SetBuilder,Apr 15 2005, 01:45 PM Wrote:According to statisctics, the highest percentage of drug related deaths comes straight from alcohol. The highest percentage of drug related crime comes straight from alcohol. What's more, the highest amount of drug related medical issues comes from alcohol (followed closely by tobacco).

I'd say alcohol is the worst there is, apparently. Forget the other crap.
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gekko,Apr 15 2005, 01:50 PM Wrote:Crack is a more pure version of cocaine.  And that, actually, is the same concept behind my entire argument.

That one can become addicted to anything does not mean we should legalize everything.  Some substances are much more likely to be the source of addiction and abuse.  Can I tell you exactly where we should draw that line?  Absolutely not.  Does that mean we shouldn't bother trying?  Absolutely not.

Ask someone who works in a drug rehab facility why cocaine is a hard drug, and why its effects are essentially guaranteed to be harmful to everyone involved.

I can drive faster than 90 km/h on the highway without causing an accident.  Does that mean we shouldn't have a speed limit?

Our inablility to precisely define when something becomes inherently dangerous doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

gekko
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Tal,Apr 15 2005, 01:14 PM Wrote:I will grant that this is a tenuous and circumstantial evidence but it certainly bears more investigation.
:)
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SetBuilder,Apr 15 2005, 02:45 PM Wrote:According to statisctics, the highest percentage of drug related deaths comes straight from alcohol. The highest percentage of drug related crime comes straight from alcohol. What's more, the highest amount of drug related medical issues comes from alcohol (followed closely by tobacco).

I'd say alcohol is the worst there is, apparently. Forget the other crap.
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ShadowHM,Apr 15 2005, 02:07 PM Wrote:I think you are confusing public safety with personal responsibility.

You would decide for others what is a sufficient source of addiction and abuse for them?   

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Quote:Your car analogy does not hold up.  You 'could' stay accident free at high speeds - until you find yourself about to hit someone who just turned onto the highway and doesn't have that 1-90 in three seconds kind of car.  ;)  (That was pointed out to my husband one fine day when his driving record brought him in for an interview, many years ago.)

Quote:If you take a drug, you are still responsible for your behaviour while on that drug.  Our Supreme Court threw that one out the window some time ago when a rapist tried to use the 'but I was too drunk to realize' argument.

Quote:..."Retailers will take the abuse when their poor customers are so angry they have to jump through all these hoops to buy cough syrup," said Linda Gobler, president of the Michigan Grocers Association.

Quote: ... Gelcaps and liquid forms of the same medicines would be exempt because only the tablet form of the drugs can be converted to meth.

gekko,Apr 15 2005, 02:36 PM Wrote:The problem with only enforcing behavior after the fact is that it fails to prevent problems in the first place.

Quote: My argument is that there ARE drugs (whether we can agree on exactly which ones or not) that are inherently too dangerous; it is not possible to use them responsibly.  Therefore, it IS society's responsibility to ban those drugs, to the benefit of all.

Quote:My point was simply that there are many times, in law and in common sense, where it's impossible to accurately make a specific distinction between safe and harmful; between good and bad.

whyBish,Apr 15 2005, 03:39 AM Wrote:Having your kids hassled by pushers outside schools would also be an added bonus /shrug

Having some intruder high on P come in and carve up your family with a Samurai sword* would be even better /shrug

*based on recent event.
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Occhidiangela,Apr 15 2005, 03:32 PM Wrote:If a dude shows up on my doorstep with a Samurai sword, uninvited, Ruger and I know how to deal with him.  If he is hopped up, it will take all 6 rounds to drop him.  So be it.  A different issue at the mall, though, since I am not yet licensed to carry in public.

Occhi
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SetBuilder,Apr 15 2005, 12:45 PM Wrote:According to statisctics, the highest percentage of drug related deaths comes straight from alcohol. The highest percentage of drug related crime comes straight from alcohol. What's more, the highest amount of drug related medical issues comes from alcohol (followed closely by tobacco).

I'd say alcohol is the worst there is, apparently. Forget the other crap.
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ShadowHM,Apr 15 2005, 03:16 PM Wrote:Kind of like the drug laws?  ;)
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Occhidiangela,Apr 15 2005, 12:47 PM Wrote:Until you present your alleged statistics in light of user populations, all I can say to your post is "what a load of bollocks."

Occhi
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Quote:I shouldn't, no. But neither should it always be left up to the individual. People are stupid. Not all people; but a lot. We shouldn't have to make laws prohibiting sex with minors, but we do. We shouldn't have to make laws against racism, but we do. We shouldn't have to tell people that some substance is too dangerous, too addictive for them to use it responsibly, but we do.

SetBuilder,Apr 15 2005, 06:03 PM Wrote:Typical. 'Tis ok though, someone else went to the effort. In this case, I'd say find the facts for yourself, as I've found that even if the website I pull the info from is a .gov website, the information is nearly always accused of being false, so for you to believe the information, you need to find it yourself.

Quote:Good grief! You cannot compare sex with minors to using a drug. A smart person doesn't use meth and then go hang out with a bunch of strangers. They usually keep themselves in a locked house, either with people they know or alone, and as long as left alone, they leave everyone else alone. Furthermore, were you to legalize it, so so many people aren't getting ripped off, so that it's not so dangerous to produce (do to lack of proper equipment),  so that it doesn't require every penny a person has to afford even a small quantity of it, much of the property theft and violence revolving around aquiring it would more than likely vanish.

Quote:What's more, racism is not illegal. Racism defined is simply hating another person because of their race. It is racist acts that are illegal, and again, racist acts usually involve violence or property damage or theft, etc. None of which is involved in drug use. If I were to go use any given drug, all I'm doing is harming my own body. Which is my choice. You don't know me, and if you did, just like everyone else you'd think I was an asshole. Why should you care if I harm myself? Hell, I already smoke tobacco, why not add to the pot? (tobacco is all though)

Quote:Second, if you were to come into my home and tell me what to do, and that I can not do things, you'd find yourself at the bottom of a flight of stairs, quite possibly in very, very bad shape, wondering how you got there.
Bottom line is, they can require me to show ID for whatever they want. I don't care. I will register absolutely nothing at a grocery store. They will not log my purchases. There's something called right to privacy. Mine will not be violated in that manner.
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Quote:Drug abusers hurt many people, not only themselves. Because people are not responsible when they use these substances. Because they can't control themselves while high, or even while between highs.

Quote:You keep referring to "people".

Come hang out with me for a few hours. I'll talk #$%& to you for the entire time, insult you, and pretty much egg you on. By the end of that time, there's a good chance that even if you are the most passive person in the world (which I actually am, except verbally), that you're probably going to swing at me. Assualt 4 (in oregon). You're now a criminal. Good job! You must not be a smart person then, right?

gekko,Apr 15 2005, 06:16 PM Wrote:Drug abusers hurt many people, not only themselves.  Because people are not responsible when they use these substances.  Because they can't control themselves while high, or even while between highs. 

gekko
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ShadowHM,Apr 15 2005, 08:59 PM Wrote:Did you really mean that?

You just equated drug use with drug abuse.  Or is any use of recreational drugs abuse in your book?

Some people are undoubtedly irresponsible, whether they are using drugs or not.  But it is a big leap to suggest that all drug users are irresponsible 'out-of-control' people.

And, do let us keep children out of the discussion?  The 'age of adulthood' has many ways to be defined, but protection of children is an issue that we can, I think, achieve agreement in principle, even if we might disagree on specifics.
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