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+--- Thread: New Hunter talent trees (/thread-5953.html)
New Hunter talent trees - Artega - 07-30-2005
Skandranon,Jul 30 2005, 03:01 PM Wrote:Yeah, but this is fifteen percent. Hunters only don't get 1% crit if they have <300 agility. By endgame most hunters are running around with 400 and even 500 agility. Not to mention the enormous bonus to ranged attack power that this much agility will give.
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Plus the Dodge bonuses.
And I'm even more concerned about the HP talent. +10% to BASE HP would be pretty nice. +10% to TOTAL HP is ludicrous. Hunters with this talent will be able to get very close to Warrior and Warlock-level HP. I greatly dislike the idea of that.
New Hunter talent trees - Lissa - 07-31-2005
Artega,Jul 30 2005, 04:20 PM Wrote:Plus the Dodge bonuses.
And I'm even more concerned about the HP talent. +10% to BASE HP would be pretty nice. +10% to TOTAL HP is ludicrous. Hunters with this talent will be able to get very close to Warrior and Warlock-level HP. I greatly dislike the idea of that.
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Even with +10%, a Hunter won't get more than 4.5k health which I've seen plenty of Mages pull off. Hunters have already low hit points, the +10% total will make them maybe get just above 4.5k with buffs.
New Hunter talent trees - Pantalaimon - 07-31-2005
Lissa,Jul 30 2005, 11:46 PM Wrote:Even with +10%, a Hunter won't get more than 4.5k health which I've seen plenty of Mages pull off.[right][snapback]84689[/snapback][/right]
... but the hunters won't have to give up the stats, +crit or +damage which the mages at 4.5k hp did. They can pour it into +agi, which, thanks to another talent, will give them significant boosts.
Mages also can't parry or wear mail.
New Hunter talent trees - Lissa - 07-31-2005
Pantalaimon,Jul 30 2005, 10:51 PM Wrote:... but the hunters won't have to give up the stats, +crit or +damage which the mages at 4.5k hp did. They can pour it into +agi, which, thanks to another talent, will give them significant boosts.
Mages also can't parry or wear mail.
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Dunno what mages you're been looking at, but I've seen several that have been able to pull off 4.5k health and 7k+ mana and not detriment themselves. If you're willing to hunt for blues and get the enchants, you can easily do what I'm talking about.
New Hunter talent trees - Brista - 07-31-2005
Besides, all this talk of doom and quitting seems just so ridiculous
I can understand posting in this manner on the official boards where the Blizzard staff read it and collate it and pass on the feedback to designers. Dramatic threats to quit (and thereby impact the company's bottom line) are par for the course.
But does anyone really think that making one of the game's notably weaker classes 10% better will ruin their enjoyment? Here where no designer is likely to look
Mage v hunter is still an easy win for the Mage. The only hunters who have significantly increased chance against mages are possibly the ones with the top beast talent. Certainly not 10% extra life.
Warrior v hunter is the same battle it's always been - can you catch us? It's one of the better player match ups because it's so much about player skill.
Shaman v hunter should be a walk-over for the shaman. It's the kiting class against the class best designed to foil kiting (frost shock, earthbind, ghost wolf).
New Hunter talent trees - Shriek - 07-31-2005
I say, "Bravo". They fixed what I felt was wrong with the class--there weren't any really hard choices in the talent builds. Now there are higher-tier talents in each tree that I want, and I may actually consider respeccing from time to time--which I've never once felt the urge to do.
As to balance, I don't think these changes are over-doing it, but if something is severely out-of-whack, Blizzard will surely pull out the nerf-stick about three weeks after they push it to live, anyway. There will be so many cries of indignation from the test realm that they will surely be ignored.
New Hunter talent trees - lemekim - 07-31-2005
I just want to say, why couldn't warrior protection tree (and in part fury tree) get some changes like this. 10% increased health in protection tree alone would go much farther towards making it more desirable then the "Shield Slam" talent. =P
New Hunter talent trees - Artega - 08-01-2005
lemekim,Jul 31 2005, 02:09 PM Wrote:I just want to say, why couldn't warrior protection tree (and in part fury tree) get some changes like this. 10% increased health in protection tree alone would go much farther towards making it more desirable then the "Shield Slam" talent. =P
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Disagree.
