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+--- Thread: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 (/thread-13460.html)
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - kandrathe - 10-28-2011
(10-27-2011, 05:30 PM)RTM Wrote:Aha. Some friends and I occasionally play HL2 till wee hours of the morning, and eventually, I'm the one getting motion sickness. I especially get it if I'm dead, and then watching someone else until I respawn.(10-27-2011, 04:49 PM)mommie Wrote: I pre-ordered it but not sure if i will be able to enjoy it. I have all the games but have only played about 1 hr of each in 15-20 min time spans. So hoping that this one will be different. They make me sick, headache and nausea after about 20 mins. I have tried so many different settings and solutions, anyone have any ideas?
I had the same problems with Half-life games when no other FPS ever gave me trouble. The solution for me was to use console commands to adjust the FOV (field of view, I think?). Apparently it's narrower in the Half-life series than in other FPS's.
I don't recall having a problem in Morrowind and Oblivion, so I never bothered seeing if it could be adjusted or if it's even possible to adjust it. Might be worth looking into if you haven't already.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - RTM - 10-28-2011
(10-28-2011, 04:20 AM)Drasca Wrote:(10-27-2011, 05:30 PM)RTM Wrote: I had the same problems with Half-life games when no other FPS ever gave me trouble. The solution for me was to use console commands to adjust the FOV (field of view, I think?). Apparently it's narrower in the Half-life series than in other FPS's.
FOV in TES 3/4 and FO3/NV games is 75 degrees and can be changed in the defaults.ini file in the game installation folder. Useful when you have widescreen.
Interesting, the HL series is 70 degrees which is pretty close so I'm surprised I didn't get sick from the TES games. Might be the faster pace of action in HL. Apparently normal human FOV is 90 degrees, so in these games it's like you're running around wearing really weak binoculars. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me queasy.
I played Morrowind for hundreds of hours (not counting the time in the editor making my own houses) and never finished the main quest. I got bored of Oblivion after a few weeks. The leveling system was crap in conjunction with the fact that the monsters in the world leveled with you, which meant that if you didn't want to get slaughtered every time you stepped into a portal or dungeon, you'd have to choose skills that you DIDN'T want to use when you created your character. The copy-paste dungeons and fast travel (an optional feature sure, but I am weak when it comes to not using things like that) didn't help the longevity.
I have high hopes for Skyrim, especially after reading/watching various previews. I like the thiefy-type characters, but if I play like I play most other RPG's, I'll probably create about 10 different characters to experiment with stuff, get sick of the first hour of gameplay, and then shelve the game.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Concillian - 10-28-2011
I played Morrowind for a few weeks at probably 20 hours a week. A lot of time doing, as Jester noted, really stupid things to level specific skills and figuring out that the leveling mechanics were completely ack-basswards and made no sense in terms of trying to advance your character's power relative to the enemies.
I didn't progress the story much and eventually put it down. Never even picked up Oblivion. Skyrim looks more interesting, and I need a game that will showcase PC power (look pretty) better than WoW or Diablo III will, and seem to have zero interest in FPS games anymore. So I'm considering it.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Taem - 10-29-2011
Thought this was a movie. I'm so out of the loop. That's what not having cable television does too you I suppose. You miss all the great ads. Funny thing is, I don't feel like I'm missing a thing, and barely have enough time as it is to do even the little things I would like to do.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Treesh - 10-29-2011
(10-29-2011, 04:39 AM)Taem Wrote: Thought this was a movie. I'm so out of the loop. That's what not having cable television does too you I suppose. You miss all the great ads. Funny thing is, I don't feel like I'm missing a thing, and barely have enough time as it is to do even the little things I would like to do.
There were ads for Skyrim on TV? =D I couldn't tell you the last time I actually watched TV, except for The Daily Show on Hulu. Oh, Doctor Who counts as well, even if it's in hiatus at the moment. I generally don't even know of upcoming games unless someone points them out to me or they are made by companies that have made games that I REALLY liked before and so I'm following them on an RSS feed. I suppose I miss out on some really good games this way, but if I don't know about them, I can't miss them anyway. =D Same for movies really. I just don't bother with it until I can stream them. If my cable TV bill wasn't rolled into the rent, I would have gotten rid of it in a heartbeat. It's just far too pointless to really spend money on.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Rhydderch Hael - 10-29-2011
I bought a new PC so I could run Skyrim and DIII on the thingy, and I may have went a little overboard with the hardware in an effort to future-proof the thing.
