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They are looking at the Shaman now - Printable Version

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They are looking at the Shaman now - Mavfin - 02-26-2006

Dozer,Feb 26 2006, 12:50 PM Wrote:I don't know what kind of raid guild you are in, but Shamans are there to HEAL, not take unnecessary damage by being in melee range or wasting mana throwing shocks around. If the raid has too many healers, you bring less healers and more DPS; you don't add gimp DPS by having healing classes start whacking things.
I chuckled at that. Are you joking or trying to make a point about morale? Either way, I'm not talking about if people are having fun at what they are doing, I'm talking about raid effectiveness.  My guild doesn't force specs - but feral druids and shadow priests sure aren't getting raid invites unless we're desparate(or doing MC). Every single shaman in our guild is at LEAST 32 in restoration (I'm currently 37, have been as high as 45). If someone wants to be a DPS class in a raid, what do they do? They roll a DPS class. The half-assed DPS fram a healing class in healing gear is detrimental to any raid (or the halfassed healing from a healing class that used all of their DKP on damage gear, for that matter.)


Like I said, if a druid or shaman gives up innervate or mana tide, that person probably gives up his spot in the raid. We raid to kill bosses, not to see all our healers run out of mana when Chromaggus is at 30%.
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Well, I don't know what kind of raid guild *you're* in, but it sounds like a nasty, grinding kind of raid guild where you either pigeonhole yourself or you're out, and fun is not allowed. I'll pass, thanks. There is more than one kind of raiding going on. You may get server firsts in your raid guild, I guess, but the price is not worth it. I raid to have fun playing my character the way I built her, as do the players I play with.

Doesn't mean you're wrong, doesn't mean I'm wrong. It means that we're not playing the game for the same reasons, and our guilds aren't either. We don't tell *anyone* what spec they have to be. We try to make best use of them the way they are. And we have fun with it. I'm sure your uber-min/maxed raid guild clears MC in 30 minutes, and kills Nef every week. So what. Not my game. We clear MC in 3 hours, and have gotten to Firemaw in BWL. And we have a ball with it.

The conclusion is that a lot of people play this game, and for a lot of different reasons. Try to remember that next time before disparaging other styles of play. See above. Did you really care for *my* description of your style? Probably not. It was there to make a point. Think about it.






They are looking at the Shaman now - Dozer - 02-26-2006

Zarathustra,Feb 26 2006, 01:52 PM Wrote:How's the inside of the box look, anyway?
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Purple.



And I was simply commenting on how We don't have a "Healing set" like Druids and Paladins do.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Dozer - 02-26-2006

Mavfin,Feb 26 2006, 02:07 PM Wrote:The conclusion is that a lot of people play this game, and for a lot of different reasons.  Try to remember that next time before disparaging other styles of play.  See above.  Did you really care for *my* description of your style?  Probably not.  It was there to make a point.  Think about it.
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Fair enough. Nothing to say to that.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Kevin - 02-26-2006

Dozer,Feb 26 2006, 12:50 PM Wrote:I don't know what kind of raid guild you are in, but Shamans are there to HEAL, not take unnecessary damage by being in melee range or wasting mana throwing shocks around. If the raid has too many healers, you bring less healers and more DPS; you don't add gimp DPS by having healing classes start whacking things.

Um you don't need nearly the healing on Trash mobs as you do on bosses. Not even close, not even if you are fighting several at once (we do triple firelord pulls at times to speed things up too, we also fight a two giants and a dog or two at the same time) So in my opinion a smart group would do well to bring shaman and paladins and druids that can heal on the bosses where you need more of the healing and do DPS on the trash or the weaker bosses to make things go faster. Of course as gearing gets better you need even less healing. But I love taking my druid to MC. She is cat form the on the trash sitting in front of all but the rogues the top geared DPS warriors, and some of the warlocks, but top 10 in damage is not hard on the way to Luci and Mags. But on Luci I change to caster to help remove curse and throw a few heals out. On Mags I put on my feral high mana set so I can pop into cat do some damage, pop out and heal the rogues or others who are the back and then do more damage. Sure you could replace me with a priest who will not need to heal and do much less DPS on the trash. Or you could replace me with a rogue and not have enough healing or decursing on Mags. But as a feral druid I get to give boosts to DPS and do pretty good DPS, and I can and do heal when we need the extra healing, that you dont' always need.

