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+--- Thread: Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? (/thread-7008.html)
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Nystul - 02-19-2005
DeeBye,Feb 18 2005, 10:48 PM Wrote:I want a secret D1 dungeon, which recreates the original game in 3D. I would dearly love to hack and slash my way from Church to Hell in first-person 3D. Can you imagine how horrifying the Butcher would be?
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This conjures a funny mental image of trying to stair trap the Butcher in first-person, and getting dizzy as your character runs around the staircase. Of course the stair case would have actual stairs, so if the Butcher actually charges into it he would go tumbling down and make a big thud.
The Butcher's chamber would be awfully gruesome if rendered in the detail available now. It would probably have to be watered down a bit.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Fragbait - 01-19-2006
Hi,
First I have to say that it's a p.i.t.a. that the search engine doesn't understand short words, or numbers for that matter. So no searching for 'Diablo 3' or 'Diablo III'. My search for 'diablo' yielded too many hits, and 'diablo wishlist' not the right ones. With '+diablo +suggestions' iirc I dug out this one. If it doesn't fit - please don't be mad at me.
I've written and saved at my laptop my personal suggestion list for an upcoming D3 and I thought I'd share. You might have some valuable and entertaining things to say, after all! :)
So here we go:
-----------------beginning
Diablo ™ III â suggestions
Given the fact that Diablo, Diablo II and Lord of Destruction were all very successful titles, it seems logical that Diablo III (or 3) will come up to perpetuate the universe. The trademark âDiabloâ in respect to video games surely is worth a lot. Players world-wide are looking forward to the third issue of this game. Because of the vast success of World of Warcraft as a MMORPG â a massively multiplayer online role-play-game â it is not known for certain if the sequel (or prequel?) of the Diablo series will remain an isometric hack & slash rpg. I do, however, act on the assumption that Diablo III will be very similar to its predecessors, what concerns gameplay, at least. So here are my suggestions:
On the Character Classes
8 character classes:
The Warrior,
The Shaman,
The Amazon,
The Thief,
The Witch,
The Sorcerer,
The Ninja
and The Barbarian.
Two genders possible for all classes, if the effort seems worth it.
On the Acts
5 acts with 5 end bosses: Defiler (or better: his successor), Leoric, Na Krul, Aazmodan and Belial.
I could well visualize one of the acts being a morbid and misty area full of swamps and moors, another a classical northern coniferous forest, and a third maybe a river-delta like flooded plains with all sorts of ditches and creeks running through it.
On the Skill/Spell system
Skills can be assigned until they reach skill level 20, but can be increased up to max. level 30 via items. One skill point is granted per level-up.
3 skill trees per character (like in D II) with 6 skills each (one of each skill rank); plus a âsecretâ (i.e.secluded, dingy) place in the town of the last act where skill points can be bought.
Skill ranks (rounded):
clvl 1, (e^ (0=m0) )
clvl 6, (e^ (1.75=m1=m0+1.75) )
clvl 11, (e^ (2,40=m2=m1+0.65) )
clvl 21, (e^ (3,05=m3=m2+0.65) )
clvl 40, (e^ (3,70=m4=m3+0.65) )
clvl 77 (e^ (4,35=m5=m4+0.65) ).
Price formula: (slvl^2)*10000 [gold] + 1 [rune, rlvl]
slvl: clvl required for the spell the first time you put a point in it, see above. rlvl: qlvl of the rune; rlvl must be >=slvl, which makes higher level skill points hard to buy, yet lower level skill points affordable (you donât have to worry about wasting your level-up skill points on low level skills, because you can pump them via gold and low level runes).
Examples:
slvl 1: 10000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=1
slvl 6: 360000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=6
slvl 11: 1210000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=11
slvl 21: 4410000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=21
slvl 40: 16000000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=40
slvl 77: 59290000 gold + 1 rune with rlvl >=77
A character can only buy a skill point if his clvl is high enough to raise the skill manually, for example a level 48 character cannot buy a level 40 skill point if he already has 9 skill points assigned to that skill, he has to wait one more level.
Status points can (every once in a while) be bought from the healer in each town. They cost 500000 gold each, and the attributes strength, vitality, dexterity and magic cannot be raised beyond their âgoldenâ status, their maximum. These maximums are dependant on the character class, like in Diablo I, maybe 255 as the maximum value.
On gold
Up to clvl^2*11000 gold in the inventory (slightly more than what is needed for the appropriate skill ranks for buying skill points). Monsters drop slightly more gold. (Skill points are expensive!). No gold find pre- / suffixes.