Specs
Recommended
Windows 7/Vista/XP PC (32 or 64 bit)
Quad-core Intel or AMD CPU processor
4GB System RAM
6GB free HDD space
DirectX 9.0c compatible NVIDIA or AMD ATI video card with 1GB of RAM: Nvidia GeForce GTX 260 or higher; ATI Radeon 4890 or higher
DirectX compatible sound card
Internet access for Steam activation
Minimum System Requirements
Windows 7/Vista/XP PC (32 or 64 bit)
Dual Core 2.0GHz or equivalent processor
2GB System RAM
6GB free HDD space
Direct X 9.0c compliant video card with 512 MB of RAM
DirectX compatible sound card
Internet access for Steam activation
My PC ate the Recommended specs for breakfast and was still hungry.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - RTM - 10-31-2011
Anyone want to take bets on what game-breaking bugs are going to be shipped in the base version of the game, and how long before a patch comes out? It can't possibly be worse than that one game that formatted your C: drive.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Treesh - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 12:07 AM)RTM Wrote: Anyone want to take bets on what game-breaking bugs are going to be shipped in the base version of the game, and how long before a patch comes out? It can't possibly be worse than that one game that formatted your C: drive.
I'm assuming they've already got a patch ready to go right now. =) I just always assume that the first time I run a game, any game, I'll have to download a patch first. Hell, even my Xbox 360 games generally have a patch waiting it seems even when I get a game the day of release.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Taem - 10-31-2011
I finally looked this game up. So its Elder Scrolls 5? I never played the first ones. Are they anything like Dragon Age, because to be perfectly honest, that was one of the boringest, sandboxed games I had ever played in my life. I truly despise SP games with the progressive machine-style advancement system:
>Gain experience to get stronger.
>Monsters in new ares are stronger to compensate.
>Gain better weapons.
>Monsters gain new powers and are hard to defeat.
>Repeat.
In these games, you NEVER actually get any stronger - it is only an illusion - because the monsters keep getting stronger, thus you are stuck on that perpetual leveling-tredmill to nowhere, always "challenged", but is that fun? The monsters may change skins, but they are still the same old sandboxed things you've been fighting since level 1. Sandboxed AI does not change the fact that your fighting against the computer. It's hard to find a good game nowadays.
I'd say the only SP RPG I really enjoyed was Baulders Gate 1 and 2 - I really felt like I was exploring and on an adventure. Getting more powerful was merely a sub-sect of the overall experience of exploring the world around you, but nevertheless, the experience component of the game was also done very well and was not just some added on after-thought. Exploring game - the ones where you cannot level (i.e. just about everything on consoles) - tend to be just as bad as your standard SP RPG IMO, just walking around mindlessly bashing everything that crosses your path without anything to gain from it. I really tried hard to get into Prince of Persia: Sands of Time when it came out because most gaming sites gave it a 9.0 out of 10. I just couldn't understand why "everyone" felt it so grand when I was bored out of my mind. I quit after trying the game for several hours a day for one week. It felt like a huge let down and big waste of money and time. I'd say that this is the main reason I can't stand single-player games, and haven't really sat down to play one and found myself enjoying one since I was a teenager (with the exception of BG1 and 2). I don't know if it's the multiplayer component that makes game special, or the way the game is put together like BG1 and 2. I can't put my finger on it, but I do know that games most people would give 10-stars, I wouldn't even give a nod.
Having said that, do you think the Elder Scroll series is any good? Lol, and no, this is not a setup to some bashing. I'm asking because I'm curious as to what are the highlights people who want to play this game are looking forward to.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Rhydderch Hael - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 04:31 AM)Taem Wrote: I finally looked this game up. So its Elder Scrolls 5? I never played the first ones. Are they anything like Dragon Age, because to be perfectly honest, that was one of the boringest, sandboxed games I had ever played in my life. I truly despise SP games with the progressive machine-style advancement system:Elder Scrolls 4 was like that. Elder Scrolls 3 was not.
