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Kid in the candy store - LochnarITB - 08-13-2005
Drasca,Aug 13 2005, 06:39 AM Wrote:You certainly use mana citrines, don't you?Actually, no I don't. I use a mana ruby. :P Really though, I rarely use them. If I do, it means I've gone into Things Go Wrong⢠territory.
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Kid in the candy store - Drasca - 08-15-2005
LochnarITB,Aug 13 2005, 04:44 PM Wrote:Actually, no I don't. I use a mana ruby. :P Really though, I rarely use them. If I do, it means I've gone into Things Go Wrong⢠territory.
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Har har har. To me, that just means 'its a long battle' territory. Get used to 5 minute battles against +3 elites. That means either up to +3 enemies, sequential or simultaneous, your pick, or one elite mob up to +3 levels on you.
I had quite a blast taking down a badlands 43e dragon when I was 41. Started elite dragonkin slaying in Dustwallow marsh at 37 :)
Revel in the power of fear, fear kiting, and its delicate aggro / range balance. Also, learn first aid, develop it immediately. You're 2x-4x more effective with use of bandages (as you're one of the few classes that can self-bandage mid battle while keeping aggro).
Fear, bandage, life drain, and you're suddenly back to fighting form. Life tap if you need mana.
Gee, I only wish I was around to witness your lock growing up.
Kid in the candy store - Zippyy - 08-15-2005
LochnarITB,Aug 13 2005, 05:35 PM Wrote:Thanks for such an extensive post and thanks to all the other replies as well. Like I said, this is probably the only character I will end up respeccing. For now, I am having a blast with him. I've solo killed level+1 gold dragon elites and level+2 silver. If I get runners, the usual thought is, "Good, grab another for me so I don't have to go find it myself." :D I really don't see why more people don't harness the power of the warlock. Come to the dark side! :ph34r:You are becoming. :shuriken:
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Kid in the candy store - Kevin - 08-15-2005
LochnarITB,Aug 13 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote:Thanks for such an extensive post and thanks to all the other replies as well. Like I said, this is probably the only character I will end up respeccing. For now, I am having a blast with him. I've solo killed level+1 gold dragon elites and level+2 silver. If I get runners, the usual thought is, "Good, grab another for me so I don't have to go find it myself." :D I really don't see why more people don't harness the power of the warlock. Come to the dark side! :ph34r:
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I've wondered that for awhile myself. I still haven't seen any argument that has convinced me that even with the bugs that the warlock isn't the most powerful PvE class in the game.
It is the only class that can tank (yes a voidwalker can tank), self heal, has very high (though streaky) single target DPS, has a very powerful AoE, can CC pretty much anything in the game, provide wipe recovery, provide some wipe prevent (health stones), and stop runners. No other class can do that much and the warlock not only can do all that it can be the best at some of those abilities as well. And in PvE you generally do have the prep time to be able to bring whatever aspect you need to the front.
It's an insanely powerful solo and group class.
Warlocks are the most uber class in PvE and they are not highly equipment dependent either for most of the game.
Kid in the candy store - nobbie - 08-15-2005
Gnollguy,Aug 15 2005, 04:17 PM Wrote:Warlocks are the most uber class in PvE and they are not highly equipment dependent either for most of the game.Definitely not :) Druids and Shamans beat the heck out of Warlocks in (solo) PvE when it comes to fighting Elite monsters. Also, Warlocks are as gear dependent as any caster class if they want to be powerful.
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Kid in the candy store - Quark - 08-15-2005
nobbie,Aug 15 2005, 01:00 PM Wrote:Definitely not :) Druids and Shamans beat the heck out of Warlocks in (solo) PvE when it comes to fighting Elite monsters. Also, Warlocks are as gear dependent as any caster class if they want to be powerful.
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Druids lose a lot in group PvE, Warlocks don't lose nearly as much. For solo, Warlocks also have ways to heal themselves, even including Fear+Bandage. As a Rogue, where my only in-combat heal options are pots and bandages, I know how strong delaying the enemy even for just 2/3rds of a bandage can be. I don't think you give Warlocks enough credit.
I can't comment on Shamans.
Kid in the candy store - nobbie - 08-15-2005
Quark,Aug 15 2005, 05:07 PM Wrote:Druids lose a lot in group PvE, Warlocks don't lose nearly as much. For solo, Warlocks also have ways to heal themselves, even including Fear+Bandage.Why do Druids lose a lot in group PvE? Examples? And, Druids are the best (self-)healers after the Priest class and can basically fight forever with alternating Bear/Caster form.
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Kid in the candy store - Quark - 08-15-2005
nobbie,Aug 15 2005, 01:43 PM Wrote:Why do Druids lose a lot in group PvE? Examples? And, Druids are the best (self-)healers after the Priest class and can basically fight forever with alternating Bear/Caster form.
