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who wants hellfire? - Yogi_Baar - 03-19-2004

Quote:Therefore, I would like to apologize for the contents and tone of the first response that you received, on behalf of myself and likeminded lurkers.
It's not his fault that "likeminded lurkers" are in tremendously short supply. Don't get me wrong though, I don't agree with him one bit.

Malach's second sentence of the paragraph was entirely false:
Quote:It was uncalled for and out of line.

To conclude:
On behalf of myself and likeminded lurkers I would like to thank you, Pete, for the contents and tone of the first response that you gave. It was called for and in place.

who wants hellfire? - LemmingofGlory - 03-19-2004

Quote: My final word - the "self-centered" reference naturally does not apply to "stupid Americans not importing Hellfire to some countries" as someone interpreted it (completely off-mark), but rather to obviously innate inability of some posters to see beyond their usual horizons, as in practical life, as in this example, things may be and often are beyond applying some fixed rules (including the rules of "legality") indiscriminately to various - and sometimes radically different - environments. The very narrow-minded and limited "holier than thou" attitude of some posters here is what deeply disturbs me.

The Lounge is not an abandonware or "warez" website. As such, we'll happily tell you how to get hold of a game legally, and we sympathize if you have difficulty locating it. However, we will not distribute the software illegally. If we made exceptions and distributed software (for free) to those who had difficulty obtaining it, it'd be inconsistent to not offer it freely to those who can obtain it commercially. The Lounge is not going to do this.

-Lemming

who wants hellfire? - ismael. - 03-19-2004

Lemming: I was beginning to think about this and I must absolutely give you a point. The whole thread is unfortunate if there are to be the same server rules applicable to all its users on equal basis.

who wants hellfire? - LemmingofGlory - 03-19-2004

Quote:The whole thread is unfortunate if there are to be the same server rules applicable to all its users on equal basis.

What do you mean?

-Lemming

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-19-2004

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all for all your support; albeit unwittingly. I was surprised that I didn’t receive more support. Actually, I did not receive any. A funny thing happened though. What was humorous was what did not happen.

I was criticized, castigated, and condemned - unanimously. All lurkers who contributed to this thread intensely, sometimes even vitriolicly, disagreed with me, or rather disagreed with my opinions and arguments. Yet no other lurker felt it necessary, to use expletives, “scum sucking”, or name calling, “idiot or thief, or state “leave before you are thrown out.”

I believe that bears some consideration.

Warren

Malach cha Movis

And that’s what I think!

who wants hellfire? - Selby - 03-19-2004

malach_cha_movis,Mar 19 2004, 03:52 PM Wrote:I was criticized, castigated, and condemned - unanimously.  All lurkers who contributed to this thread intensely, sometimes even vitriolicly, disagreed with me, or rather disagreed with my opinions and arguments.  Yet no other lurker felt it necessary, to use expletives, “scum sucking”, or name calling, “idiot or thief, or state “leave before you are thrown out.”
This is why we love the lurker community and those who have been around as long as they have. Attack the argument, not the poster.

who wants hellfire? - LemmingofGlory - 03-20-2004

Quote: Yet no other lurker felt it necessary, to use expletives, “scum sucking”, or name calling, “idiot or thief, or state “leave before you are thrown out.”

I believe that bears some consideration.

I figured you'd read it that way. Let's re-read it together.

"I think you've confused us with a bunch of scum sucking thieves." =/= "You are a scum sucking thief."

That's insulting through implication only; it associates the poster with "scum sucking thieves." However, it is merely condescention, not a direct insult.

"Perhaps you'd better leave before being throw out." is blunt. So what? Offering pirated software is potentially bannable. Pete warned him. He got the message. No harm done.

-Lemming

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-20-2004

Hi Lemming,

I appreciate your giving me another chance to comment.

I think you and just about everyone else missed the point that I tried to make. Let’s chalk it up to my poor communication skills. When someone suggests something illegal, morally objectionable, and unacceptable to the group, there are at least two possible responses. One response seizes the opportunity to claim moral superiority and/or vent unrelated accumulated anger and hostility at a very easy target. Another response attempts to correct, educate, and possibly convert a miscreant. If one chooses the second more reasonable approach then I would like to suggest we remember a very old and oft repeated saying, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

I am arguing for reasonable standards of civility and consideration, in addition to the standards of communication that you, as moderator, espouse. I argue against the lack thereof. If this makes me a criminal, then so be it. I proudly proclaim that I am guilty. Nevertheless, as Henry David responded to Ralph Waldo, when Emerson questioned Thoreau’s presence in jail, “What are you doing out there?”

[QUOTE]As such, we'll happily tell you how to get hold of a game legally,

I would be very interested to hear how you think this might be achieved.