Items can be sold to merchants for up to 25000 in normal, 50000 in nightmare and 75000 in hell.
On Items and Unique Items
Less is more. There are only 160 unique items: 100 weapons, 45 armors and 15 amulets/rings.
Rare items can only have 2 prefixes and 2 suffixes.
There are 32 sets. 8 character high level specific sets, 8 low level unspecific sets, 8 mid level unspecific sets and 8 high level unspecific sets.
There are 432 weapons, 144 each in the grades normal, exceptional and elite. There are 12 weapon classes, of which swords, axes , maces and spears can be both one-handed and two-handed, pole-arms, staffs, bows and crossbows can be only two-handed and daggers, wands, orbs and wrist-blades only one-handed.
There are 240 other equipable items, 80 in normal, exceptional and elite: 10 armors, helmets, boots, gloves, shields, belts, rings and amulets. Amulets and Rings are divided into 10 types each, every type has its own requirements of the attribute magic ( 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 ). Maybe items should âwear outâ, that is they lose durability not only during fighting, but also when repaired (similar to the repair skill of the warrior in D I).
On damage types
There are 6 different types of damage: physical, fire, cold, lightning, poison and dark magic.
No monster type is immune to more than 2 damage types, except bosses and act bosses.
On scrolls
Apocalypse and Stone Curse are ârebornâ in form of scrolls like Town Portal or Identify, and are thereby available to all character classes. Stone Curse counts as magic damage and requires level 40 and 80 magic to cast, Apocalypse counts as half physical, half fire (damage: (80-120) * slvl (= 1600-2400 at slvl 20) and requires level 60 and 120 magic to cast (pure melee fighters will have a hard time reaching this, and thatâs just as well).
On monsters
Succubi return as fleeing casters like they were in Diablo I. There are 60 different monster types in each act, each spawn-able in 5 different styles. That adds up to a total of 1500 different monster subtypes in the game. The call for new monster AI and complex behaviour algorithms has been repeated often enough. Iâd like to see them, too, of course.
On the inventory
The inventory is slightly bigger, about 6x10 squares, while the size of the items stays the same.
On the mercenary
The mercenary can carry and drink up to 4 potions (when health < 40%), and has several algorithms that can be adjusted: offensive, defensive, spellcasting, fleeing when health is critical (< 40% and no potion left). Only one mercenary at the same time. Reviving mercenaries costs more, as they are sturdier. Revive cost is mlvl^2*50 gold, where mlvl is clvl of the mercenary.
On potions
Potions fill up life/mana fairly quickly. Faster than in Diablo II, but not instantly like in Diablo I. Mana potions are buyable.
On pre-/suffixes
Return of the moon/stars/heavens/zodiac type of suffix. There are 60 prefixes and 60 suffixes, there is no graphics-intensive â5% chance to cast level 2 xyz when struckâ.
On the graphics
Minimal graphic resolution of 1024x768 (for laptops :) ), expandable to 1280x1024 and up to 1600x1200, but still isometric 3D (people can switch to 3rd person 3D if they want to). Real 3D terrain is required for 3rd person 3D, of course, and might also be attractive when players donât know whatâs lurking behind an upcoming knoll. (perspective in iso? )
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I'm aware that this is written from a DI / DII perspective. I don't see that as a disadvantage, though. DIII has got to do something with its predecessors.
Last but not least, the game needs an excitement factor. Not enough that the name alone would lure us in masses, a really cool new feature could potentize this effect. Remember when we all were looking forward to D II portraying the things you wear? I mean that different inventory items actually do cause a different picture of the hero. Smooooth.
Now itâs up to you to think about a new excitement factor. Something youâve always wanted â name it.
Greetings, Fragbait
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Occhidiangela - 01-19-2006
Fragbait,Jan 19 2006, 06:05 AM Wrote:So here we go:Well, that was pretty extensive. I'll first address the "less is more" issue.
-----------------beginning
Greetings, Fragbait
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Armor and Weapons: Per the Seven Lances Mod, area determines styles available. Fewer styles and names, quality the key driver to improved AC. Any armor bought or traded requires a "cost to make it fit you" expense or you can't wear it without sacrificing some of its benefits, your own agility, etc.
Fewer types, more emphasis on weapon quality to differentiate a good one.
You can put on anything you like, no need to ID it first. That "red you can't wear it" feature was a bad idea.
Cursed items need to come back. :D Odds for a cursed affix should increase with qlvl of affix on an item. Cursed affixes would be a bonus affix, not a replacement of other generally beneficial affix. Curses by class a good idea.