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Fighting forever != strength, just ask Paladins. If you can beat a +3 elite mob, would you rather do it in 2 minutes taking some damage, or 5 minutes taking no (net) damage? Yes, my numbers are off, but survivability and DPS are what make solo PvE classes, not just healing. Druids sacrifice DPS for more survivability.
What they lose in Group PvE is due to their hybrid nature. Got healing solo? Great. Groups want healing and rez capability. Got entangling roots? Not many instances where that actually works. Like using Hibernate? Hope you like UBRS. Wanna be DPS? You're good enough for solo, but you fall behind Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters, Mages, and non-tank Warriors in groups. Want to utilize your tank form? I'd like a Druid to do that too, but I never see it.
What do Warlocks lose when they go into groups/instances?
Kid in the candy store - Tuftears - 08-15-2005
Quark,Aug 15 2005, 10:52 AM Wrote:Want to utilize your tank form? I'd like a Druid to do that too, but I never see it.
Rawr!
I do it a fair amount of the time, when a warrior isn't handy. I've tanked LBRS to Wyrmthalak, Scarlet-side Stratholme, Scholomance, and BRD to Emperor Thaurissan. It's all about the gear, and with a recently acquired Unyielding Maul, I've gotten to 8.2k armor and 5.5k health.
In cat-gear, I recently placed #2 in a 5-man Baron-side Strat run, at 21.9% of the damage done, behind the mage at 29% and ahead of the warrior and paladin and priest - and that was with going healer for the Baron fight itself.
31 restoration/20 feral, before you ask if I'm a feral-spec druid. :whistling:
That said, warlocks are darn handy to have around, lots of utility!
Kid in the candy store - Lissa - 08-15-2005
nobbie,Aug 15 2005, 10:00 AM Wrote:Definitely not :) Druids and Shamans beat the heck out of Warlocks in (solo) PvE when it comes to fighting Elite monsters.
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This I highly doubt. Can a Druid or Shaman solo Borelgore reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Volchan reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take the named Drake in Burning Steppes reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Devilsaurs and/or King Mosh reliably? I've soloed all those with my Warlock and was never in trouble.
During beta I thought the Shadowpriest was the ultimate in soloing after soloing such mobs as King Mukla and Giants in Azshara at lv 60, then I got Tahapenes to Azshara in the low 50s and was soloing giants a couple levels above me.
When it comes to PvE, the Warlock is peerless when it comes to soloing elites. While the Warlock may be slow in killing the mob, they will kill it and walk away. The only Elites a Warlock ever has any trouble with is those that are immune to fear, and that is very few and far between.
Kid in the candy store - nobbie - 08-15-2005
Lissa,Aug 15 2005, 06:27 PM Wrote:This I highly doubt. Can a Druid or Shaman solo Borelgore reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Volchan reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take the named Drake in Burning Steppes reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Devilsaurs and/or King Mosh reliably? I've soloed all those with my Warlock and was never in trouble.So, how do you fight all those Elite monsters/bosses solo with a Warlock? I'm asking because my Warlock has always bitten the dust when fighting Elites.
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Kid in the candy store - Tuftears - 08-15-2005
Fear-kiting and DoT cursing 4tw.
For druids, we can solo anything outdoors that can be rooted and/or hibernated reliably - it's boring, but it's doable.
Kid in the candy store - nobbie - 08-15-2005
Tuftears,Aug 15 2005, 08:39 PM Wrote:Fear-kiting and DoT cursing 4tw.Well, I don't consider "Fear-kiting/DOT cursing" a valid method to fight an (elite) monster because in practice, you have more mobs around your target. "Fear-kiting/DOT cursing" is only usable in the ideal, rare case where your Warlock and the (elite) monster are alone within a wide radius, and to say that Warlocks are peerless when it comes to soloing elites, or even peerless in PvE in general, is therefore true only for that particular 1 vs. 1 situation. I stand by my opinion that Shamans and Druids are the best solo classes, incl. the fight against elite monsters. The Druid is a tad slower than the Shaman here, but the Shaman with his "burst damage" capability must drink a lot more Mana pots between fights ;)
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Kid in the candy store - Warlock - 08-15-2005
Lissa,Aug 16 2005, 05:27 AM Wrote:This I highly doubt. Can a Druid or Shaman solo Borelgore reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Volchan reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take the named Drake in Burning Steppes reliably? Can a Druid or Shaman take Devilsaurs and/or King Mosh reliably? I've soloed all those with my Warlock and was never in trouble.
During beta I thought the Shadowpriest was the ultimate in soloing after soloing such mobs as King Mukla and Giants in Azshara at lv 60, then I got Tahapenes to Azshara in the low 50s and was soloing giants a couple levels above me.
