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+--- Thread: 1.6 Leaked Patch Notes (/thread-6194.html)
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Treesh - 06-21-2005
Raelynn,Jun 21 2005, 10:47 AM Wrote:They did say they weren't going to change it.Blizzard also said they weren't going to give wands autoshoot, they weren't going to wait until content patches to fix bugs, and that there were to be no new ruleset servers implemented.
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1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Darian - 06-21-2005
Treesh,Jun 21 2005, 09:35 AM Wrote:Not when I hear Darian say over teamspeak, repeatedly, "Feared again" and not being able to do a thing about it because both dwarf priests warded the gnome simultaneously. ;)
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Preferential treatment! /cry
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Treesh - 06-21-2005
Darian,Jun 21 2005, 10:58 AM Wrote:Preferential treatment! /cry:lol: But the gnome was in my group! And, for once, I vaguely remembered something about that bugger fearing people. Or maybe GG poked me before the fight started. I dunno. I started the raid half-asleep and just stayed there through it all. ;)
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1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Kevin - 06-21-2005
Darian,Jun 21 2005, 10:58 AM Wrote:Preferential treatment! /cry
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You're just not cute enough. :) :P
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - lemekim - 06-21-2005
Tal,Jun 21 2005, 12:57 PM Wrote:Lets look now at how this has really changed PvE for the horde. Lemekim pointed out that WotF allowed an undead tank 20 seconds or so to build up aggro on Onxyia and other fear producing mobs. To get the same effect the Alliance has to have two dwarf priests casting fear ward on a tank. The Lurkers on Stormrage are truly fortunate to have two dwarven priests but I can tell you that they are not overly abundant throughout the rest of the population. Other encounters where sleep and charm are abundant the horde had an advantage over the Alliance population. Granted these encounters are not overwhelming in number but they do happen in the end game instances.
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I don't know why there aren't that many dwarf priests given how versatile they are! (Fear Ward, instant free heal, and the only priest with ability to clear poisons/bleed effects). If every priest was a dwarf, I bet we would never even see this discussion =) It's probably because most people choose to go for a hot night elf or human female rather then short and stumpy dwarf. <_<
Still, you only really need 1 dwarf priest (well technically you don't need any, but even 1 makes it soooo much easier). 2 dwarf priests are simply an insurance. And there is only 1 high-end encounter in the whole game where charm/sleep is used, and that's Lucifron's guards, and even there the benefit is marginal, since you should have priests dispelling it anyway. Eranikus in Sunken Temple? His "sleep" is actually a stun. Baroness in Stratholme? Her "charm" cannot be broken through WotF. Hex curse from troll boss in LBRS? Nope.
On the other hand I can name quite a few encounters where fear is used and where Fear Ward is/would be superior:
Magmadar (5 second WotF is not nearly long enough to cover the 10 second fear window of Mag, making it useless in the fight), Beast in UBRS, Bats in Stratholme, some mobs in Scholomance, and of course Onyxia, to name a few.
In PvP, this change won't mean much. Most complaints people have are with undead Rogues. But ironically, all rogues get a trinket that breaks charm and fear (and polymorph!). Most rogues will use WotF reactively anyway, so undead rogues will break fear twice, just like with old WotF! Change in the fight? None.
And with warlocks? A smart Undead Rogue rogue will sap you, kill your succubus, then kill you. No change again. If you try to seduce them right after sap, the rogue will simply break with WotF and kill succubus, and if you choose not to reveal succubus, they can often find her with distract. Or they could simply jump you, wait for seduction, break out of it, blind the warlock and kill the succubus. Change in the encounter? None. It can even be done with the trinket, without WotF.
The only difference is that dumb rogues can't simply expect to jump warlocks, pop WotF on and try to kill the warlock in 20 seconds before it expires. Although they still can try, with 5 seconds of immunity and a trinket to break out when needed, they can either make warlock wait until seduction immunity timer is down (making warlocks waste precious time), or they can cast a 5 second at best Seduction, which won't be enough to bandage or do anything.
To make matters worse, if the rogue is a Blacksmith, they can use Glimmering Insignia for 30 second fear immunity. If they are an engineer, they can use Shadow Reflector to fear the Priest, Warlock or seduce the Succubus!