I actually might have a method, which will accomplish that end. Please read my following post.

Thanks for listening,

Malach cha Movis

warren

And that's what I think!

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-20-2004

Hi Saladin,

I have reread your posts three or four times and nowhere have I been able to find a request or even an intimation that you wished someone from the civilized world :lol: to send you an illegitimate copy of Hellfire.

However, I sympathize with the problem, common, I believe, to many parts of the world, where for one reason or another, people are unable to participate fully in the possibilities available too much of the remainder of the world.

You, at least, are not so handicapped. Because of the internet and your interests, you have a network of associates, nay friends, who can and will help you out.

For instance, if you need or desire a legitimate copy of Hellfire, post the total amount, in dollars (not drachmas), that you are willing to spend, here, or in a PM to me. I will find out the cost of international shipping. I will then subtract that amount from the total amount and use the balance to bid for Hellfire on Ebay. When I have a successful bid and you receive the software, arrangements can be made so that you can reimburse me. I do not accept international credit cards, but I will accept a pound of flesh, or your first born :D .

Malach cha Movis

Warren

And that’s the way it is!

who wants hellfire? - --Pete - 03-20-2004

Hi,

“You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

Yes. Now the question is, do you want a forum full of flies, or do you want to drive them away?

BTW, since you like quoting things that you don't understand, think it through. This quote that you, and other bleeding hearts like you, like to use is great. But remember that the people who invented that quote were trying to catch flies to KILL them. So, yes, by all means let us attract as many posters as possible so that we can ban their accounts. That makes so much more sense than just driving off the occasional thief or cheater.

--Pete

who wants hellfire? - LemmingofGlory - 03-20-2004

Quote:If one chooses the second more reasonable approach then I would like to suggest we remember a very old and oft repeated saying, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

:huh: :blink:

Quote:If this makes me a criminal, then so be it. I proudly proclaim that I am guilty.

:rolleyes: :D :lol:

Quote:I actually might have a method, which will accomplish that end.

For instance, if you need or desire a legitimate copy of Hellfire, post the total amount, in dollars (not drachmas), that you are willing to spend, here, or in a PM to me. I will find out the cost of international shipping. I will then subtract that amount from the total amount and use the balance to bid for Hellfire on Ebay. When I have a successful bid and you receive the software, arrangements can be made so that you can reimburse me. I do not accept international credit cards, but I will accept a pound of flesh, or your first born

:)

who wants hellfire? - WeiZ - 03-20-2004

Hey guys:

I think without Malach cha Movis's E-mail I would never come back here and see what's happening.

First please let me state: Since just arrived US 3 weeks ago, I made a lot of mistakes with my poor English(I'm still working on it, believe it or not, I have to read yours posts with a dictionary^_^).

I've said I did not know that Serria still has the copyright of Hellfire. If my offer was DiabloII CD iso, I should be guilty absolutely. I don't want any excuse but I read this for the first time when I was here:

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/diablo/d1faq.shtml

"Hellfire WAS a retail game. It is not available for download."

Actually, I had just found it available for download on an English website a few days before.

"Hellfire availability is extremely limited these days, and, unfortunately, Sierra doesn't carry it any more."

Then the illegal idea came up.

I apologize for my big mistake. Pete has corrected me: "...until such time as either the copyright expiries or Sierra puts Hellfire in the public domain, what you are suggesting *is* illegal."

As I said I am new guy in US. For a long time what I can do is stay at home and go to internet. Then I found lurkerlounge. My purpose of the first post is that I want to be friendly and helpful and make some friends here, nothing else.

Truly I was discouraged and shame when I met the first response. Now with Malach cha Movis's invition I am determined to stay here and do as mush as I can to win a positive impression(you want me a new strategy? Oh I'd like to but you know my english...>_<).

Ok let me finish:
Thanks Pete, you prevented me to carry out a illegal idea.
Thanks Malach cha Movis, you encouraged me to come back.
And thanks everybody, sincerely.

your WeiZ

who wants hellfire? - Sabra - 03-20-2004

WeiZ, I think you should stay. A poor start does not always equal a poor finish. You sound like you learned a lot.

Nobody else has said it, but I will. Every once in awhile someone comes along and very nicely asks "Does anyone know how I can get a copy of Hellfire?"

All the usual answers are given: "Try eBay," etc., and then one of us who has "Hellifire" just drops a quiet little email or private message to the person who asked and writes, "Give me your address and I'll burn one for you."

It happens, but it usually happens "under wraps," as we say. That means out of the public view.

Hang in there. You're doing fine.

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-20-2004

Hi Pete,
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to you, directly.