Unless you are changing teh group that is doing the trash and change the group that is doing each and every boss (and you'll waste time on the summoning), hybrid classes, playing as hybrids are fantastic because not every encounter takes as much healing. You need more healing on domo than you do on Gehennas. I've seen similar situations in ZG, AQ20 and BWL. Druids and paladins doind DPS in phase one to get rid of mages faster and then healing in phase two because even in that fight you need different amounts of healing.

Dozer Wrote:
Treesh Wrote:Any guild that wants to actually take down the bosses quickly and easily aren't going to force folks into one spec.
I chuckled at that. Are you joking or trying to make a point about morale? Either way, I'm not talking about if people are having fun at what they are doing, I'm talking about raid effectiveness. My guild doesn't force specs - but feral druids and shadow priests sure aren't getting raid invites unless we're desparate(or doing MC). Every single shaman in our guild is at LEAST 32 in restoration (I'm currently 37, have been as high as 45). If someone wants to be a DPS class in a raid, what do they do? They roll a DPS class. The half-assed DPS fram a healing class in healing gear is detrimental to any raid (or the halfassed healing from a healing class that used all of their DKP on damage gear, for that matter.)

As pointed out, you can be more effective with the hybrids if you use them. You can build gear sets that make you middle road on both or you can change gear. My warrior changes what gear he uses for firelords and what gear he uses for surgers and what gear he uses for Razorgore and what gear he uses for Vael. My druid changes gear out all the time in MC and well we are glad to have druids around with improved thorns because it makes aggro that much better for the tanks and does just that much more damage on the lead AoE mages (and the tanks, improved thorns can be 10% of the MT's damage, which means it's just that much faster that much more aggro and you should care about that if you want to be optimized like you are talking, you should want someone with that skill and a warrior with imp battle shout in with the rogues and even a leader of the pack in with a DPS group to make the DPS that much better I can mathcraft what 3% more crit for 3 rogues and a DPS warrior can mean and then if you give that DPS to the druid that is providing that aura you are probably doing more damage than having another hunter, or rogue or DPS warrior on the raid).

Dozer Wrote:Like I said, if a druid or shaman gives up innervate or mana tide, that person probably gives up his spot in the raid. We raid to kill bosses, not to see all our healers run out of mana when Chromaggus is at 30%.
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That is way too bad. If all your healers are running out of mana at that point then you need to fix your strat or bring more healers are make sure that your hybrids are doing the right job on that too. I'm not convinced that pigeonholing the hybrids makes you better. I'm not convinced it makes you worse either. Specs for most classes make them different enough that it's pretty safe to say there are 24 classes for each faction, not 8. Learn to use those classes best.

I'm not just talking about people having fun and morale either. I'm talking about the benefits each person and spec can provide. Sure it might still be that only one shaman is best and that shaman should be resto, but maybe that isn't the case. I'm just about positive that you do better with at least one moonkin and one leader of the pack and might do better without a single resto druid. We keep losing resto druids because innervate becomes less and less important and priests are better healers and paladins are damn good healers and feral or moonkin druids tend to bring more to the table (Keep in mind a feral druid has a 20% bigger mana pool than a resto druid).

And yes I agree that looking at the endgame shaman and paladins have less options as hybrids than druids. Paladins weren't really fixed on this issue with their revamp. I think shaman can be and I hope they are.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Rinnhart - 02-26-2006

Mavfin,Feb 26 2006, 08:16 AM Wrote:Agreed, Quark.  Stow your negativity somewhere, Rinnhart.  That's all I ever see from you.

:D Quark makes me look like rather optimistic.

Quote:<hijack>

I have a lot of fun raiding.&nbsp; But, I'm not in a 'raid guild' where I'm forced to raid X amount to stay in.&nbsp; I raid when I want, and skip a raid if I want.&nbsp; A lot of times people get tired of raiding because they're in one of the 'top raiding guilds' and they better be available to raid, or they're out.&nbsp; That's just another form of grind.&nbsp; Good for some, not for others.

