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Warlock Changes coming - kandrathe - 03-07-2005

Drasca,Mar 4 2005, 08:04 PM Wrote:The so called promised fixes are red herrings. Throw us a bone and expect me to lap-dog happily? Uh uh. I want prime rib.

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So if Blizzard would make a lvl 40 minimum requirement, 12 slot, shard only bag that allows shards to stack in 5's say, that would solve the high level warlocks problems? Perhaps also create a warlock shard vendor in some high level areas, like Gadgetzan, Winter, UnGoro, Azshara?

Also, while the higher levels stones are more desirable, the lvl 40ish soulstones are passable for many raids. Couldn't it be feasible for the raid to utilize lower level warlocks for equiping the soulstones for the raid?

Warlock Changes coming - Treesh - 03-07-2005

Drasca,Mar 4 2005, 07:04 PM Wrote:Completely wrong. Moreso as you'll level to higher and higher levels where most to almost all enemies do not count toward soul shard creation. No exp gain = no soul shard. [right][snapback]69780[/snapback][/right]
Not to sound argumentative, but does it really change that drastically at 40? Gnolack and Aleri are 38 now and almost all the critters they fight are 41-42 (with the occasional 43 or 44 if we're feeling tough) right now. I can see issues at high 50s and 60 (or more precisely I can imagine that quite easily), but I just can't see such a drastic change in just a couple of levels away. Is it because we're duoing that causes us to go through quests faster than our level gains for the area and that's where our misunderstanding is coming from? I think that's my biggest issue with the soul shard question. Why are warlocks fighting so many critters that are grey to them and my characters aren't?

Edit: Don't need an 's' on 60 because of the cap. Foolish girl.

Warlock Changes coming - MongoJerry - 03-07-2005

kandrathe,Mar 7 2005, 12:49 PM Wrote:Also, while the higher levels stones are more desirable, the lvl 40ish soulstones are passable for many raids.  Couldn't it be feasible for the raid to utilize lower level warlocks for equiping the soulstones for the raid?

Soulshards are soulbound, so I guess what you mean is using a level 40 warlock mule to provide porting services and initial soulstones? I suppose that could work, but you'd still have to farm shards with that mule before the raid. A high level warlock could go farm soulshards in a higher level area to get enough soulshards, too, though, so I'm not sure how much benefit this would be.

The problem is that warlocks have few opportunities to replenish soulshards *during* the raid. In a place like Molten Core or Onyxia, it takes a massive amount of effort on the part of a raid group of forty just to kill a single mob. It's likely you are going to (or at least you'd like to) expend many soulshards during a raid battle with healthstones, soulstones, summoning of dead pets, and even use some warlock spells that require soulshards. What's more, raid instances take several hours (I spent four hours in Molten Core last night in an efficient group and we only killed two named bosses), and soulstones run out after 30 mins if they aren't used. Unfortunately, you only get one soulshard back once any given battle is over, and your proverbial level 40 mule warlock is outside the instance where he or she can't do you any good.

It seems like there are two solutions to this: First, let warlocks have a soulshard bag that can store a massive number of soulshards should the warlock choose to go farm them. Second, raid mobs should give multiple soulshards when they die to help replenish warlock soulshard stocks.

Warlock Changes coming - Arethor - 03-07-2005

Treesh,Mar 7 2005, 03:57 PM Wrote:Is it because we're duoing that causes us to go through quests faster than our level gains for the area and that's where our misunderstanding is coming from?  I think that's my biggest issue with the soul shard question.  Why are warlocks fighting so many critters that are grey to them and my characters aren't?
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I'm guessing atleast in my case it's probably because I like to take my time in an area and try to finish off all the quests and that I'm soloing 99% of the time, which leads to me usually outleveling an area before leaving it and making shards harder to acquire. Of course I could probably solve this easily by going to an area that is more suited to my level but then I'd have to end up abandoning more quests.

Warlock Changes coming - kandrathe - 03-07-2005

MongoJerry,Mar 7 2005, 04:06 PM Wrote:Soulshards are soulbound, so I guess what you mean is using a level 40 warlock mule to provide porting services and initial soulstones?  I suppose that could work, but you'd still have to farm shards with that mule before the raid.  A high level warlock could go farm soulshards in a higher level area to get enough soulshards, too, though, so I'm not sure how much benefit this would be.