So, you believe that I am a “bleeding heart”. Let’s see:
I am a “bleeding heart” because I would rather gain a convert rather than burn a heretic?
I am a “bleeding heart” because I would prefer to give someone food rather than tell him he should go hungry?
I am a “bleeding heart” because I would rather protect someone from the bully rather than be the bully?
I am a “bleeding heart” because I believe that discourse should be polite and civil rather than rude and coarse?
Yes, I believe you are correct. I am a “bleeding heart”.
Since you believe all the opposite, what shall we call you? :unsure:

As a side note – I applaud your diligence and intellect in your attempt to discover the origin of the expression, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” However, any descriptive linguist will tell you, while the etymology of a word or expression may be interesting and/or helpful; it is the current usage that is important.

The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.
"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"
You can win people to your side more easily by gentle persuasion and flattery than by hostile confrontation.

To take a more current example; thirty–five years ago “gay” meant frivolously happy. Can you imagine yourself, today, going up to a happy 6’4” man, with biker boots, black leather jacket, tattoos on his 24-inch biceps, and telling him that he is gay. :blink:

FYI the real origin of the proverb, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar,” is very recent. It comes from the baseball centerfielder, Willy Mays. It seems he tried putting vinegar in his glove so that he would be better able to catch flies. When that failed to work, he tried honey. This caused him to exclaim, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” :lol:

Pete, let me take this opportunity to complement you on this last post. You posted with style, humor, and intelligence. Even though you wished to be critical, you did not use a single epithet or vulgarity. You managed the entire post without being rude or nasty. It makes me proud to believe that I played some small part in your increased maturity. ;)
And that’s what I think!
Warren
Malach cha Movis
“Excellence is not a skill, it’s a habit! “Aristotle”

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-20-2004

Hey WeiZ,

Welcome! I'm glad I get to say that a second time.

Thank you for your very kind words. I'm glad I was able to make a postive difference. It makes me feel very good about myself.

Malach cha Movis

"Excellence is not a skill, it's a habit! "Aristotle"

who wants hellfire? - silented - 03-21-2004

Ok, I feel like I need to stop lurking and speak up.

Quote:BTW, since you like quoting things that you don't understand, think it through. This quote that you, and other bleeding hearts like you, like to use is great.

Who Are You? Rush Limbaugh? Bill O'Reilly?

'Bleeding Heart' is a label that many people including myself deeply resent.

Will you please stop trying to turn this thread into a political mud slinging match?

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-21-2004

Hello Sabra,

I'm glad you posted in this thread. I have been following some of your posts on other threads and I read them with great pleasure. :)

You make an interesting point in your comments to WeiZ. Before others attempt to castigate you, let me say that the problem does not lie with the one who makes the offer. That person is trying to be helpful or friendly. The major fault would lie with the potential recipient. He or she is the one responsible for refusing or accepting the offer. We are each responsible for our own moral center. No one else can or should undertake that responsibility.

It's not the devil's fault for tempting Faust. The tragedy is that Faust took the offer. Of course, if he did not, there would have been no story.

Malach cha Movis

To paraphrase my paraphrase of Aristotle, “Morality is not a skill, it's a habit!"
(And like excellence, it must be acquired. It cannot be given or forced.)

And that's definitely what I think!

who wants hellfire? - malach_cha_movis - 03-21-2004

Hello silented, :)

Welcome! Wow, a new member and potential ally all in one day. :D

Don’t concern yourself; this has been a mudslinging thread from the first response. It is just some of us (me) have tried to be more subtle about it.

You have to forgive Pete. He is probably young and immature and he “knows not what he says.” ;)

Don’t concern yourself about labels, liberal or conservative, or any other kind. If we show that we are bothered, then our opponents have ammunition to use against us. Rather define the label to be what you want, then wear it proudly. :rolleyes:

Hang on and enjoy the ride. :lol:

Malach cha Movis

“…we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,…" - Winston Churchill

And that’s the way it is!

who wants hellfire? - LemmingofGlory - 03-21-2004

Quote:"Hellfire WAS a retail game. It is not available for download."

Actually, I had just found it available for download on an English website a few days before.

It is not legally available for download. Since I was considering only legal sources, it was not necessary to include the word "legally."

Quote:I apologize for my big mistake.

You don't need to. Just don't do it again. We're pretty forgiving around here.

-Lemming

who wants hellfire? - Nystul - 03-21-2004

You have to forgive Pete. He is probably young and immature and he “knows not what he says.”


Wow, I almost spit my beverage out of my nose when I read this line! Was it meant to be a joke, or do you have no idea what you are getting into?

I wonder, has there ever been a locked thread in Griswold's Shop? It feels like that is where this is headed....