Treesh,Mar 14 2005, 09:44 AM Wrote:And when I'm a priest with no mage in the party, I am really not going to give up my found drinks to a warlock.  They can still be effective even with low mana. 
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Drasca,Mar 15 2005, 12:05 AM Wrote:The groups shouted in Ogrimmar all seem to want 5 man groups, not giant raids.

Drasca,Mar 15 2005, 01:05 AM Wrote:I still ask for drinks from mage though. However. . . warlocks have a synergistic relationship with mages. (Mage + WL ftw btw). Trade hconjured healthstone for conjured water. Curse of element/shadow increase damage. Soulstone the Priest. What's not to like? Poly, seduce, burn, fear off caster. Healthstone saves life... or extends life. Lots of "Oh snap" boons.[right][snapback]70780[/snapback][/right]

Drasca,Mar 15 2005, 01:05 AM Wrote:Asking Mage for conjured water just make's everyone's lives easier, especially if you're the priest. Faster mana gain, buffs back faster and more often, heals back, mana topped off, the works. Don't hestitate to politely ask for water! [right][snapback]70780[/snapback][/right]

Treesh,Mar 15 2005, 10:22 AM Wrote:I don't ask them for water because most of the mages I group with always offer water to the party right away.  :D If they don't offer, they're usually twits [right][snapback]70805[/snapback][/right]

• In the beta, when Blizzard first introduced instances with mob groups made of a mix of elite and nonelites, some mages realized, "Hey! If I aoe here, my dps will be huge!"<>
  
• Then the aggressive item farmer/achiever types realized, "Hey! If we brought along a couple of mages and warlocks, we could aoe the mother out of these guys and blow through this instance!"<>
  
• The general player population found out about all the phat loot that the aggressive item farmers got, found out that the farmers used aoe attacks to do it, and so started imitating the item farmers' techniques (often missing out on some key details), including always inviting mages into parties to aoe.<>
  
• Newer players got told simply, "AoE the little guys, kill the elites," without any explanation of why or when this was a good idea.<>
  
• These instructions got solidified into dogma, so that players now think that only AoE attacks should be used to kill nonelite mobs.<>
  [st]The problem I have with this mentality is that it frequently contradicts my own well tested system of dealing with groups of normal mobs:
  
  1. Crowd control as many elites as you can.<>
     
  2. Kill any mobs that summon additional mobs.<>
     
  3. Kill all nonelite mobs. (Some players don't understand this, but it's simple. Nonelite mobs die fast, so you reduce the mob damage output quickly this way. Additionally, you reduce the shear number of mobs involved in the fight, making the fight less chaotic and more easily controlled).<>
     
  4. Kill all uncontrolled elites.<>
     
  5. Kill all crowd controlled elites one at a time.<>
     [st](Note: Boss fights have to be taken on a case-by-case basis, since no set rule works in every situation. Sometimes you'll want to kill the minions first and leave the boss for last, and other times you'll want to focus on the boss first).
     
     The trouble with using the AoE-only tactic for killing nonelites is that you're basically trying to do steps three and four at once, and you end up spreading your damage over many mobs at once, letting the mobs live longer and deal more damage than they ordinarily would have. Worse, a good portion of the mob damage will be directed at the mage, who as I often tell people, is made of paper mache. If you don't have enough AoE power in the party, at best you end up with an exhausted mage and priest who have to drink for a full minute after each battle, slowing down a raid party. Other times, you end up with dead mages. At worst, you end up with a dead mage, priest, and then a full party wipe.
     
     
     
     Enough general chit-chat. How do you kill the spiders in Lower Blackrock Spire? Most of the spider clusters come with two large elite Spiders and five nonelite Spiderlings. When you kill the elite Spiders, five additional Spiderlings spawn out of its body. (Blizzard caved, so in the upcoming patch, only four Spiderlings will spawn when the Spiders die). In addition, the elite Spiders can cast a short range area-of-effect spell called Crystalize that stuns players for eight seconds. Crystalize can be dispelled by priests, however, so it's important for priests to try to stay out of range of the elite Spiders so that they themselves don't get Crystalized when other partymembers do.
     
     The standard tactic is to have the mage sheep pull one of the elite spiders and then have the party's warrior tank the other elite spider. (If you have a druid in the party, he or she can also sleep one of the elite spiders. If you have a mage and a druid or two mages or two druids in the party, obviously these fights are easy). What your party does from here to kill the non-elite spiders depends on your party's configuration.
     