The problem is that warlocks have few opportunities to replenish soulshards *during* the raid.  In a place like Molten Core or Onyxia, it takes a massive amount of effort on the part of a raid group of forty just to kill a single mob.  It's likely you are going to (or at least you'd like to) expend many soulshards during a raid battle with healthstones, soulstones, summoning of dead pets, and even use some warlock spells that require soulshards.  What's more, raid instances take several hours (I spent four hours in Molten Core last night in an efficient group and we only killed two named bosses), and soulstones run out after 30 mins if they aren't used.  Unfortunately, you only get one soulshard back once any given battle is over, and your proverbial level 40 mule warlock is outside the instance where he or she can't do you any good.
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Yes, I envisioned the organized raid utilizing the services of underlings to prepare the masters for the battle. Their recompense being a token share of the masters loot. :) But, utilizing the underlings this way makes them useful to the "guild", at least for the preparation. In Instance, the master must fend for himself with the shards he has brought along, so yes, extra carrying capacity and the ability to replenish in instance is critical. But, I think the underlings can certainly relieve the master from the drudgery of summoning and equiping the group before entry into the instance.

MongoJerry,Mar 7 2005, 04:06 PM Wrote:It seems like there are two solutions to this:  First, let warlocks have a soulshard bag that can store a massive number of soulshards should the warlock choose to go farm them.  Second, raid mobs should give multiple soulshards when they die to help replenish warlock soulshard stocks.
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I think both would be nice.

Warlock Changes coming - Treesh - 03-07-2005

Arethor,Mar 7 2005, 03:15 PM Wrote:I'm guessing atleast in my case it's probably because I like to take my time in an area and try to finish off all the quests and that I'm soloing 99% of the time, which leads to me usually outleveling an area before leaving it and making shards harder to acquire.  Of course I could probably solve this easily by going to an area that is more suited to my level but then I'd have to end up abandoning more quests.
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It must be the soloing vs duoing that's the difference then because GG and I try to do all quests before moving onto another area too. We don't like to travel all over the place often so we try to set up camp in one area, do all the quests in that area, and then maybe take a day to clear up the straggling quests (the ones that run you out of the particular area you're working in) to get them out of the log without having to abandon them. Thanks for answering. :)

Warlock Changes coming - bonemage - 03-07-2005

Treesh,Mar 7 2005, 12:57 PM Wrote:Not to sound argumentative, but does it really change that drastically at 40?  Gnolack and Aleri are 38 now and almost all the critters they fight are 41-42 (with the occasional 43 or 44 if we're feeling tough) right now.  I can see issues at high 50s and 60 (or more precisely I can imagine that quite easily), but I just can't see such a drastic change in just a couple of levels away.  Is it because we're duoing that causes us to go through quests faster than our level gains for the area and that's where our misunderstanding is coming from?  I think that's my biggest issue with the soul shard question.  Why are warlocks fighting so many critters that are grey to them and my characters aren't?

Edit: Don't need an 's' on 60 because of the cap.  Foolish girl.
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I can't speak for capped characters, but whether you gain exp or not from a kill is based off of a percentage of your level vs. the mob level. At lower levels, this is around 5 levels, meaning a mob 5 levels below you give exp, but 6 levels doesn't. At level 47 (where I'm at), it's around 10 levels or so. At level 60 (unless the rules are changed at that point) I don't think finding areas with 50 level mobs is that difficult. The warlock is strong solo character, and outside non-elite mobs are cake to farm for shards. It takes some time and preparation (I always stock up the night before an instance run) but isn't a big deal. All it really takes is to hop a flight somewhere appropriate level and kill a few things. I've not read anywhere about how this works at cap, so I doubt the rules change at that point. Can anyone confirm what levels are still at least green at level 60?

I don't see anything wrong with PvE solo or in smaller groups. Raiding seems to be an issue, and PvP clearly is not right, but availability of shards in PvE isn't an issue. If everything is grey in an area for you, it's time to move on...

I don't want to be perceived as whining about the warlock class. It isn't perfect, but it is a fun and rewarding class that I completely LOVE playing.