Shield Slam gave Protection exactly what it needed: an effective way to deal damage.
Previously, going deeper than 15 into Protection meant you neutered your damage output, hence the incredible popularity of 31/5/15.
With Shield Slam, there is now reason to go full Protection, and you no longer utterly gimp your damage output by doing so.
As for giving Warriors a talent like the proposed Hunter HP talent: we don't need it. Hunters don't need it, and neither do we.
New Hunter talent trees - Warlock - 08-01-2005
3% to a stat per talent point doesn't sound excessive to me. The Druid +Str equivalent is a woeful talent, for instance. It's better for Hunters since they have a stronger focus on one stat than Druids do, but it doesn't sound overpowering to me.
1% more crit to every attack made also seems merely equal to equivalents from other classes. If the bonus worked only on melee, the talent would be noticably worse for hunters than that of other classes because it would work on a far smaller proportion of Hunter attacks than Warrior/Rogue attacks.
New Hunter talent trees - Kevin - 08-01-2005
Artega,Jul 31 2005, 10:28 PM Wrote:Disagree.
Shield Slam gave Protection exactly what it needed: an effective way to deal damage.
Previously, going deeper than 15 into Protection meant you neutered your damage output, hence the incredible popularity of 31/5/15.
With Shield Slam, there is now reason to go full Protection, and you no longer utterly gimp your damage output by doing so.
As for giving Warriors a talent like the proposed Hunter HP talent: we don't need it. Hunters don't need it, and neither do we.
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Shield Slam is still only mediocre for damage. It is rare to see more than about 300 a hit for it. I need to test on more mobs of course for hard data, but a 10 damage/rage +/- 1-2 damage looks to be about what you get with slam. You still give up much of the extra damage for regular attacks that an arms or fury could do (though in tank gear things like enrage are going to be pointless since you won't get critted). The extra damag of flurry may not make up for it but bloodthirst + flurries that you get really should. I think MS, even with a one hander (and even when tanking not a lot of reason to not swap to the two hander for it) is generally going to do close to that kind of damage. Plus I won't have impale or sweeping strikes, or an individual weapon spec. I still think the 31/5/15 is a better tank build for 90-95% of the encounters. The gap has been closed a fair bit for sure but I still don't think the rest of the protection talents give that much of an advantage to tanking, while the arms & fury talents do still give a big advantage to soloing or offtanking or any other role a warrior may have to fill.
New Hunter talent trees - lemekim - 08-01-2005
Gnollguy,Aug 1 2005, 01:37 PM Wrote:Shield Slam is still only mediocre for damage. It is rare to see more than about 300 a hit for it. I need to test on more mobs of course for hard data, but a 10 damage/rage +/- 1-2 damage looks to be about what you get with slam. You still give up much of the extra damage for regular attacks that an arms or fury could do (though in tank gear things like enrage are going to be pointless since you won't get critted). The extra damag of flurry may not make up for it but bloodthirst + flurries that you get really should. I think MS, even with a one hander (and even when tanking not a lot of reason to not swap to the two hander for it) is generally going to do close to that kind of damage. Plus I won't have impale or sweeping strikes, or an individual weapon spec. I still think the 31/5/15 is a better tank build for 90-95% of the encounters. The gap has been closed a fair bit for sure but I still don't think the rest of the protection talents give that much of an advantage to tanking, while the arms & fury talents do still give a big advantage to soloing or offtanking or any other role a warrior may have to fill.
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Agree completely. Especially considering the fact that in the situations where you actually might want Protection (Read - MC, Onyxia, BWL), most of the time talents after the first 15 are useless anyway.
Although I do have to agree with the fact that both 10% increased life is too much for both hunters and warriors. A 5% increased life talent would be fair I think, and would still make protection tree more desirable.