Example: Ring +12 to mana and +15% faster casting rate. Curse: for Warriors only, this subtracts a 2 vitality points, or 2 dexterity points, for Amazon's only, 5% "guaranteed miss' rolled for after every successful to hit roll.
Example: Amulet +1 Assassin skills +22% Resistance to All. Curse: Necromancers lose 7% spell effectiveness in ___ skill tree, Sorceresses lose 15% effectiveness on ____ x Tree spells.
Interaction of weapons' effectiveness against various armor types is worth implementing. Mace better versus some types of armor, not others. Starcraft has a system like this for damage types, as does Warcraft III. I like it.
Weapons again. Styles emphasize a combination of speed, damage and "other attributes" and weapon quality becomes the key ingredient of variation. (Enchantments another topic.) A broadsword is a broadsword. What quality is it? "Damascus steel" and "Toledo Steel" versus less well made steel.
Golf equipment analogy: Are you playing Hogans, Pings, or some poorly balanced knockoff brand? A very skilled warrior can make any sword kill, and a finely made sword's advantage is often lost on the rookie warrior. And so on. Hence, quality and level should interact for evoke the best performance out of a weapon.
Magic. The hardest feature of a game to balance, IMO, is the tech/magic element. I have no answers on this. The key to success, IMO, in balance is how one crafts assymety, synergy, and counters. The tendency toward cheese is extremely hard to overcome.
Character avatars. I like what Guild Wars did with this. YMMV. However, in the "no embedded class attribute" approach the "how do I want to look" is a place where I'd like to see more effort.
Encumbrance. Put it in the game!
Chances for magic to be defluxxed or messed up if near certain flux fields. Gremlins are inside items, by golly, and this needs to be reflected in the game.
Example: A teleport/dimension door ring. If too close to X item or X element in weapons or armor, 5% chance teleport doesn't work, or 5% chance it takes you to other than the place you aimed for.
Uniques: One per realm, game world, etc. Period. That is what a Unique should be. One SoJ in a given realm, server, etc. This opens the door for some great thief, backstab, contextual PvP content, and NPC thieves hunting you down to steal the Unique. The quest for the Holy Grail can go on forever as the item gets used and stolen and used and stolen . . . It can be stolen by an NPC if left in a stash long enough, or if the char isn't played for "x" number of days. "There is no security." :lol:
Uniques have to be designed with extreme care. Bragging about having the only SoJ starts to be less wise, information on the whereabouts of a Unique becomes a pricey commodity.
Uniques should have some attributes that No Other item can hold, and some attributes that other items can hold. Uniques should have egos (per AD & D) that interact with a players clvl.
Rares: The general case of high end magical items should be rares. I like the way Rares in Diablo II were implemented conceptually, they tended to eclipse Uniques in variety and raw power. Garbage affixes watering down the Rares needs to go, see previous comment on chance of a curse on high end, and of item ego interacting with char.
NPC AI: reputation and faction alignment variations in WoW are a good enough idea to implement at some level in Diablo III.
I agree that MF and GF are bad ideas.
Leech should be skill based. If on an iterm, on either a unique or an extremely rare on item. This allows for meaningful ebay sales. :lol: (Sorry)
PvP and duels: Generally, if you lose the duel, your opponent gets to loot you for one, two, three or all of your items. An option to have a loot free duel switch, of course, which means consensual honor duels are also viable, whereas generally duelling can cost you everything. So long as the can carry them and your seconds don't immediately swarm him and kill him . . . This is along the theme of Encumbrance meaning something.
Yes, I know this opens the door to ganking and the need for PvP to be administered either on separate servers or via a series of flags, menues, choices.
Runes, charms and gems: good ideas, to be sure, revamp needed on how to implement them.
Crafting: a staple of RPG's. So many ways to approach this, and I'd suggest quests to find materials are a great place to use for "instanced" gaming settings.
I don't see how Diablo III won't be a pay for play. The business models keep changing in that direction.
Other concerns:
1. Diablo III has the potential to be an XBOX 360 game. The line between the PC and the gaming console is blurring. With Mac moving to Intel Dual Core . . . a convergence seems to loom.
2. The rascal in me would love to see Diablo III released "only on PsP" just for the furor that would erupt, but I suspect that won't happen. Unless Sony makes it worth Blizzard's while with a big check.
Occhi
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - jahcs - 01-19-2006
First, change your title to "Forum Necromancer" :P
Second, On the minimum resolution I would suggest 800x600 not 1024x768. It may make compatability with older/slower computers easier.
Most of the newer games coming out still get played at lower resolutions and higher detail settings also.