I think that in PvP, this only seems like a significant nerf, but it won't be long before people will start complaining again. The difference will be marginal. PvE wise, especially high-end content, it makes WotF fairly useless. I simply think that they nerfed it in the wrong way.
An interesting solution would be splitting charm/sleep and fear parts of the WotF, and linking their cooldown. So there will be two WotF, one that makes you only immune to fear for 20 seconds, and one that only makes you immune to charm/sleep for 20 seconds, and when one is used, neither of them can be used again for 2 or 3 minutes. This would keep PvE aspect of WotF intact, and would nerf effectiveness of WotF, especially against Warlocks. It won't change much against priests, but given that priests have 30 seconds cooldown on the fear, it doesn't matter if WotF lasts 1 second or 20. But that's my take on the subject, and I am biased! :P
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Elegantly - 06-21-2005
Tal,Jun 21 2005, 02:57 PM Wrote:Can we can the rhetoric please? Blizzard's CMs, developers and staff all play classes and races on both sides on the public servers. This has been repeated many times on the official forums.Blizzard also said there is no faction imbalance on the WoW servers.
Blizzard also said they will open the US servers for non-US players after release.
I trust in what I have seen myself. :)
Tal,Jun 21 2005, 02:57 PM Wrote:Lets look now at how this has really changed PvE for the horde. Lemekim pointed out that WotF allowed an undead tank 20 seconds or so to build up aggro on Onxyia and other fear producing mobs. To get the same effect the Alliance has to have two dwarf priests casting fear ward on a tank. [...]OTOH, there have been raid strategies floating around (bare with me, I'm not a raid expert...not by far) which make use of Paladin heals because they generate only a marginal amount of aggro. Of course, this is a bit like comparing apples (a racial trait) with oranges (a class), but since WotF is Horde only and Paladins are Alliance only, there is at least *some* similarity.
Tal,Jun 21 2005, 02:57 PM Wrote:But the real area to look at is in PvP. In capture the flag battlegrounds fear rules supreme. Those who are quickest on the fear and have more of it available will have an easeir time than those who don't. A typical encounter on the PvE battlegrounds is a horde warrior charges into an alliance group and fears. All alliance scatter. The fear passes and the alliance starts regrouping their tactics. Horde warlock or priest fears and the alliance re-scatters. Rinse and repeat at least one more time for fun. [...]Don't forget that for some classes, the Honor System introduced PvP trinkets which also remove fear effects, so this situation is not Alliance-only anymore.
And I can assure you, for every single voice that says "nerf WotF" and "nerf Shamans" there will be another voice saying "nerf Paladins". Alliance has a plate-wearing backup healer (with the option to use non-plate gear to buff up his healing capabilities) who can also remove Polymorph and other debuffs on his friends. The Horde needs fragile Priests to counter Entangling Roots, Polymorph & Co.; don't expect that Priests will last as long on the battlefield than Druids, Shamans or Paladins.
But I really don't want to get into this discussion; rather, I want to point out that I can find a lot of arguments for both factions about a) why they are at a disadvantage and B) why they are at an advantage.
For example, the Horde has been whining about being outnumbered when playing in the field over the last months, now the Alliance is whining that they have longer BG queues than the Horde because of server imbalance. It's quite funny after all ;)
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Tal - 06-21-2005
Elegantly,Jun 21 2005, 12:46 PM Wrote:Blizzard also said there is no faction imbalance on the WoW servers.[right][snapback]81168[/snapback][/right]
Blizzard also said they will open the US servers for non-US players after release.
You misquote them sir. Blizzard has actually acknowledged that there has been a faction imbalance but has qualified this statement by saying that the census sites are inaccurate.
We are also still after release - they could conceivably still open up the US servers to non-US players. I just wouldn't count on it. ;)
Elegantly,Jun 21 2005, 12:46 PM Wrote:OTOH, there have been raid strategies floating around (bare with me, I'm not a raid expert...not by far) which make use of Paladin heals because they generate only a marginal amount of aggro. Of course, this is a bit like comparing apples (a racial trait) with oranges (a class), but since WotF is Horde only and Paladins are Alliance only, there is at least *some* similarity.[right][snapback]81168[/snapback][/right]
Don't forget that for some classes, the Honor System introduced PvP trinkets which also remove fear effects, so this situation is not Alliance-only anymore.