     The AoE-only technique: If your party has two or more mages and/or warlocks, then go for it. Blast away. If you additionally have a shaman dropping fire totems or a hunter throwing up a volley, even better. You have my blessing to AoE the mother out of everything. In this case, it doesn't make much sense to have other members of the party killing the nonelites, because by the time, say, a rogue gets two swings in, all the nonelites will be dead. You might as well save some time and have the non-AoEers start killing the elite Spider the warrior is tanking. The AoEers should remember that there are three waves of little Spiderlings coming and conserve mana accordingly, however.
     
     If your party has only one mage or warlock, however, the AoE-only tactic is a terrible idea and so many parties -- raid parties even! -- get wiped or partially wiped here, because they insist on using this tactic even though they don't have enough AoE power to make it work. Examples of things that can go wrong are (seen them, done them):
     • Five spiderlings can deliver a lot of damage, and after eating through the PW:Shield (Note to non-priests: A priest shield is not an invulnerability shield. After about 1k damage is taken, it's gone and can't be recast for 15 seconds), the spiders can get some lucky crits and take a mage down faster than a priest can Flash Heal. Any lag on the priest's part can also be an issue, since you have a razorthin margin of error.<>
       
     • The other partymembers can sometimes (especially in raid parties) kill the elite Spider faster than a mage can kill the nonelite spiderlings. Five additional spiderlings jump out of the corpse and get hit by the mage's arcane explosion. 10 spiderlings hitting the mage = dead mage.<>
       
     • A mage can run out of mana before finishing off the second set of spiderlings. A spiderling with 10% life hits just as hard as a spiderling with 100% life. Five spiders hitting a mage and not dying themselves = dead mage.<>
       
     • The priest can run out of mana. It takes a lot of mana to keep a mage alive through all that pounding.<>
       
     • The warrior and others can get Cystalized by the elite Spider, and then the Spider can rush to attack the priest. The priest dispels Cystalize on the warrior and Fades. Oh, yeah, the mage hasn't been healed during this time. Dead mage.<>
       [st]At this point, I'm expecting a barrage of "Hey, I'm a mage and me and my buddy so-n-so-priest managed to kill the spiders without dying." Yes, I'm sure you're awesome. With great effort and practice, I'm sure you can make the AoE-only tactic sort of work. But the point of all of this discussion is that by using the AoE-only method when your party doesn't have enough AoE power, you give yourselves far less room for error and end up placing yourselves in way more danger than necessary. There's a much better way, and it's simply what everyone should have been doing all along.
       
       The AoE-plus method: The AoE-plus method simply says that after sheeping and establishing the tanking on the elites, it is everyone's job to kill the nonelites. This is true whether you are killing spiderlings in LBRS or skeletons on the streets of Stratholme. The party's mage is welcome to AoE to his or her heart's content. However, the other members of the party should kill the nonelites as well. This tactic takes an enormous amount of pressure off the party's mage and priest and benefits the party in many ways. First, the spiderlings simply die faster. Second, when other members of the party (e.g. the rogue and shaman in my group) deal direct damage to individual spiderlings, they'll pull aggro off the mage, reducing the pounding the mage receives and also spreading out the damage being dealt to the party. This allows the priest to effectively use his or her group healing spell, Prayer of Healing, the most powerful and mana efficient healing spell at a priest's disposal when three or more players need healing.
       
       Third, since the mage isn't being pounded on by five mobs at once, the party's priest has more flexibility about choosing who to heal and what to do. The priest can heal the tank or take a few moments to remove Crystalize from partymembers, for example, without worrying that the mage will die in the process. Finally, having everyone kill the nonelites saves both the mage's and priest's mana, so they'll both have something left when the third set of spiderlings pop out.
       
       
       
       That's it. That's all there is to it. I know that some of you were hoping to learn a secret tactic like, "If you jump on this rock, you can blast the spiders without taking any damage." I'm sorry to disappoint you. "Kill the nonelites first" is all I got for you. And guess what? Our party made it through all seven spider fights without a single death or even any scary near-death moments.
       