Tip o' the day: Teach your mage friends about curse of shadows and curse of elements and be sure to use those curses for them. They'll love you for it!

Warlock Changes coming - bonemage - 03-07-2005

Treesh,Mar 7 2005, 03:30 PM Wrote:It must be the soloing vs duoing that's the difference then because GG and I try to do all quests before moving onto another area too.  We don't like to travel all over the place often so we try to set up camp in one area, do all the quests in that area, and then maybe take a day to clear up the straggling quests (the ones that run you out of the particular area you're working in) to get them out of the log without having to abandon them.  Thanks for answering.  :)
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I solo almost all of the time, except in our weekly instance runs. I don't have issues getting shards in PvE. If an area/quest is grey, I don't stick around unless the quest reward is great, and that doesn't happen too much. Anyone who sticks to a grey area for a long time is really hurting their level pace and progress. Plus, if you're only fighting greys, you likely won't ever need the skills that use shards or ever resummon your pet, unless you happen to pull 6+ at a time.

To try and make this clearer, I think it has less to do with solo play vs. party play as it has to do with a player's choice of quests/areas.

Warlock Changes coming - Lissa - 03-07-2005

Drasca,Mar 7 2005, 09:49 AM Wrote:One time? Only one? I am skeptical. Its supposed to have 10% chance, and there are up to 15 waves. That means stunning average of 1.5 times per hellfire. Is it really that?
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Unfortuneatly, it's not per tick like it was in Beta, it is now at the start of the cast. Even still, using Rain or Hellfire with 4 mobs says that the odds of none of those 4 mobs getting stunned with 2 points into Pyroclasm is about 30%. That means that in the above instance, 1 of those 4 mobs should be hit 70% of the time with a stun. This is not what has been observed by the Warlock community. Instead, the Warlock community has seen it appear to be about 90% of the time that none of the 4 mobs are effected, which means that Pyroclasm is giving about a 2.6% chance per mob to stun instead of the 26% chance that it should be.

Warlock Changes coming - Treesh - 03-07-2005

bonemage,Mar 7 2005, 04:40 PM Wrote:To try and make this clearer, I think it has less to do with solo play vs. party play as it has to do with a player's choice of quests/areas.
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In that specific post I was talking about the difference between Arethor and our characters only. Since we do things very similarly but he's fighting greys and we're fighting mostly oranges, that specific difference is probably due to solo vs duo. You do make a good point about it doing with player's choice of quests and areas, but when those are similar there is still a difference.

Edit: Oh, and thanks for your input about shards in PvE post level 40.

Warlock Changes coming - Arnath - 03-08-2005

Drasca,Mar 7 2005, 11:49 AM Wrote:One time? Only one? I am skeptical. Its supposed to have 10% chance, and there are up to 15 waves. That means stunning average of 1.5 times per hellfire. Is it really that?
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Perhaps "working fine" was an overstatement. Just saying that it DOES stun at least once in a while.


Warlock Changes coming - Ruvanal - 03-08-2005

bonemage,Mar 7 2005, 06:32 PM Wrote:I can't speak for capped characters, but whether you gain exp or not from a kill is based off of a percentage of your level vs. the mob level.  At lower levels, this is around 5 levels, meaning a mob 5 levels below you give exp, but 6 levels doesn't.  At level 47 (where I'm at), it's around 10 levels or so.  At level 60 (unless the rules are changed at that point) I don't think finding areas with 50 level mobs is that difficult.  The warlock is strong solo character, and outside non-elite mobs are cake to farm for shards.  It takes some time and preparation (I always stock up the night before an instance run) but isn't a big deal.  All it really takes is to hop a flight somewhere appropriate level and kill a few things.  I've not read anywhere about how this works at cap, so I doubt the rules change at that point.  Can anyone confirm what levels are still at least green at level 60?
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The minimum level of mob to get experience was changed in the early stages of beta to a formula like this

MIN(char_level-5,char_level-char_level/5)

So providing that this is the same formula that is being used in the game; a level 60 character should still have level 48 mobs showing as green to them.

MIN(60-5,60-60/5)=MIN(55,60-12)=MIN(55,48)=48

Some one with a level 60 character could go look at some mobs of levels 47 to 50 to see for sure which ones still show as green. Others could run the formula for their respective level to see if it matches also.