No paladin and 3 casters?
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Occhidiangela - 01-19-2006
jahcs,Jan 19 2006, 10:47 AM Wrote:No paladin and 3 casters?I don't see the problem.
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The Warrior,
The Shaman,
The Amazon,
The Thief,
The Witch,
The Sorcerer,
The Ninja
The Barbarian.
Of course, Amazon is a Warrior, gender being the only difference. Barbarian likewise, warrior absent the advantages of civilization/tech?
A Shaman could be considered "cleric" depending on the root culture.
So, it isn't really 8 classes, is it?
Let a Paladin be a warrior defined by gear and behavior, rather than mixing classes.
Occhi
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - [wcip]Angel - 01-19-2006
Loose thoughts concerning the next instalment of Diablo
* Although I liked the suggestions for Lemming regarding the bosses, there can be noe "Diablo"-game, without "Diablo"-monster for obvious reasons.
* A stronger emphasis on story and plot. There should be a multiplayer aspect, and it should be as streamlined and efficient as that of D2, but the heart and soul(stone) of Diablo should be a well crafted story, parallel to that of a modern novel. Storytelling *can* occur in other formats than pre-rendered cinematic sequences.
* In connection with my last point, I'd like to see a little less linearity and more emphasis on action and consequences. Think Deus Ex, where everything you do has a consequence down the line. Challenge: how to implement this into a multiplayer-game.
* Perspective. Optional 1st-person, or 'chase-view' similar to that of Resident Evil 4.
![[Image: 535840_20050107_screen002.jpg]](http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/006/reviews/535840_20050107_screen002.jpg)
* Mini-boss: Wirt the Undead. Invulnerable to all weapons! Can only be clubbed to death with his own leg!
* There is no Zealot-level!
Hmmf. Now I want to play Diablo II again. *looks for CDs*
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - jahcs - 01-19-2006
Occhidiangela,Jan 19 2006, 09:05 AM Wrote:I don't see the problem. Â
Occhi
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I liked the Paladin's auras. Of course if the mercs are sturdier and they get aura-like powers then there isn't an issue.
Of course Blizzard could abolish character classes and go for a Dungeon Siege or Morrowind like XP system too. :wacko:
Sure Occhi, I see your little game. Edit your reply while I craft mine... :lol:
And [wcip]Angel, a perspective like that would make it crucial that you not let yourself be surrounded in a fight. It would lead to some interesting combats and the "less is more" philosophy could lend itself to more involved combat against fewer creatures - instead of the click fest that is Diablo 2.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Occhidiangela - 01-19-2006
[wcip]Angel,Jan 19 2006, 11:07 AM Wrote:* Mini-boss: Wirt the Undead. Invulnerable to all weapons! Can only be clubbed to death with his own leg!Wirt the undead can be bought off, of course, if you give him enough money! Something about dead presidents . . . dead kings . . . it could work.
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As to the Zealot level . . . what is wrong with tossing some Protoss into the Diablo III world? Tech-Psionics versus magic, Go Go Go!
Occhi
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - kandrathe - 01-19-2006
I thought WOW was three way. You have the horde and alliance fighting against each other in petty land squabbles, while the real enemy we both are fighting is the demonic Burning Crusade seeking to destroy our worlds altogether.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Occhidiangela - 01-19-2006
jahcs,Jan 19 2006, 11:12 AM Wrote:Sure Occhi, I see your little game. Edit your reply while I craft mine... :lol:Sorry, I meant to hit preview, and I missed.
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DOH! :blink:
Occhi
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - whyBish - 01-20-2006
Occhidiangela,Jan 20 2006, 05:39 AM Wrote:[right][snapback]99653[/snapback][/right]
My two cents:
Diablo 3 => Oblivion engine modded to have selectable skill trees, Equipment stats /randomisation/crafting, encounter randomisation, and online play via BNet :P
My one idea I would have liked in D2 was the option to select skill trees. Have one utility tree per player (which determines the class, or maybe the offensive tree would suit better), one 'offensive' tree and one 'defensive' tree
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - ima_nerd - 01-20-2006
The Oblivion physics engine allows too much enviroment manipulation for an online game, in my opinion. If they dumb down D3 to the level of WoW as far as the skill trees and attribute points are concerned, I will be mighty pissed.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Occhidiangela - 01-20-2006
ima_nerd,Jan 20 2006, 12:26 AM Wrote:The Oblivion physics engine allows too much enviroment manipulation for an online game, in my opinion. If they dumb down D3 to the level of WoW as far as the skill trees and attribute points are concerned, I will be mighty pissed.Is the Oblivion engine in the same league as the Half Life 2 engine that got rave reviews?