Of course, Blizzard already said that they do not want to make Protection tree to be significantly better at tanking then any other tree, but how do you make it so by putting points into protection tree you don't actually get better at protecting? A conundrum in itself, it can only be resolved by giving the skills in the tree a different direction from protection. Shield Slam added DPS, and I think Blizzard's logic is to add more DPS-increasing talents in the tree to make it more attractive to other warriors. I feel it would be better instead if they made it more of a group/utility tree, it would gain some different purpose and be more tempting if the warrior could add some utility at the cost of DPS. After all, if you really wanted DPS, you would spec Arms of Fury anyway... But that's probably just me.
New Hunter talent trees - MongoJerry - 08-01-2005
lemekim,Aug 1 2005, 11:15 AM Wrote:I feel it would be better instead if they made it more of a group/utility tree, it would gain some different purpose and be more tempting if the warrior could add some utility at the cost of DPS. After all, if you really wanted DPS, you would spec Arms of Fury anyway... But that's probably just me.
Perhaps more skills that allow warriors to build up aggro on multiple targets?
New Hunter talent trees - Kevin - 08-01-2005
lemekim,Aug 1 2005, 01:15 PM Wrote:Of course, Blizzard already said that they do not want to make Protection tree to be significantly better at tanking then any other tree, but how do you make it so by putting points into protection tree you don't actually get better at protecting? A conundrum in itself, it can only be resolved by giving the skills in the tree a different direction from protection. Shield Slam added DPS, and I think Blizzard's logic is to add more DPS-increasing talents in the tree to make it more attractive to other warriors. I feel it would be better instead if they made it more of a group/utility tree, it would gain some different purpose and be more tempting if the warrior could add some utility at the cost of DPS. After all, if you really wanted DPS, you would spec Arms of Fury anyway... But that's probably just me.
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See to me that would be like Blizzard saying we don't want druids who put points in the restoration tree to be significantly better healers than druids who don't. Or we don't want rogues who put points in the assassination to be significantly better at stealth.
Of course what I think they mean is that we don't arms/fury warriors to not be able to tank. They said that about paladins too though. We don't want groups with a paladin tank to feel signifanctly weaker than groups with a warrior tank. They failed there as well.
I also agree that if you want DPS you go arms or furry. Blizzard needs to do something with this tree. Arms and Fury seem to balance against each other pretty well right now. Protection is still borked.
New Hunter talent trees - MongoJerry - 08-01-2005
When I first heard about Wyvern Sting from guild chat, my first thought was, "Don't hunters already have scatter shot?" I'm glad they made it so that hunters had to choose one or the other, because having both would be overpowering in PvP. Now, hunters actually have an interesting choice. Do they want to have Scatter Shot to use in close quarters, especially to use defensively against rogues and warriors? Or do they want to have Wyvern Sting to mess up parties at a distance? Keep in mind, too, that Scatter Shot can't be dispelled while (I assume) Wyvern Sting can be cured with a poison purge.
New Hunter talent trees - MongoJerry - 08-01-2005
Caydiem has posted that the highest rank of Trueshot Aura gives +100 attack power and the highest rank of Wyvern Sting does 600 nature damage over 12 seconds.
New Hunter talent trees - Mirajj - 08-01-2005
MongoJerry,Aug 1 2005, 01:40 PM Wrote:When I first heard about Wyvern Sting from guild chat, my first thought was, "Don't hunters already have scatter shot?" I'm glad they made it so that hunters had to choose one or the other, because having both would be overpowering in PvP. Now, hunters actually have an interesting choice. Do they want to have Scatter Shot to use in close quarters, especially to use defensively against rogues and warriors? Or do they want to have Wyvern Sting to mess up parties at a distance? Keep in mind, too, that Scatter Shot can't be dispelled while (I assume) Wyvern Sting can be cured with a poison purge.
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My first look at Wyvern Sting and I was thinking that it was fairly useless, being only usable out of combat, and only lasting 12 seconds if nothing touches it. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile talent point investiture to me, yet everyone's drooling over it like it's a godsend? Can you explain this to me? What am I missing about WS that's so great?
New Hunter talent trees - lemekim - 08-01-2005
MongoJerry,Aug 1 2005, 06:29 PM Wrote:Perhaps more skills that allow warriors to build up aggro on multiple targets?