I've been in guilds of all sizes in four different MMOs. Big ones, you've got the grind (though bigger guilds also clear faster and do more interesting encounters, so the grind really isn't that bad). Little ones, the lack of progression. Middle ones, you're a stepping stone. No one stays in little or medium guilds in which they don't enjoy the people. You stay in a guild because of the people. Thusly, you raid because of the people. Or, you may be one of the anti-social few who only hang around out of personal avarice (granted personal progression is inevitably a motivator for us all).


The elements that make the raid game fun: interesting encounters with nice loot done with decent people, do not have to be presented in so dull a way as a large raid encounter. Small group content, which is what Blizzard originally trumpeted as being their focus, has every advantage over raiding except for the overall replayability of the dungeon. How many hundreds of man hours go in to every piece of loot from MC or BWL? It's more cost effective to develope raid content, so that's what they're going to do, the actual "fun" factor of their game be damned.


Quote:I sign up to raid because I get to contribute.&nbsp; I got to MT Onyxia for the first time last night.&nbsp; *That* was fun!&nbsp; Doing warders or doing whelps is fun, too, but not the rush of cornering the beast herself.&nbsp;

</end hijack>
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New things are always fun.

MT is the best job on any raid.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Quark - 02-26-2006

Rinnhart,Feb 26 2006, 04:52 PM Wrote:No one stays in little or medium guilds in which they don't enjoy the people. You stay in a guild because of the people. Thusly, you raid because of the people.
False logic. I raid because I got bored of the rest of the game (no longer true, but it was at that point). I helped build the team we have from people I enjoyed the earlier aspects of the game with. If we hadn't gotten raiding down, I'd probably still be a <Lurker>, but I don't know if you'd ever see me playing the game.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Warlock - 02-26-2006

Some people raid and like it, some raid because there is nothing else worthwhile to do, some don't raid because they dislike it, some don't raid because they can't.

I'm glad there is raid content. I'm less glad that a game with ten times the subscribers as it's competition has a single dominant playstyle. If small group content had had the focus that raid content has had since release I'd probably be calling for more raid content as something different to do :)


They are looking at the Shaman now - Rinnhart - 02-27-2006

Quark,Feb 26 2006, 02:02 PM Wrote:False logic.&nbsp; I raid because I got bored of the rest of the game (no longer true, but it was at that point).&nbsp; I helped build the team we have from people I enjoyed the earlier aspects of the game with.&nbsp; If we hadn't gotten raiding down, I'd probably still be a <Lurker>, but I don't know if you'd ever see me playing the game.
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Oh, come on, Quark, you're disagreeing to disagree. I didn't state it the most eloquent way, but it's basic behavioral science. The rat doesn't push the button if the button doesn't do anything. Curiosity moves us at first but inevitably we're left with the stimulus of progression and social interaction as motivation for continued raiding, not the act itself.

I'm not saying raiding can't be fun, I'm saying that the repititiveness is overwhelming and completely unnecessary.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Quark - 02-27-2006

Rinnhart,Feb 27 2006, 03:13 AM Wrote:Curiosity moves us at first but inevitably we're left with the stimulus of progression and social interaction as motivation for continued raiding, not the act itself.[right][snapback]103049[/snapback][/right]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I raid for all those reasons, not just two of them. You are not me, so stop saying you're everyone.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Tal - 02-27-2006

Mavfin,Feb 26 2006, 01:07 PM Wrote:Well, I don't know what kind of raid guild *you're* in, but it sounds like a nasty, grinding kind of raid guild where you either pigeonhole yourself or you're out, and fun is not allowed.&nbsp; I'll pass, thanks.&nbsp; There is more than one kind of raiding going on.&nbsp; You may get server firsts in your raid guild, I guess, but the price is not worth it.&nbsp; I raid to have fun playing my character the way I built her, as do the players I play with.&nbsp;

Doesn't mean you're wrong, doesn't mean I'm wrong.&nbsp; It means that we're not playing the game for the same reasons, and our guilds aren't either.&nbsp; We don't tell *anyone* what spec they have to be.&nbsp; We try to make best use of them the way they are.&nbsp; And we have fun with it.&nbsp; I'm sure your uber-min/maxed raid guild clears MC in 30 minutes, and kills Nef every week.&nbsp; So what.&nbsp; Not my game.&nbsp; We clear MC in 3 hours, and have gotten to Firemaw in BWL.&nbsp; And we have a ball with it.&nbsp;