       After the first cluster of spiders, you'll run into the spider boss, Mother Smolderweb. She's a quest boss who'll poison you with the Mother's Milk that will periodically cast a web to root either you or one of your partymembers for a few seconds. The quest, given in Burning Steppes, is to return to the questgiver while still poisoned and let the NPC "milk" you. (The poison lasts two hours, as I recall). The problem is that no partymembers in their right minds will let you actually keep this poison on you for the remainder of the run. Pretty much the only practical way to complete this quest is to hearth out of the instance, fly to the NPC in Flame Crest, let the NPC milk you, ride back to Blackrock Spire, and then have a warlock summon you back to your party -- that is, if your party hasn't booted you from the party out of exasperation. The reward is only some cash, and there's no followup. This quest is only for the most severe questaholics. For everyone else, there are anti-venom sacs that drop off the spiderlings that will cure the poison.
       
       There's also a rare spider miniboss that sometimes spawns here, but I've only seen him a couple of times and didn't see him on these trips.
       
       
       
       After Mother Smolderweb comes a solitary patrol Spider that can be pulled individually. Then, you walk on some large iron support beams (seen in the screenshot above). There's a group of spiders on the left as you walk along the beams, and you can easily walk past them by keeping to right side of the path. Unfortunately, our shaman during the third run didn't do this and ended up pulling the whole spider group while a couple of us were already getting ready for the pull in front of us. Before we could turn around and come back, it was too late, and we had our final wipe (recall that this was the shaman who didn't carry ankhs with him). Actually, we almost pulled it off anyway, and looking back on it, I think there might have been enough room to have used fear kiting. Oh, well. Hindsight's 20-20.
       
       In addition, the server crashed right as the second group got to the spider lair, so everything from here on out is describing what happened during the first run.
       
       
       
       Yet more spiders. Another quest from Flame Crest, in the Burning Steppes, asks you to collect spider eggs from the egg sacs you see all around the lair. Sometimes spiderlings will jump out when you open the egg sacks, so be ready whenever someone opens a sac. Most of the time, it's only a couple of spiderlings that jump out, but I saw five jump out of an egg sac one time, so be careful.
       
       
       
       Between the dead spiders and spiderlings, things get a little messy after a fight.
       
       
       
       After a couple more fights, we started to see the end. In the screenshot above, you can see the bridge into Omokk's chamber, guarded by a respawned ogre. One more group of spiders to go.
       
       
       
       Done. I think the feelings of the party can be best expressed in this witty and immortal exchange:
       
       Eon: finally :D
       Aixelsyd: yeah no kidding
       
       
       UP NEXT: Bugs, Quartermasters, and Dogs, oh my!

Gurnsey,Mar 16 2005, 12:20 PM Wrote:One question:&nbsp; maybe it sounds longer in the telling than the actual experience, but it seems like your trips into this instance were marathon runs - is there any feeling of weariness at some point where it's just too much, or does the changing mobs and strategies in the different parts of the dungeon keep everything fresh?

MongoJerry,Mar 16 2005, 07:43 PM Wrote:RandomRogue: Without a mage, how do we kill the little skeletons?
(pause)
Neriad: You stab them.

lemekim,Mar 18 2005, 03:07 PM Wrote:Do you think he might have meant the little skeletons that come after Ramstein? If you had a shaman though you probably could still deal with those (or a stock of Holy Water) and with critter spawns in gated areas.

Magicbag,Mar 31 2005, 07:40 AM Wrote:Our Mind Control pulls work just a bit differently than yours.&nbsp; We try to minimize the beating the MC'd mob takes by making sure that only 3 or less others are beating on him.&nbsp; If there's more, sheep or sap until you're down to 3v1 or less.&nbsp; Then MC the most dangerous foe.&nbsp; The party then proceeds to assist the MC'd target on the next most dangerous mob.&nbsp; With luck and practice you can almost always ensure 2 dead mobs before the pull really starts.

After, you can use sheep to handle one.&nbsp; So even with a 5 pull, you're looking at 1 full mob, one breaking sap soon, and finally the sheep.&nbsp; Still managable for a 5 man.

MongoJerry,Mar 15 2005, 09:37 PM Wrote:UP NEXT: Bugs, Quartermasters, and Dogs, oh my!
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Boutros,Apr 2 2005, 03:02 AM Wrote:Oh really?

MongoJerry,Apr 2 2005, 10:18 AM Wrote:Graduate E&M take-home midterm takes priority -- both preparation for it and now taking it.&nbsp; The ending will come eventually, when I have the time.
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