+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: The Lurker Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Spider-Man 2 (/thread-8309.html)
Pages:
1
2
Spider-Man 2 - Minionman - 07-18-2004
[wcip Wrote:Angel,Jul 18 2004, 12:44 AM] It's not that I'm some sick individual who don't think love is a beautiful thing, it's just very few (if any!) movies can successfully illustrate its brilliance without making it corny or just embarrassing. All movies try, and I can't think of one which has actually succeeded.I don't think that is sick at all.
I *did* however, enjoy the Aragon/Ãomer-thing in The Two Towers.
I also have to agree that movies don't show love well. All they show is the romantic, cheesy, idealized part, not the nuts and bolts of what happens or the possible ugly results that could happen after everyone leaves their high.
Spider-Man 2 - Rhydderch Hael - 07-18-2004
[wcip Wrote:Angel,Jul 17 2004, 03:04 PM] ... 3. "Carry the desk, but don't strain yourself." said the aunt to Spiderman in plain clothes. She expects this little boy to carry an entire desk himself? Without straining himself?! Speaking of desks, how the hell did Aunt Deskie get the bloody thing out in the yard anyway? Did 9-year old Henry do it? Perhaps Aunt Deskie bulldozed over him as well with a 10-minute soliloquy about heroes and all sorts of gobby, self-righteous garbage which inspired him to pick up the 300-pound desk and carry it down the stairs and into the yard? ...Is this from Spiderman 2? Is this a scene after Spiderman saves Aunt May from some villianny? Because from what I've heard about Aunt May in this movie, this is where she realizes on her own that her dear nephew Peter Parker is actually Spiderman. She delivers some speech about heroism to Peter that clearly isn't meant for "Peter", but rather Spiderman. Is the desk part indicative of her realization her nephew is a super-hero?
P.S. It is! It is! This scene is here because Aunt May knows Peter is Spiderman!
Spider-Man 2 - Guest - 07-24-2004
edited
Spider-Man 2 - Rhydderch Hael - 07-25-2004
[wcip Wrote:Angel,Jul 17 2004, 03:04 PM] ...What makes a good villain, is a villain who's believable; one you can sympathise with; one who is acting out of real ambition and real motivation instead of him being - quote - Evil® - unquote. ...On this grace, I couldn't really find anything in Doc Ock to grasp or understand. I have no quarrel with Molina's performance as the Docâ my beef is with the character written up in the script.
...I love movies where you sympathise more with the villain than with the hero, because you can understand and appreciate their motives. I don't like this cut and dry black and white evil vs good stuff. ...
I am to suppose that Doc Ock was written to be one of these "sympathetic" villians whose motivations aren't evil in the outright, but his flaws motivate him to do evil things to accomplish his ultimate goals. A good guy trying to do a good thing, but through swift and selfish actions that are evil.
Yet if that were the case and his morality was still intact underneath his criminal actions, his use of hostages and human shields in his combat against Spiderman tells against such a notion. A noble scientist trying to finish a noble but twisted dream would not pick up an elderly woman and hold her in front of cops, or turn el passengers into projectiles to be flung at Spiderman. Doc Ock was, in clear black-n-white terms, being Evil® that stood starkly against the submerged morality that gains him in the end.
I do notice one thing about the hero and villians of the movies: amateur superhero vs amateur supervillians. The Green Goblin was no pro at this game. Neither was Doc Ock. I'm wondering what would happen when and if Spiderman has to come up against a professional and experienced villian in the next movies of this franchise.
Spider-Man 2 - Rhydderch Hael - 07-26-2004
[wcip Wrote:Angel,Jul 17 2004, 03:04 PM] ... Stipulating that the "illogical scenes" also would be fixed ...Of course, when you say illogical scenes, you're really meaning illogical reactions by certain bit characters, namely Cap'n Jameson and the bridesmaid.
Those are not the two folks I'm scratching my head over concerning illogical attitudes.
J.J. Jameson continually publishes cover-page news about Spiderman the Menace; Spiderman the Terrorizer; Spiderman the Reckless Vigilante who is a clear danger to the city. This movie is set two years after the first one. One would figure that two years of superheroics on the part of Spidey will set public opinion firmly in his favor. We even get that much from the kids and Aunt May's talk of kids. So, the consensus is that the good majority of the city sees Spiderman as a hero, not a villain. One would assume then that anyone reading the cover of the Daily Bugle emblazoned with yet another one of Spidey's "criminal acts" would think the Bugle a scandalous rag on some personal witch-hunt.
If there is a board of directors or a shareholders' board controlling the Bugle, J.J. Jameson would have his posterior well set in the sling and already beating his kid on a race to the moon. If Jameson himself is running the show, he's already and irrevocably set his reputation in the city as an irrational crank that nobody is going to listen to anymore. This buzz-cut shepard boy has called 'wolf' a hundred times too often. I'm not baffled by his motivation. I'm baffled that Jameson is still a force to be reckoned with here.
Second illogical: Harry Osbourne. Right before he died in the first movie, Norman implored to Peter not to tell Harry about what happened. That has to be the defining reason why Peter (in the guise of Spiderman) has never told Harry the truth of his father's death. That's probably why Peter (unmasked) still did not say "I didn't kill your father, Harry. The Green Goblin did..." in this movie. There, then. I understand.
The trick is, Harry does find out the truth in the end. Harry finds the Goblin's lair. If Harry was savvy enough, he'd realize that his father, Norman Osbourne, was not just the Green Goblin: he was a murderer, a terrorist, and he almost killed Mary Jane-- as well as almost killing Harry himself!
Probably then-- no, logic demands then, Harry should have realized that Spiderman's involvement in Norman's death has been re-painted in a whole new color. There's a reason why Norman died now. There's a purpose in Spiderman's tie to Norman's death. That should have eased or set straight some of the questions and hatreds Harry held against Spiderman.
What do we get instead? The Green Goblin, Mk II. "Oh, it turns out my dad was a murdering menace who was nuttier than a Bedlamite sock-hop in an almond grove. Cool! I want to grow up to be just like him!"
Norman Osbourne's turn to villainny had the forgiving grace of being chemically-induced. Harry's going to turn through conscious, unadulterated choice in the matter. It's his decision, and he'll choose the Goblin's way as a means to answer his dilemmas. That makes him the first real villain that will arise in this franchise. A villain of his own making, not one created from a victim of overwhelming circumstance.
Spider-Man 2 - Rhydderch Hael - 07-26-2004
If Doc Ock in Evil® Mode is what the fillmakers wanted, they should have played up the trauma that Otto Octavius' felt when his wife was killed. Try to tie some thought in Otto's head that Spiderman had a chance to save her, yet failed (in reality, may have been down to bad timing or plain misfortune).
In that way, Doc Ock somehow blames Spidey for the death of his wife, and the subsequent use of hostages and innocent bystanders can be declared Ock's testing of Spiderman's resolve to save lives. Something to the tune of "You failed to save her, now let's see if you can save this old woman!"
And as Spidey manages to save more and more people from Ock's "tests", he becomes all the more infuriated because if Spiderman could have saved these folks, then what prevented him from saving Octavius' wife?
Then again, it would have brought frightening synergy to the fears Peter has concerning Mary Jane. Doc Ock would have been driven to this madness through the loss of the woman he loved. Peter would have to begin wondering if he lost Mary Jane, would Spiderman follow the same fate as Doc Ock?
Which would have upset the resolution of the film as it was so-made. So I see why such a character arc was dumped. Still, it would have given reason to Ock's casual abuse of innocents during his crime spree.