You're right you are comparing apples and oranges. They've also fixed the bug that allowed paladin chain heals to over heal in the situations you described. In high end raid encounters Paladins have been regulated to buff/cleanse bots with the occassional heal.
Elegantly,Jun 21 2005, 12:46 PM Wrote:And I can assure you, for every single voice that says "nerf WotF" and "nerf Shamans" there will be another voice saying "nerf Paladins". Alliance has a plate-wearing backup healer (with the option to use non-plate gear to buff up his healing capabilities) who can also remove Polymorph and other debuffs on his friends. The Horde needs fragile Priests to counter Entangling Roots, Polymorph & Co.; don't expect that Priests will last as long on the battlefield than Druids, Shamans or Paladins.[right][snapback]81168[/snapback][/right]
Horde seem to have gotten around this apparent uberness by keeping me and my fellow paladins sheeped/sapped/seduced so you'll forgive me if I don't find it as powerful for group PvP as you do. Though the times I've been left to run rampant healing in battlegrounds our groups have been more successful. As soon as the horde realize I will heal my team mates you can bet I will be in the graveyard along with the priests.
Elegantly,Jun 21 2005, 12:46 PM Wrote:But I really don't want to get into this discussion; rather, I want to point out that I can find a lot of arguments for both factions about a) why they are at a disadvantage and B) why they are at an advantage.[right][snapback]81168[/snapback][/right]
I understand your points. I argued the same for and against in regards to paladin undead skills working on PCs. Personally I would rather have those skills back than a nerf to WotF. At least then a section of the Horde populace would have a reason to fear my paladin entering combat. :P
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Quark - 06-21-2005
lemekim,Jun 21 2005, 12:38 PM Wrote:Still, you only really need 1 dwarf priest...
Gargoyles in Stratholme, raid group. Would take 5 minutes to buff everyone with Fear Ward. Say 2 minutes for the people that should actually be close to the gargoyle. In one fell stroke, the gargoyle removes all those Fear Wards. Oh goody, more wait time!
Well, okay, practically you see most groups just skim over the Fear Wards, minus the MT, to save time. Then someone gets feared into adds.
Fear Ward is a great skill, but don't underestimate it's one-time use only and 30 second cooldown parts.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Quark - 06-21-2005
Elegantly,Jun 21 2005, 12:46 PM Wrote:And I can assure you, for every single voice that says "nerf WotF" and "nerf Shamans" there will be another voice saying "nerf Paladins". Alliance has a plate-wearing backup healer (with the option to use non-plate gear to buff up his healing capabilities) who can also remove Polymorph and other debuffs on his friends. The Horde needs fragile Priests to counter Entangling Roots, Polymorph & Co.; don't expect that Priests will last as long on the battlefield than Druids, Shamans or Paladins.
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*Snort* I feel sorry for paladins, to tell the truth. They rarely have a defined role, and rarely put their plate to use. I'd call them more "emergency" than "backup" healers, unless they're only focused on people who shouldn't be getting hurt in the first place. They do less damage than everyone excluding healers, even the MT. The damage they do have is mostly random, dependent on procs. Two General fights in a row, a paladin's roll has been "don't get in the fight, just Ressurect people."
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Skandranon - 06-21-2005
nobbie,Jun 21 2005, 04:07 AM Wrote:Considering the fact that the player ratio Alliance vs. Horde is overall about 2:1 on all WOW servers, WotF's spell duration should actually have been increased to 30 seconds to compensate this imbalance in PvP!
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This is an absurd contention and you know it. In Warsong Gulch it's 10 v 10 regardless of how the populations are. That is what they are, quite correctly, balancing for.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - lemekim - 06-21-2005
Quark,Jun 21 2005, 09:28 PM Wrote:Gargoyles in Stratholme, raid group. Would take 5 minutes to buff everyone with Fear Ward. Say 2 minutes for the people that should actually be close to the gargoyle. In one fell stroke, the gargoyle removes all those Fear Wards. Oh goody, more wait time!