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Well one of the bigger complaints about protection tree is that it's pretty gimp in PvP. Whereas a healer specced to heal can do quite well in group pvp, prot. spec warrior has little to bring to the table (especially comparing to the alternative - mortal strike).
So while ability to hold better aggro on multiple targets might be nice - e.g. a 3 point talent to increase aggro from Demo Shout by 300%, and could give the protection tree an edge in tanking without making it necessary, it would not help in PvP.
Do you remember in Beta, paladins had ability to take 50% of all incoming damage to a target? Perhaps something in that direction, if it lastes like 20 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown, would be an interesting idea (although it might make it overpowered for certain end-game instances).
P.S. Not to make it look like hijacking a thread, I will add about new hunter talents and PvP:
I can imagine that hunters now will be able to do quite a bit of damage to the target without that target being able to do much about it. Between Wyvern Shot, Aim shots and Freeze trap, I can easily see 2k damage done before the target can move. "Nerf Hunters" post incoming =)
New Hunter talent trees - Quark - 08-01-2005
Mirajj,Aug 1 2005, 03:25 PM Wrote:My first look at Wyvern Sting and I was thinking that it was fairly useless, being only usable out of combat, and only lasting 12 seconds if nothing touches it. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile talent point investiture to me, yet everyone's drooling over it like it's a godsend? Can you explain this to me? What am I missing about WS that's so great?
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CC is the ultimate utility in this game. It will be more effective PvE, but then again so is Sap. The best example I can use is UBRS. With our low amount of druids, it's quite often that we end up in UBRS with no druids whatsoever. Sap is only Humanoids, Sheep only Humanoids and Beasts, and Shackle doesn't even apply to UBRS. So for the Dragonkin, that leaves Freezing Trap at 20 seconds - 26 seconds if you count 3 points into a talent nobody got. Given a perfect Feign Death/retrap, that's 40 to 52 seconds. Sap's 45 seconds, so that's about equivalent if you count the fact that Freezing Trap can be used on anything even though it's tougher to do right.
Now let's take the new talents. Only 2 talent points for a 26 second Freezing Trap, and Wyvern sting is now one of two CCs that does damage - the other being one limited to outside. Now a Hunter in UBRS can either control one Dragon for 64 seconds - even doing a small amount of damage to it - or can control 2 for 12 seconds then just one for 40 more seconds.
Sure, it's the toughest CC to use right in the game, but it's still the most versatile.
New Hunter talent trees - Mirajj - 08-01-2005
Quark,Aug 1 2005, 03:09 PM Wrote:CC is the ultimate utility in this game.
Sure, it's the toughest CC to use right in the game, but it's still the most versatile.
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I guess this is where I'm running into problems with it. 12 seconds in a UBRS fight is basically a null time. Next to nothing is going down that fast. And after that 12 seconds is up, the WS'ed creature now has a tiny DoT on it that prevents any other form of CC being reapplied to it. In addition to it being mad at the hunter, it gets a little damage.
I don't see it as being very useful at all. I guess I'll have to think more about it.
New Hunter talent trees - Skandranon - 08-01-2005
Mirajj,Aug 1 2005, 02:25 PM Wrote:My first look at Wyvern Sting and I was thinking that it was fairly useless, being only usable out of combat, and only lasting 12 seconds if nothing touches it. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile talent point investiture to me, yet everyone's drooling over it like it's a godsend? Can you explain this to me? What am I missing about WS that's so great?
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A ranged form of crowd control that works on anything? I think a lot of people would jump at it. Keep in mind that as a Hunter, you can get out of combat at any time using Feign Death, so the out of combat restriction is not particularly meaningful.
Especially in Molten Core, where things charge in gigantic packs, being able to split them up is critical. Previously, this was accomplished by way of distracting shots and timed charge-taunts from the tanks; wyvern sting now makes it trivial. A few wyvern stings and a large pack becomes a neat line of sleeping mobs. Blackwing Lair also has a number of pulls where wyvern sting becomes a tremendous asset.