>Gain experience to get stronger.
>Monsters in new ares are stronger to compensate.
>Gain better weapons.
>Monsters gain new powers and are hard to defeat.
>Repeat.
In these games, you NEVER actually get any stronger - it is only an illusion - because the monsters keep getting stronger, thus you are stuck on that perpetual leveling-tredmill to nowhere, always "challenged", but is that fun? The monsters may change skins, but they are still the same old sandboxed things you've been fighting since level 1. Sandboxed AI does not change the fact that your fighting against the computer. It's hard to find a good game nowadays.
Not too sure which path Elder Scrolls 5 will follow in that regard.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - NuurAbSaal - 10-31-2011
From my experience with Oblivion, you really have to try it to see if you might enjoy it. Of my friends that enjoy large-scale RPGs, about half loved it to bits, 40% thought it was ok-to-yeah...ok and 10% hated it for various reasons. If asked beforehand, I could not have told you which of my friends would end up in which group. Well, I could have, but I'd have been mostly wrong. There is the bit about the monster-leveling system being exactly what you despise to worry about though.
So, if you own a 360, my advice would be to rent.
Wow, this has been amazingly unhelpful :o
take care
Tarabulus
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Treesh - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 04:31 AM)Taem Wrote: Having said that, do you think the Elder Scroll series is any good? Lol, and no, this is not a setup to some bashing. I'm asking because I'm curious as to what are the highlights people who want to play this game are looking forward to.
I played 2, 3 and 4 (Daggerfall, Morrowind + 2 expansions, and Oblivion w/ the expansion and the Knights of the Nine add-on, respectively).
2 had a ton of bugs, but was immensely fun despite them. You could buy your own ship, but anything you would put into containers would disappear so instead of really decorating, you just threw everything into a pile on the floor. Thievery was very lucrative and gave me a lot of enjoyment. Don't ask me anything about the storyline though. I just ran around and stole things mostly until I finally decided that maybe I should actually finish the game.
3 had housing, but it was quite limited so I just used the construction set - basically the world editor that the devs used came bundled with the game. That's what really set 3 apart. There were still tons of side quests that you could do. You could just go out wandering and dungeon crawl if you didn't want to do any questing right then. Thievery was nerfed slightly, but still enjoyable. That game I didn't actually finish until the 4th game was going to be out soon so I made a character who just did the main storyline and nothing else just so I could say I actually finished it. There were some monsters and hostile people who would completely wipe the floor with you if you went into that cave too early. It was a satisfying challenge to beat them before I got too big though. The environment sucked me in though. When it was storming really hard outside or the big sandstorms hit in the desert areas, I stayed indoors as much as possible. One of my biggest time sinks in the game itself (I ended up spending more time in the editor creating rather than playing the game for a while there) was taunting NPCs who were wearing pretty dresses and convincing them to fight me so I could kill them and take their clothes off their corpses without being slapped with a fine for murder. I was a big collector of fancy, shiny things. =)
4 was a bit disappointing for me, but I still ended up enjoying it. It didn't feel like a TES game though. Thievery was completely pointless so I had to just give up on that. As I leveled, the monsters leveled so it really never felt any different from when I was a wee baby fighting rats in the sewers. Most of the time, I really didn't care if I helped out the NPCs or not unlike in 2 and 3. I did have to laugh at some of their shenanigans though thanks to the improved AI. I really didn't like the changes to the melee system though. Yeah, they added in "power attacks" that you could do when you got skilled enough and depending on how you moved while attacking, but meh. It just wasn't as satisfying to go in and just beat them into submission. You also couldn't just taunt and mock people into starting a fight with you so that little side game wasn't there for me. The Dark Brotherhood questline started out FANTASTIC. I loved having to actually do the stealthy stuff and not get caught by anyone. Then when you got to the point where you picked up your assignments at drop points, it was just poor tedium. Go here, kill X, go to a new place to get your money and new assignment, repeat ad naseum. Bleh. In 3, the stuff that had magical properties had pretty little glows so I went around collecting that stuff, but they removed the glowing in 4. I could decorate to my heart's content in 3 because of the lack of gravity. I still have the screenshots of my decorated house. Basically, I decorated by dropping shiny things, lamps, candles, pillows, all over the floors and walls. In 4, when I got my multiple houses, to decorate you just got more money and bought ready made furniture sets for each room. I ended up sort of decorating by just keeping some stuff that I got from doing stuff on the main quest, but it just didn't satisfy that interior decorating itch like 3 did. It was just as open ended questwise as 2 and 3, but there ended up being less other stuff for me to actually do in game. Oh, my other problem with 4 is that the mobs just really don't drop much in the way of interesting loot. There were a couple of dungeons I went into that actually had folks dropping fancy little magical stuff (although that toon didn't actually wear any of it), but most of the time I never saw anything exciting so it didn't even have the "shopping" factor that Diablo 1 and 2 did. There just really didn't feel like there was actual progress with my characters in 4, unlike 2 and 3.