When it comes to PvE, the Warlock is peerless when it comes to soloing elites. While the Warlock may be slow in killing the mob, they will kill it and walk away. The only Elites a Warlock ever has any trouble with is those that are immune to fear, and that is very few and far between.
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Borelgore and Volchan are easy if long fights using a Druid (root & nuke). A Stone Guardian with a Devilsaur add isn't hard (Hibernate the DS, root & nuke the Guardian). Not sure about the Burning Steppes drake or King Mosh (I suspect these are immune to both Hiberbate and Entangling Roots but haven't tried them).
Kid in the candy store - Icebird - 08-15-2005
Getting back to the talent discussion after the diversion into "Are warlocks the greatest or not?"...
I think my warlock's respec costs are up to about 20 gold now (including the free respec in the last patch). I agree with all the posters that recommend Affliction as the way to go while levelling.
End-game there are different options: Dark Pact builds, Soul Link builds, SM / Ruin, MD / Ruin. Instant Conflagarate will probably lead to more destruction 'locks out there.
I'm currently specced to Master Demonologist / Ruin, and I'm pretty happy with it. You get the nice burst damage from crits, with a fair amount of flexibility via your pets. The talent I'm really missing is Suppresion - since Curse of Shadows seems to get resisted often or wiped off the debuff list rapidly in MC.
I've also found Destructive Reach useful in MC, since there are numerous bosses you want to ping Shadowbolts at from as far away as possible.
Chris
Kid in the candy store - Drasca - 08-15-2005
nobbie,Aug 15 2005, 04:54 PM Wrote:ideal, rare case
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Hunt. Stalk. Pull. Don't ever shoot yourself in the leg.
Facing world enemies, you either clear or find ways to trap enemies to open areas for fear kiting. If you're facing multiple enemies, strike them all with dots, pets and AoE fear. Heck, with the right talents, you can simply AoE Kite them.
Quark & Lissa was mentioning Elite Bosses. Area bosses, not just regular elites. Those can be pet-tanked, or simply annihilated with firepower and sparse fear-bandages.
In PvE instances where instances are linear, fearable enemies are numerous and dangerous, you pull backwards. Showed off fearing in sunken temple in my 50's.
Pre-60 equipment, lock dps is fairly balanced. It isn't mind numbingly slow, nor falls behind too far from gear dependency, but its not blazing fast and pre-buffed damage either.
All things locks can do require a lot of micromanagement multitasking. CoR? Uhh.. Didn't I have a different curse on him. Oh curse gone, swallowed by time limit or other debuffs. Darn. CC? Nothing that's can be pre-buffed, more attention required by me. Gotta watch invisible timers. Doom? More timers. Oh boy, where'd that CC target go? Come here Warp bug!
Half the things locks can do strongly require talent specialization and attention to use. AoE? When we're hit, we're interrupted. Its still comparatively strong aoe, but requires either 17 pts into destruction for uninteruptability, partying with a paladin (not possible for horde), or spending 31 points for soul link and negating a chance to get "Ruin" to absorb damage done to self at a slower rate--or more importantly damage done from grabbing all that aggro.
So. . . Warlocks get pimped from equipment pretty darn well at endgame.
Quote:What do Warlocks lose when they go into groups/instances?
Dots, Fear, Limitations on pets (sometimes), invalidated talents.... who am I kidding? I love instances--even though I lose half my utility spells, and the other half are useless most of the time, there's always at least one utility spell used when needed.
Most of the time though, its just shadowbolt spam.
Kid in the candy store - Lissa - 08-15-2005
nobbie,Aug 15 2005, 12:48 PM Wrote:So, how do you fight all those Elite monsters/bosses solo with a Warlock? I'm asking because my Warlock has always bitten the dust when fighting Elites.
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Fear and DoTs. Against mobs, Fear does not break as often due to damage ticks. This means that you can easily take out a number of mobs and if you're 60, Curse of Doom is a big hit after 60 seconds. Pretty simple method.
Kid in the candy store - Bob the Beholder - 08-23-2005
Topic ressurection, ahoy!
I have forsaken my horde roots and I, at the urgings of the gibbering demons that I call my friends, have joined the dark side. A human warlock is me. (Guuuhh... the human male /laugh. It's like the soundtrack of a ganking. I've managed to build up a tolerance, however.)
Warlocks... just make me... soo... indecisive. They just have so many good talents! As of right now--at level 25--I am devoted entirely to the destruction tree. 'Cause, you know, making enemies die real fast is fun.
My original plan was to go for the recent cookie cutter warlock in the Master Demonologist/Ruin build! It has lots of good stuff--nutso crits, damage reduction, damage increase, threat reduction, the ability to crap out a new pet in .5 seconds, etc..