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Occhi
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - [wcip]Angel - 01-20-2006
It's better. Don't ask me how, but I'm pretty sure it is.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - ima_nerd - 01-20-2006
I was under the impression it was very similar. It's called the Havok engine.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - SwissMercenary - 01-21-2006
[wcip]Angel,Jan 20 2006, 05:06 PM Wrote:It's better. Don't ask me how, but I'm pretty sure it is.
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I think you've confused the physics engine with the graphics engine here. Unless Oblivion has a newer and vastly superior version of Havoc (And as good as it is, there is plenty of stuff that can be improved on it).
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - [wcip]Angel - 01-21-2006
I'm sure I have, SwissMerc :)
I'm just so floored by the graphics.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - ima_nerd - 01-21-2006
Quote:I'm just so floored by the graphics.
Who isn't? :D
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Ammonium - 01-23-2006
SwissMercenary,Jan 21 2006, 11:55 AM Wrote:I think you've confused the physics engine with the graphics engine here. Unless Oblivion has a newer and vastly superior version of Havoc (And as good as it is, there is plenty of stuff that can be improved on it).
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I'm not quite sure but I believe that Oblivion will indeed use the Havok engine.
Blizzard ready to make Diablo 3? - Fragbait - 01-23-2006
Occhidiangela,Jan 19 2006, 05:39 PM Wrote:Magic. The hardest feature of a game to balance, IMO, is the tech/magic element. I have no answers on this. The key to success, IMO, in balance is how one crafts assymety, synergy, and counters. The tendency toward cheese is extremely hard to overcome. Hi,
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On the relation between skills and patches
In Diablo I, everyone could learn the same spells (basically), and changes made to them over time (patches) affected all character classes.
In Diablo II, every character class had its own spells, and since the balancing has always been a difficult task, every patch changed the way certain spells work, and thereby changed the value of the character subclasses (âWW-Barbâ,âStrafe-Bowamaâ). This was invigorating for long-time fun and annoying at the same time, since it rendered some of oneâs hard-earned characters pretty inferior.
Now, how can this be improved? Do we want a universal spell system similar to the one in D I again? I donât think so. While it is fun, one has to admit that there are only a handful of spells that are generally used â Iâm thinking Fireball, Chain Lightning, Stone Curse, Mana Shield, Healing, Town Portal. Additionally I would take Fire Wall, Golem (Sorcerers sometimes), Lightning and Guardian in. This actually limits the different actions, and we see all âcaster-likeâ classes use the same effective spells, and all âfighter-likeâ classes use the same defense spells and not much more.
The D II skill system has its advantages where eye-candy, diversion and plurality is concerned. What can be done to limit/abandon the drawbacks? If D III granted each character class some own spells, and some spells available to all classes, would that help? Iâm thinking of 10 general spells, and maybe 2 skill trees with each 10 spells class-specific (or, for consistency's sake - 3 x 6). For example there could be a âsweeping blowâ â barbarian [the main skill] with heavy focus on the âtotemâ tree [a bit like paladin auras / druid helpers], that would at the same time be able to cast âstone curseâ and âmana shieldâ and âhealingâ like all other classes.
Letâs run through it:
Every class has access to the same vital spells: check.
Thereâs diversion and room for eye-candy: check.
Characters arenât rendered useless via patches: no clear vote here. Patches could still nerf the major class specific spells and therefore significantly weaken the char.
How can this be avoided? 3 methods:
1. Abandon balance changes in patching.
2. Make balance changes in patching insignificant.
3. Let players alter their skill point setup when they see that a patch rendered their chars inferior.
Now, letâs face it: 1. is nearly impossible to implement. Programmers must have an option to nerf a class that seems to have passed by playtesting and got a clear advantage.
2. unfortunately is a contradiction in itself. If the balance change does alter next to nothing, why make it. Leaves us with 3. How can this be implemented?
In D II this was possible via cheat programs. Obviously this should not be promoted. An option could be to let players re-allocate all their skill-points whenever a new patch is released. Once allocated, however, these skill points canât be altered again. Thereby players would be forced to inform themselves about the new patch, which skills / spells are strong now? Then they could make their new decisions.
The question is whether thatâs desirable, or whether it doesnât hurt to have patches crucially nerf certain chars. A patch just literally destroyed your char? So what! Make a new one, thatâs more fun anyway!
Iâm not sure to which side Iâm leaning at the moment. I havenât decided, yet.
Greetings, Fragbait