Well, okay, practically you see most groups just skim over the Fear Wards, minus the MT, to save time. Then someone gets feared into adds.
Fear Ward is a great skill, but don't underestimate it's one-time use only and 30 second cooldown parts.
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5 minutes? Can be done while approaching the Gargoyles. As you said, you only need to buff the melee anyway really for that part. That's what? 5 people? So one fear wiped your Fear Ward, but none of you even moved. Next pull, a minute later, a gargoyle fears again. By this time you probably got the fear ward back on tank and another person, but the rest of the melee will get feared and will need a dispel, but at least you will need to dispel only 3 people.
Now a Horde raid. Lets be generous and assume 5 people will have WotF (contrary to popular belief, only about 1/3 horde are undead). So when the fear hits, some of the (usually melee) will get feared anyway and have a chance to bring some friends. Lets be even more generous and assume that all those within range of fear are undead. When the fear hits, they will get feared, but probably will use WotF before they get too far and not draw any aggro. They go back to mob. A new pull a minute later, a gargoyle fears again. WotF is down, all 5 people run around scattered, and a priest has to dispel all of them.
I suppose the real difference is preparation and laziness. WotF is always available, while one must actually spend time to keep Fear Ward on.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Chesspiece_face - 06-21-2005
Skandranon,Jun 21 2005, 04:49 PM Wrote:This is an absurd contention and you know it. In Warsong Gulch it's 10 v 10 regardless of how the populations are. That is what they are, quite correctly, balancing for.
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Well from the alliance perspective on Bronzebeard i'd give the horde the bonus of an improved WotF if i didnt have to wait 3+ hours just to get into a Warsong Gulch match. As it is the horde side has < 5 minute waits at almost all times while the alliance has 2+ hour waits almost all the time. I have yet to get into a BG match for only this reason. I sat in the waiting line for 3 hours last night before i gave up and went to bed. (and this is on a monday night after midnight.) This is an issue that Blizzard is going to have to resolve at some point. I'm not sure if they have the ability to merge Battlegrounds for multiple servers IE DAoC, but something will need to be done.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Kevin - 06-21-2005
Chesspiece_face,Jun 21 2005, 05:01 PM Wrote:Well from the alliance perspective on Bronzebeard i'd give the horde the bonus of an improved WotF if i didnt have to wait 3+ hours just to get into a Warsong Gulch match. As it is the horde side has < 5 minute waits at almost all times while the alliance has 2+ hour waits almost all the time. I have yet to get into a BG match for only this reason. I sat in the waiting line for 3 hours last night before i gave up and went to bed. (and this is on a monday night after midnight.) This is an issue that Blizzard is going to have to resolve at some point. I'm not sure if they have the ability to merge Battlegrounds for multiple servers IE DAoC, but something will need to be done.
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Just an FYI you can put yourself in the queue and then leave the area, go quest, grind, do whatever and if you get in you get a confirm box and then get ported in. I know that it still sucks if what you really want to do is battlegrounds but not everyone knows how the queue works.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Quark - 06-21-2005
lemekim,Jun 21 2005, 05:58 PM Wrote:Now a Horde raid ...
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I didn't compare it to Horde. I didn't even try to. I was countering your "one dwarven priest" argument. That and I've seen the same gargoyle fear multiple times, so your "next fight" line of reasoning doesn't hold true.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - lemekim - 06-21-2005
Chesspiece_face,Jun 21 2005, 10:01 PM Wrote:Well from the alliance perspective on Bronzebeard i'd give the horde the bonus of an improved WotF if i didnt have to wait 3+ hours just to get into a Warsong Gulch match. As it is the horde side has < 5 minute waits at almost all times while the alliance has 2+ hour waits almost all the time. I have yet to get into a BG match for only this reason. I sat in the waiting line for 3 hours last night before i gave up and went to bed. (and this is on a monday night after midnight.) This is an issue that Blizzard is going to have to resolve at some point. I'm not sure if they have the ability to merge Battlegrounds for multiple servers IE DAoC, but something will need to be done.