The conclusion is that a lot of people play this game, and for a lot of different reasons.&nbsp; Try to remember that next time before disparaging other styles of play.&nbsp; See above.&nbsp; Did you really care for *my* description of your style?&nbsp; Probably not.&nbsp; It was there to make a point.&nbsp; Think about it.
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What kind of raid guild am I in? The kind that lets me go full out dps in our raids while the REAL warriors do the tanking. ;D

They are looking at the Shaman now - Mavfin - 02-27-2006

Tal,Feb 27 2006, 08:26 AM Wrote:What kind of raid guild am I in? The kind that lets me go full out dps in our raids while the REAL warriors do the tanking. ;D
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Yeah, Tal's just a rogue-in-plate :P :blink:


They are looking at the Shaman now - Artega - 02-27-2006

Dozer,Feb 26 2006, 12:39 PM Wrote:Haha, that reminds me of a guild leader/MT on our server whose ego is bigger than can be put into words.

Anyway, my guild doesn't even [I]have a "main tank", per se; we rotate between 3-5 very well geared warriors. And now that I think about it none of them have any sort of ego. In fact, almost all of them are 30+ year olds with kids and jobs.&nbsp; :D
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That seems to be the way most good guilds do things, to prevent one Warrior from developing a god complex :)

They are looking at the Shaman now - Artega - 02-27-2006

Rinnhart,Feb 26 2006, 05:52 PM Wrote:MT is the best job on any raid.
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/signed

While I'm having tons of fun with my Shammy in PvP and the 5-man instances, I doubt he'll be as much fun as my (now retired) Warrior during raids.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Lissa - 02-27-2006

Dozer, if you are honestly being forced into a specific build by your guild for raiding, I'd say it was time to look at getting another guild. Being told how you must play your character in a raid does not lead to fun. In Avarice, we don't enforce builds and we see a lot of interesting builds and abilities. (Genkar is shadow speced and heals the melee DPS against Rag by VE and does so pretty effectively, we have several Druids that are specced for Feral and Moonkin, we have Warlocks that go against the grain on typical raid builds of SM(MD)/Ruin, and a variety of other things.) Avarice contains a lot of "variant scum". ;)

They are looking at the Shaman now - Rinnhart - 02-27-2006

Quark,Feb 27 2006, 04:28 AM Wrote:Stop putting words in my mouth.&nbsp; I raid for all those reasons, not just two of them.&nbsp; You are not me, so stop saying you're everyone.
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ACCEPT YOUR FATE- JOIN WITH THE OVERMIND. YOU HAVE BEEN ERRANT TOO LONG.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Lissa - 02-27-2006

Dozer,Feb 26 2006, 10:50 AM Wrote:I don't know what kind of raid guild you are in, but Shamans are there to HEAL, not take unnecessary damage by being in melee range or wasting mana throwing shocks around. If the raid has too many healers, you bring less healers and more DPS; you don't add gimp DPS by having healing classes start whacking things.
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I call BS on this one. Our last MC run, we had about 6 total Priests in the raid, 2 healing Druids, 3 or 4 Paladins, and stuffed to the gills with DPS. We completed MC, from first pull to downing Rag, in just under 3 hours. Give us a little better gear, and we'll be looking at 2 hours.

And by the way, during that run, there were a number of comments on TS coming out of priests like, "HOLY FIRE!" When priests start saying things like that, it means they're bored because there's not enough need for healing. Hell, the only spice during that run for healers was when we ended up with 2 dogs, 2 giants, and a surger and we still made it through that without wiping.

If you're running BWL like you indicate and are decked out, you don't need that much healing as you seem to think. You also have other ranged spell attacks besides shocks that should be a little more efficient in nature.

They are looking at the Shaman now - Artega - 02-27-2006

Rinnhart,Feb 27 2006, 03:09 PM Wrote:ACCEPT YOUR FATE- JOIN WITH THE OVERMIND. YOU HAVE BEEN ERRANT TOO LONG.
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Rinnhart wins the thread.