil. Fertile soil needs constant re enrichment, per crop fertilization rotation and organic decay, or it slowly loses its yield ability. Zion is deep deep down in the earth. WHere are the animals and bugs and birds that contribute to the cycle, and more importantly, the plants not under cultivation? Where do the nitrates come from for the fertilizer? The soil gets no radiation from the sun, even though the lamps powered by thermal sources substitute somewhat.
Soil is not just ground up rock, it is a boundary covering over the rocks et al that is made up of a great many organic compounds that have decayed. The Earth's surface has been 'dead' and 'dark' for quite some time, the normal processes that make and break down soil, the soil that you put into a hydroponic system, strike me as missing a few elements down there in the bowels of the earth.
I can understand how they make air and scrub it, that technology has been with us on nuclear submarines for decades. It's the other wide variety of materials, the nitrates etc, that might be in all the wrong proportions.
The other point someone made above is that the protein rich diets needed to make large, well fed people is missing another key ingredient, animal proteins. If this system has been going on for quite a few years, I'd guess the people would over time shrink in stature due to dietary influences.
All that said, I suppose that the suspension of disbelief would have been better for me had the food looked like something not quite like what we are used to. And that is really a small detail, as some form of nourishment has to be assumed in order for people to survive and thrive and reproduce, otherwise the thesis of the story simply can't hold water.
Not looking to be disappointed, but that internal inconsistency was a small disappointment to me. What the folks live on and eat is important, to good science fiction. :)