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Sometimes leaving and reentering the queue works. The queue tends to bug up for some odd reasons.
On a side note, this might be related to a really weird queue system Blizzard uses. For example, in graveyards in Alterac, it appears they use LIFO (last in first out) queue. Have you ever had a situation when you enter the queue with 25 or more seconds left to get resurrected, just to have 10 other people resurrect before you? Repeatedly? Yet if you enter the queue with under 10-15 seconds remaining, you will always get a resurrect? Strange eh =)
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of troubles with getting in were related to a stupid queue design..
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Quark - 06-21-2005
nobbie,Jun 21 2005, 03:28 AM Wrote:Come on, WotF is a some seconds potection vs. minutes of cooldown. There's still lots of time for a Human or Gnome Warlock to survive and win.
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If you're gonna argue the seconds working vs the minutes of cooldown, let's look at Blind. 10 seconds of Blind, with a 5 minute cooldown. So that's less than half the effectiveness of pre-nerf WotF by your rating. It's still an "I WIN" button for stunlock rogues. Anytime you see complaints about even equip/level/health players dieing while completely stunned, a Blind is involved. A 5-minute cooldown doesn't change how ridiculously strong that is.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - lemekim - 06-21-2005
Quark,Jun 21 2005, 10:36 PM Wrote:I didn't compare it to Horde. I didn't even try to. I was countering your "one dwarven priest" argument. That and I've seen the same gargoyle fear multiple times, so your "next fight" line of reasoning doesn't hold true.
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I am not sure on the cooldown between Gargoyle's fears, we usually kill it before it gets a chance to use it again or keep it shackled. We usually see multiple fearsr when we are fighting more then Gargoyle. In this particular situation, yes, WotF is probably better... At least until the next patch when it lasts 5 seconds. But in the situation I described, Fear Ward has advantage.
I am not trying to say one is strictly better then another (having WotF always handy instead of buffing is already a big plus), but it is silly when people say WotF is better in PvE when you can trivialize Magmadar and Onyxia encounter with Fear Ward.
As for dwarved priests, I think we can both agree there should be more of them ;)
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - MongoJerry - 06-21-2005
lemekim,Jun 20 2005, 10:32 AM Wrote:But this change does make it fairly useless in most PvE situations now, where alliance has quite a leg up already. For example, during Onyxia, an Undead tank would have 20 seconds of trying to get aggro on Onyxia and get position right instead of worrying about fear. Now that it's 5 seconds, it pretty worthless. Meanwhile, a dwarf priest can simply keep Fear Ward up on a tank, making this transition period so much easier for Alliance. And that's not the only fight where WotF will become either useless or pretty close to it.
On Tichondrius, at least, it's rare to find an undead Warrior, since the Tauren and Orc racial abilities are generally considered superior. Undead warriors are rare enough that I've heard people describe someone as, "Mick, you know, that undead warrior...".
Pretty much all priests in hard-core guilds should be asked to reroll dwarf priests. Dwarf priests are so overpowered now relatively speaking. If I had a dwarf priest in Warsong Gulch, I'd Fear Ward the two rogues on my team (you have a minute to prebuff people), and then tell them to take out the Horde priests, while the rest of the team runs in a train straight for the enemy flag and back, slaughtering everything in their path. I hope that Fear Ward gets reduced to a 30 second duration or something, because now that WOTF has been nerfed, Fear Ward is just over the top.
1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - LochnarITB - 06-22-2005
Raelynn,Jun 21 2005, 10:47 AM Wrote:Has anyone heard anything about any of them?This is the only new alchemy recipe I know of. It requires the imbued vials that started showing up at the vendors. BTW, my first born child is up for trade to anyone that finds this recipe for me. :lol:
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1.6 Leaked Patch Notes - Kevin - 06-22-2005
Of course using the gargoyles as an example is silly because 2 def spec warriors can prevent them from fearing. Improved Shield bash shuts it down as does conc blow. I can almost keep one from fearing by myself. Improved shield bash is one of the only advantages a prot warrior has since you can shut down people who don't do traditional casts. And as mentioned shackle will pretty much negate the fear too because with everyone hitting it at the end it won't get it off. :) But I'm just being silly.