For 5, basically I'm looking at it going to be more like an FPS than a TES game. Yes, I can dual wield spells (which looks like it'll be fun as hell), but the rest of it, unless they've given pretty things to steal or something else to do besides just quest, it's basically just going to be spoon fed questing.
I definitely second the suggestion that if you have an Xbox to rent it first to see if it's something that's going to hold your attention or not.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Thenryb - 10-31-2011
I will definitely give Skyrim a try. I enjoyed Oblivion once I installed the OOO overhaul to overcome the stupid leveling system. I never played any of the prior TES games. Since Oblivion I have played other Bethesda games, like Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas (farmed out to Obsidian). All Bethesda games seem horrendously buggy but the modding community is quick to provide fixes. I have never played any game since GoldenEye on a console. I will probably need a new computer to play Skyrim or D3 for that matter. As for D3, I am sure I will buy it but am not at all excited about its release. It could be I am just finally outgrowing gaming
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - kandrathe - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 03:26 PM)Thenryb Wrote: It could be I am just finally outgrowing gamingI often have thought that over the past 37 years. Then, I realize I'm just bored with the games currently available on the machines I currently have. And... with kids, and work, I don't have as much time as I did when I was younger.
I'm not so keen on the downsizing to smart phones and return of the retro games craze. There is merit in examining how much of gaming has become mindless decision trees leading to various cut scenes, as opposed to having ultimate influence over the win/loss. Too many games have devolved into interactive movies, rather than presenting any mentally challenging gamesmanship. Crappy games aren't worth my time. I don't need to be the protagonist to progressively unlock and relive the plot of the last movie, cartoon or book. I'll just re-watch, or re-read their last adventure and be done with it.
I think we actually live at an interesting time. Processors will be capable of presenting us with nearly VR, and eventually I/O devices will make our interactions more and more immersive. This may or may not involve neuroprosthetic (Brain Computer Interface) devices. (I'm certainly more willing to experiment with non-invasive BCI technology). I believe that in the future, one difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" will be determined by who is plugged into the net real-time.
We won't need a smart phone. We will be smart phones. And the new classroom issue would be... "Mr. Jones are you paying attention to class, or are you off on some fantasy adventure in your mind?"
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - LavCat - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 05:23 PM)kandrathe Wrote: And the new classroom issue would be... "Mr. Jones are you paying attention to class, or are you off on some fantasy adventure in your mind?"
That one is at least as old as teachers, school, and students.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Zyn - 10-31-2011
TES 5: Skyrim will have a system where more powerful enemies are populated throughout the world as you level. That does not mean, however, that leveling automatically makes enemies stronger. For example - If your character is level 6 and fighting level 6 skeletons, and then hits level 7, the skeletons will not be level 7 as well. You may, however, find a skeletal warlord now appear from time to time that is level 7. This should help in solving the issue that TES 4:Oblivion had - where I was level 56 and getting my ass handed to me by some random wilderness wolf (Surely it was an extra from those damned "Twilight" novels).