But, upon my discovery of a group of enemies who are highly shadow resistant, I ventured onto the temporary path of Searing Pain spamming. Coupled with my succubus, Syona, tearing up whatever target happens to be in my sights and my trusty immolate, it was very effective. Stuff died fast. Fast enough that I really didn't take all that much damage. And it felt goood. It felt right.
But I've levelled a fire mage to 60. Spamming the Scorch look-alike better damn well feel right!
Right there on the spot I considered a full on destruction build, Drake Dog style. With the rather immense crit chance for Searing Pain, coupled with the (soon to be) instant front load of Conflagrate, it could be quite powerful, and leave me with plenty of room for the early talents in the other trees I'd been trying to scrounge points to afford.
But do I really have what it takes to walk down the path of flames for yet another 60 levels? I'm not sure.
That and the .5 second pet summon is just not something to just shrug off on a whim. As well, the annoying state of fire resistance in many end-game instances makes me reluctant to put myself in that situation once again.
I am not entirely sure what I'm going to do with this character, but I haven't gone on any re-speccing sprees, so it's still easy to switch around. (Can't say it'll stay that way--my mage's re-specs have reached 50g. I tend to switch around a bit.)
As of now, I guess I'll just go about my levelling.
Kid in the candy store - Drasca - 08-23-2005
Bob the Beholder,Aug 23 2005, 08:22 AM Wrote:'Cause, you know, making enemies die real fast is fun.[right][snapback]86993[/snapback][/right]
Silly Fire mage.
Quote:recent cookie cutter warlock in the Master Demonologist/Ruin build!
I repeat, cookie cutter for the loss.
Quote:But I've levelled a fire mage to 60. Spamming the Scorch look-alike better damn well feel right!
Stick to your mage.
Quote:... style
He's a PvP build. Are you on a PvP server at all?
Quote:But do I really have what it takes to walk down the path of flames for yet another 60 levels? I'm not sure.
Again, go back to your mage if you want fire. Destruction build isn't worth it until at minimum of level 40, and then you'll just be playing mage without defensive or runaway aoe spells. Look to the leveling build I suggested.
Quote:That and the .5 second pet summon is just not something to just shrug off on a whim.
I was raised on affliction/demonology. It was fun. Less damage, but not that much less PvE/Soloing, as shadowburn is fairly unused PvE. Affliction is fear/drain/dot specialists PvE anyways. IsB/Bane only really comes in handy for End game 60+ where its all shadowbolt spam.
If you get to 40 and max out the affliction pts I suggested and want to try demonology to master summoning for leveling purposes... go with:
5 DE
3 iVW
2 iHS
1 FD
3 iSuc
1 iImp
2 MS
i f you want destruction secondary: iSB-->Bane-->Shadowburn before . One point in imp Firebolt, then 3 in improved Imp and 5 in Demonic embrace would round out your character for leveling purposes.
Kid in the candy store - Bob the Beholder - 08-24-2005
I have pondered on this, and have taken some of The Drasca's advice in this (Why the The? It's 7:30 AM. Leave me alone.) and have, at least temporarily, switched from destruction to affliction. Spent a good bit of the day playing around with it. There I go racking up the re-spec costs. I hope to keep it under 40g, at least before I hit 60. (Would be better than I did with the mage. ><)
Anyway. The instant corruption--I like. The improved Life Tap--I like. The Fel Concentration--I like. The rest (that I, at this point, have access to) I could do with or without. Night Fall is nice. Was lots of fun for maybe the first hour. But it just doesn't proc often enough to be reliable. It's never around when I need it.
I plan to stick it out for a while, though, at least until I hit the level for Siphon Life and Curse of Exhaustion.
With Siphon Life, one of my good friends, who has played a warlock since back when I annoyed him into buying the game a few months ago, said he tried it out and wasn't too impressed. This was a while back--maybe it's different now, I dunno. But he said it costed a lot of mana, and just didn't drain enough life to make all that much of a difference, unless you're slapping it on several targets.
Curse of Exhaustion, though. This is a big thing. I can imagine just how useful an instant snare would be, in a good many situations. Useful as it is, though, it's pretty deep into a tree in which I am only really wanting the early talents. Only time will tell as to just how much I deem it to be necessary.
As it is now, it's a bit too much of a waiting game, in my opinion. Most solo activity is just waiting for the dots to kill the enemy, or waiting for a night fall proc, etc.. It works, but I'm not really getting into it.
But, again, I've still got plenty of time to play around with all this stuff. Still having lots of fun with the warlock, and I don't exactly plan on giving up on it soon. Undoubtedly I will return here to ramble once I have done more testing.