In response to Taem, I personally cannot wait for the game for a variety of reasons:
First and foremost, all of the past games (with the exception of TES 2: Daggerfall) have been extremely immersing experiences. You can almost literally play any archetype you want with very limited exceptions. Most of these exceptions seem to be further diluted with TES 5: Skyrim's skillset and engine.
Want to be a sneaking assassin who strikes from the shadows to thin the ranks? Thats fine, just be sure to pay close attention to 'Security', 'Sneak', and '1hWeapons' skills. Want to be a Ranger, running across the wilderness and gathering herbs whilst slaying foes from range with your bow? Go for it! Pay attention to your 'Alchemy' skill to help identify positive and negative effects of various plant life you can pick, and the appropriate other skills that go along with it.
You also can almost do anything you want, which is a great feature in a world as grand as Morrowind and Oblivion (TES 3 and 4, respectively). I had a pillow collection where I filled a room with random pillows I stole. I munchkin-ed one character so thoroughly in TES3: Morrowind (talking Mudcrab, anyone?), that I killed Vivec (a God) and stored in soul in a Grand Soul Gem I had stolen off of the body of the Mage guild's leader. Granted, it was my 4th time through the game so I didn't have a lot to experience outside of what I had already done - but this was also done about a year after I first bought it (so the replay value is there). You can pickpocket people, explore a huge amount of dungeons all throughout the wilderness, or practice creating your own spells. Get involved with local politics or uprisings, choose sides, even double cross them if you want to - and every decision has a clear ramification for your actions programmed into the game. Are you running around wantonly killing innocent people? Expect a huge bounty on your head and guards to attack you on sight (I hope you trained 'Sneak'!). Also the next time you sleep you should expect a visit from a "Dark Brotherhood" member, a shadowy group of assassins looking to find a new recruit.
The spell creation aspect is gone with TES 5: Skyrim (I think it was gone in TES:4 Oblivion, tbh). However, the skills work completely differently. In previous TES games you had to designate a list of 6 or so primary skills. Every time you gained proficiency in one of these skills, you would gain a portion of a level. If you gained proficiency in a skill that was "Primary" for you, you would still become better at the task but you would not be compensated with a portion of leveling being completed.
In Skyrim, the nicest thing in my opinion, is that every skill proficiency gained goes towards completion of your level/experience. The higher the skill, the more you gain towards your experience by leveling the skill. So, not only did they remove the limitation of having to choose 6 skills you want your archetype to be based around (or 6 skills that would directly effect your overall level/experience) - they made it so that the higher the skill is, the quicker you level.
This is a fantastic change because if you're playing your archetype the way you envisioned the character being played, than he/she should have high skills in things you do regularly. So, if you're a sneaky assassin - you should be sneaking around a lot, and in turn have a higher Sneak skill. Then, when you gain more proficiency in Sneaking, your character becomes stronger than they would if you had gained proficiency with something that doesn't really fit your archetype such as 'Repair'.
It really sounds like it will be a case of start the game, create a character that looks like you always wanted and just go. Do what you envisioned the character doing, and you'll be rewarded. Without even going into the political scheming and double crossing that has been present in the past two games' main quest lines - the game simply is just too great for me to pass on.
TL;DR - You're missing out!
-Z
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - kandrathe - 10-31-2011
(10-31-2011, 05:57 PM)LavCat Wrote:Especially when we were put in alphabetical order, seating Tami Engel in front of me... Ah, high school...(10-31-2011, 05:23 PM)kandrathe Wrote: And the new classroom issue would be... "Mr. Jones are you paying attention to class, or are you off on some fantasy adventure in your mind?"
That one is at least as old as teachers, school, and students.
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Treesh - 11-01-2011
(10-31-2011, 06:52 PM)Zyn Wrote: The spell creation aspect is gone with TES 5: Skyrim (I think it was gone in TES:4 Oblivion, tbh).
Well, technically spell creation and enchanting was still in the game, but you had to be in the mage's guild and do enough quests for them to get a high enough rank for them to trust you to not blow yourself up. It bothered me that if I wanted to enchant something, even my straight up fighters had to go help out the mages. I couldn't do that since there used to be animosity between those two factions.
(10-31-2011, 06:52 PM)Zyn Wrote: In Skyrim, the nicest thing in my opinion, is that every skill proficiency gained goes towards completion of your level/experience. The higher the skill, the more you gain towards your experience by leveling the skill. So, not only did they remove the limitation of having to choose 6 skills you want your archetype to be based around (or 6 skills that would directly effect your overall level/experience) - they made it so that the higher the skill is, the quicker you level.
This is a fantastic change because if you're playing your archetype the way you envisioned the character being played, than he/she should have high skills in things you do regularly. So, if you're a sneaky assassin - you should be sneaking around a lot, and in turn have a higher Sneak skill. Then, when you gain more proficiency in Sneaking, your character becomes stronger than they would if you had gained proficiency with something that doesn't really fit your archetype such as 'Repair'.
What worries me about this change though is in Morrowind, I would end up leveling non-combat skills fiddling around and then I'd end up too high of a level compared to my fighting skills and get my butt handed to me repeatedly. For instance, if I made the mistake of having Sneak as a major skill, I'd fly up levels but it was hard going if I had to actually fight anything because my short blade skill was too low compared to my level. You basically had to make sure that the things that will naturally go up quickly weren't part of your major skills. I can see the same thing happening with Skyrim, but I can't really control it like I could in Morrowind. We'll see though. I just end up doing too much non-combat stuff in the TES games. =)
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Tris - 11-01-2011
Hehe at level issues. That is why you lay out your levels in advance
Would go and pick up the two nearly broken glass daggers from the vendors, repair them, and sell to everybody's favorite scamp. That alone has bought me many levels Last time I really played MW seriously, had a level 72 archer type. That made Blood Moon really "interesting," given how it scaled for difficulty. Would have Packs of 8-12 wolves at a time. That's also why I had backup AoE spells.
One thing I always had problems with in Morrowind was the incredible number of spell reflecting opponents. My last char, a level 43 Altmer caster really struggled, even with all clothing/jewels with +Int or Willpower. With rediculous magicka, maxed Willpower, and maxed Destruction, there wasn't much she couldn't cast for offense.
However, it hurt quite badly when reflected back.
Also some truly magic immune critters; Hungers come to mind. Wound up going more toward fighter/archer than mage.
In some ways, I actually prefer MW to Oblivion. Like the complexity, the greater freedom to build as you choose. The ability to actually train effectively
Guess just call me nostalgic. I still play D1 too... so... (level 44 LAR).And, with various graphics enhancements, MW still looks pretty good.
Will admit that watching Skellies explode when hit with a fireball is fun compared to the generic fire-blast effects shown in Morrowind.
What I don't miss are those damnable cliff racers. Too bad I don't think there's a way to remove those things. At Level 72 would spend more time one-shotting that stuff than walking in some places. At one point I made a 100% Chameleon stealth suit, great for getting around that stuff.
BAH TES5 sounds like it's a dumbed-down version of MW. I really liked the complexity. Who says I want to be a sneaky thief type that goes around poking people with daggers? What if I want to be a sneaky type that that goes around decapitating folks with a dai-katana(sic)?
RE: So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11 - Treesh - 11-01-2011
(11-01-2011, 01:32 AM)Tris Wrote: Hehe at level issues. That is why you lay out your levels in advance
That was one of the things I really hated about DII. I just don't like having to plan out everything in advance.
(11-01-2011, 01:32 AM)Tris Wrote: In some ways, I actually prefer MW to Oblivion.I prefer the gameplay of Morrowind to the gameplay of Oblivion, but I liked the less alien setting of Oblivion.
<snip>
Will admit that watching Skellies explode when hit with a fireball is fun compared to the generic fire-blast effects shown in Morrowind.
What I don't miss are those damnable cliff racers. Too bad I don't think there's a way to remove those things.
LOVE the Havok physics engine of Oblivion for monster deaths. Don't like it when I'm trying to place fabric clothes in a pile or when some fancy little weapon goes clattering down the hill after I kill the owner.
There was an add-on that got rid of the cliff-racers completely, iirc. =D Cliff-racers and slaughterfish annoyed the ever living crap out of me.